"It's for close range"
- Thread starter Bill DeShivs
- Start date
deadcoyote
New member
I agree with the original poster....
My duty weapon only has a 3" barrel (plainclothes) and all the uniformed guys give me hell about how its worthless past 10 yards. I just shot two perfect 200/200 quals today and 18 of the 40 rounds fired are from the 25 yard line.
My duty weapon only has a 3" barrel (plainclothes) and all the uniformed guys give me hell about how its worthless past 10 yards. I just shot two perfect 200/200 quals today and 18 of the 40 rounds fired are from the 25 yard line.
I too agree that there are lots of excuses for what I consider poor shooting. But I think people are pressed for time and proper instruction and practice, so they make do.
If my targets are at 10-yards and in, I tend to be practicing firing lots of rounds FAST. One hand, two-hand, weak-hand, whatever. Not much point in trying to put them all through one hole at that range; I CAN, so let's work on some speed.
I'd much rather plink at the 50-75 foot mark lately. One of my favorite things is to put 6 rounds of .22LR into the largest 25-yard steel plate (10" or so) from my M-18 as fast as I can. Double-tapping or just shooting them fast. Doesn't work as well with any of the centerfires because they set the plate to swinging and defeat the speed work. Heck, I'd be cursing myself if I missed that plate shooting my baby Glock one-handed at that range.
And really, don't tell me shooting anything past 20-feet is "murder" when I'm shooting small targets at 25 yards. Who knows, maybe I am practicing for deer hunting season. Maybe I want to take my M-18 squirrel hunting. Maybe I enjoy making clay pigeons break on the berm at that range. Or maybe I love ringing the steel from 50-yards with my DA revolvers (or baby Glock!
).
Just because I am shooting a handgun doesn't mean I'm only practicing for self-defense. And don't judge me by how far away I'm shooting; I can shoot COM advancing, retreating and sidestepping from the 7-yard line. I can also hit COM on an IDPA target from 50 yards.
Lastly, I think being out in the woods, on trails and on powerline cuts, and carrying a pistol during hunting season, it would be useful to be able to hit something beyond arm's length.
If my targets are at 10-yards and in, I tend to be practicing firing lots of rounds FAST. One hand, two-hand, weak-hand, whatever. Not much point in trying to put them all through one hole at that range; I CAN, so let's work on some speed.
I'd much rather plink at the 50-75 foot mark lately. One of my favorite things is to put 6 rounds of .22LR into the largest 25-yard steel plate (10" or so) from my M-18 as fast as I can. Double-tapping or just shooting them fast. Doesn't work as well with any of the centerfires because they set the plate to swinging and defeat the speed work. Heck, I'd be cursing myself if I missed that plate shooting my baby Glock one-handed at that range.
And really, don't tell me shooting anything past 20-feet is "murder" when I'm shooting small targets at 25 yards. Who knows, maybe I am practicing for deer hunting season. Maybe I want to take my M-18 squirrel hunting. Maybe I enjoy making clay pigeons break on the berm at that range. Or maybe I love ringing the steel from 50-yards with my DA revolvers (or baby Glock!
).Just because I am shooting a handgun doesn't mean I'm only practicing for self-defense. And don't judge me by how far away I'm shooting; I can shoot COM advancing, retreating and sidestepping from the 7-yard line. I can also hit COM on an IDPA target from 50 yards.
Lastly, I think being out in the woods, on trails and on powerline cuts, and carrying a pistol during hunting season, it would be useful to be able to hit something beyond arm's length.
Hellbilly5000
New member
I read an article in Guns and Blammo about a guy who was using a new 9mm 1911 to target shoot 100 yards +. I would post a link but there website seems kinda annoying and hard to find something specific that you are looking for
That's NOT grasping at straws, I've seen it happen personally. Moving on... hey you ARE correct that anyone WHO HAS THE CAPABILITY and wants you dead enough can cause you to "be got". If some chump gang-banger wannabe wants you dead, but has more balls than brains or skill, then he'll probably be a dumbass and try something stupid. It could be short-range ambush you from around the corner (situational awareness). It could be driving down the road (situational awareness). It could be at the gas station, or grocery store, or at a friends house (sit. awareness, etc., etc.).
Being required to be engage at distances greater than 20' certainly arise in more than one or two scenarios. You can say what you want, but you can't say with any form of logical authority unless you've gone through that situation.
Now if it were the mob, I'd be dead. Thank God it isn't
I think I would stick a gun in someones face if they were walking toward me at a normal pace and would not stop at about 12-15 feet. Walking rapidly 20 feet. Running 30+ feet. And no you do not shoot them, until they do do something stupid, like try to attack you. Then yes, you do shoot them. It would be hard call, always a different situation. Someone who appeared to be just plane insane running at you like he was in the olympics? What do you do? Its one of the reasons I carry pepper spray too. As for impersonating an officer, probably not the best choice of words when screaming stop now with a gun drawn alot of people would probably already think you were a UC, so it would be unnecessary.
Bill DeShivs
New member
"I'll bet Bill never thought his question would start a debate like this one."
Sure I did! That's why I posted it.
Shooters should push their limits. If you can draw, put several round COM quickly at 25-30 yards-you can do it much better at 7 yards. Pure and simple-if you only practice up close, you are doing yourself a disservice. Learn to shoot. Don't make excuses.
Sure I did! That's why I posted it.
Shooters should push their limits. If you can draw, put several round COM quickly at 25-30 yards-you can do it much better at 7 yards. Pure and simple-if you only practice up close, you are doing yourself a disservice. Learn to shoot. Don't make excuses.
This has been covered before, but I'll go through it again.
Yelling "Police!! Show me your hands!!" isn't the same as impersonating a cop.
Did you show a phony badge? No.
Did you claim to be a cop? No.
Were you calling the cops? Yes.
The technique, if you want to call it a technique, is taught by several of the top firearms trainers including cops and former cops.
While I've read (on Internet forums) that you'll be arrested for impersonating a cop, I never heard of it actually happening.
In the original scenario, the guy obviously speaks English. The CCW citizen obviously sees him as a threat and his aproach as the prelude to an attack. In Florida, fear of death or serious bodily harm is justification for the use - certainly the threat - of deadly force. It's not that way in every state. YMMV.
There have been several well-publicized instances of drunks who got lost, picked the wrong house, broke in and were killed by the homeowner. The drunk didn't intend to hurt anyone. That's not a factor. He managed to frighten the homeowner and that's what matters.
Fear of death or serious bodily injury is justification for the use of deadly force.
Yelling "Police!! Show me your hands!!" isn't the same as impersonating a cop.
Did you show a phony badge? No.
Did you claim to be a cop? No.
Were you calling the cops? Yes.
The technique, if you want to call it a technique, is taught by several of the top firearms trainers including cops and former cops.
While I've read (on Internet forums) that you'll be arrested for impersonating a cop, I never heard of it actually happening.
In the original scenario, the guy obviously speaks English. The CCW citizen obviously sees him as a threat and his aproach as the prelude to an attack. In Florida, fear of death or serious bodily harm is justification for the use - certainly the threat - of deadly force. It's not that way in every state. YMMV.
There have been several well-publicized instances of drunks who got lost, picked the wrong house, broke in and were killed by the homeowner. The drunk didn't intend to hurt anyone. That's not a factor. He managed to frighten the homeowner and that's what matters.
Fear of death or serious bodily injury is justification for the use of deadly force.
Southern Rebel
New member
+1
To quote my 6yr old granddaughter, in the midst of a rainstorm:
"Granddad, we gotta make a run for it! Uh, Granddad --- CAN YOU RUN?"
David Armstrong
Moderator
Perhaps you could identify any top firearms trainer, cop or otherwise, who says drawing on somebody who is 30' away from you and just walking your direction in a public area is a good idea.
Or just doesn't care about the loony tune yelling and hollering about a bunch of nonsense that has nothing to do with him.
That wasn't the situation.
Not the same thing at all.
Maybe the guy just wants the time or directions. If he's an innocent, reasonable guy, he'll see you're nervous and stop. I've had exactly that happen at least 4 times in the last 20 years. Actually, one of them might have intended to attack me, but stopped when I told him to. Either way, no trouble. No need to display a weapon.
Last fall, my wife and I were loading our groceries in the van outside a Target. A woman approached from 50-60 ft away asking for directions. My wife and I both turned for a quick check behind us. I was so proud of her! The woman asked where I-95 was (it was in sight, 300 yds away). Kinda suspicious. My wife just pointed. We got in the car (carefully) and left.
The old, "Hey, you got the time?", or "Can you tell me how to get to _____?" is a standard way to get close to someone so you can mug them. The attack won't take place until he's too close for you to react. Muggers don't want a fight. They want you distracted so they can get your stuff and make a quick escape.
Hey, it's your call.
One thing's for sure; if I have to put my hand on my gun, I'll be calling 911. I want to be the one reporting trouble. I'll be the one giving my description to the dispatcher. I'll be the one the cop's looking for when he wants to find the complainant. I'll be the one saying, "Officer, I'm the complainant".
LoneStarWings
New member
When I first got my handgun (S&W M&P .40) I shot at 7 yards almost exclusively. Now I find myself almost exclusively on the 15 and 25 yard benches. It's just more fun, if not as practical as the shorter distances.
1st of all, have you ever heard of any non-police actually using this technique?
I never have.
2nd, cops and firearms trainers are not lawyers or judges.
What matters is whether or not a jury will think that you were impersonating a cop.
And if I was on the jury, I would say that you were.
Again, what matters is whether or not a jury would see the guy as a threat warranting deadly force.
Who wants to go in to a courtroom and say "yeah, I shot him because I felt he was a deadly threat. After all, he would not stop walking toward me and he wouldn't show me his hands....in a public parking lot".
If I was on the jury, I would call it murder.
Breaking in to a person's home is certainly not the same as walking toward someone in a public parking lot.
The very notion that you would point a gun at someone in a public parking lot simply because he was walking your way and wanting to ask a question is totally insane.
easyG, you can argue with Mas Ayoob and John Farnam. Both have taught the “Police, show me your hands” approach and think there’s zero chance you’ll be charged with anything. Somehow I value their opinion more than yours.
No one has suggested that you point a gun at someone in a public parking lot simply because he's walking your way and wanting to ask a question. That wasn’t the original question, at least not the way I read it. If I’m approached by someone who I consider threatening and they refuse to stop and refuse to show they’re not holding a weapon, I’ll be responding any damn way I think is necessary. If violence isn’t needed, great, but I will be calling 911 and reporting a suspicious person who I believe may be dangerous.
You do whatever you like. I'll be somewhere far away ignoring you.
No one has suggested that you point a gun at someone in a public parking lot simply because he's walking your way and wanting to ask a question. That wasn’t the original question, at least not the way I read it. If I’m approached by someone who I consider threatening and they refuse to stop and refuse to show they’re not holding a weapon, I’ll be responding any damn way I think is necessary. If violence isn’t needed, great, but I will be calling 911 and reporting a suspicious person who I believe may be dangerous.
You do whatever you like. I'll be somewhere far away ignoring you.
Absolutely great thread Bill, I haven’t had this much entertainment since the first 9mil vs. 45 thread went on the boards years ago.
In all seriousness it is a great thread, I make my living with guns, the HANDGUN is a defensive weapon, last resort up close and personal. These scenario's of shooting handguns at range >25yards is horse hooey.
Do I shoot >25 yards? You Betcha, it’s tons of fun.
But in the real world your targets movin and it’s shootin back.
In all seriousness it is a great thread, I make my living with guns, the HANDGUN is a defensive weapon, last resort up close and personal. These scenario's of shooting handguns at range >25yards is horse hooey.
Do I shoot >25 yards? You Betcha, it’s tons of fun.
But in the real world your targets movin and it’s shootin back.