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"It's for close range"
- Thread starter Bill DeShivs
- Start date
David Armstrong
Moderator
While I agree with the basic tenor of your post, I think this particular phrase needs to be brought out for discussion. As it relates to gunfighting, the shooting skills needed at 25 yards have not been shown to translate to the 7 yard mark. In fact, some of the elements needed for good shooting at 25 yards can be detrimental to defending yourself within 7 yards.If you can hit a target at 25 yards, then 7 yards should be easy....
Having said that, I do practice with my small guns at 25 yards.
If you really want to humble yourself, ditch the bench rest or any other support you may be using and try rapid-fire, offhand, at 25 yards. Every time I go to the range, I try to fire at least three cylinders or so with my S&W snubbie this way. If I'm lucky, two out of three rounds will make it to paper, about half will land on the silhouette (somewhere), and maybe one in six makes it to the 8 ring or better. By rapid fire, I mean as fast as I can aim and fire - less than three seconds for six rounds.
The skill sets to shoot at 25 yards and 7 yards are two entirely very different things. Now does similar skills overlap between the two? Yup. That still doesn't negate the fact that you will not be using the same controlled fire on an attacker @ 7 yards and closing that you would use on a target @ 25 yards.
With that being said, I think both are important. I usually practice @ 10 or so yards or greater unless I practice a rapid draw and retreating fire. As for the "you can always escape @ 25 yards or greater"... I think that's BS. While I don't for a second think that justified SD engagements would occur very often beyond 15 or so yards, there ARE exceptions to the rule. We carry because we desire to be prepared. Why would I be only half prepared?
With that being said, I think both are important. I usually practice @ 10 or so yards or greater unless I practice a rapid draw and retreating fire. As for the "you can always escape @ 25 yards or greater"... I think that's BS. While I don't for a second think that justified SD engagements would occur very often beyond 15 or so yards, there ARE exceptions to the rule. We carry because we desire to be prepared. Why would I be only half prepared?
I usually start between five feet and five yards, and after a couple of shots I open the distance to between twenty and forty five feet; but that depends on what I am shooting. I usually shoot my derringer at close range because I actually want to hit something. I have noticed my shooting has improved since I started exercising.
McClintock
New member
Normally from 50 yards in, sometimes at 100 yards for fun.
I currently shoot PPC (Police Pistol Combat), in a couple different classes, and, depending on the class, ranges extend out to 50 yards.
As a result, I routinely practice at ranges from 7 to 50 yards (our outdoor range is only 50 yards, so I max out).
Sometimes when we shoot at the RCMP range indoors, we move the targets out to 100 yards. Now there's a challenge! Our club has done this on occasion, after the regular match is over, just for shiggles... the highest score I've seen out of 120 (12 rounds fired) is 86 (yup, I saw the target, because I didn't believe it either...) from an RCMP officer using a Smith 5906. I, on the other hand, shot a miserable 21 points with an M&P9 :barf: ... I was impressed that I even hit the dang thing at that range.
I currently shoot PPC (Police Pistol Combat), in a couple different classes, and, depending on the class, ranges extend out to 50 yards.
As a result, I routinely practice at ranges from 7 to 50 yards (our outdoor range is only 50 yards, so I max out).
Sometimes when we shoot at the RCMP range indoors, we move the targets out to 100 yards. Now there's a challenge! Our club has done this on occasion, after the regular match is over, just for shiggles... the highest score I've seen out of 120 (12 rounds fired) is 86 (yup, I saw the target, because I didn't believe it either...) from an RCMP officer using a Smith 5906. I, on the other hand, shot a miserable 21 points with an M&P9 :barf: ... I was impressed that I even hit the dang thing at that range.
Given that a running BG can cover 21 feet in about 2 seconds, and that we practice to draw and fire the first round in 2 seconds (or under), 7 yards is the MINIMUM we should practice from.
Most thugs and criminals don't show weapons when their prey is so far away that they might flee and escape.
It's not like a criminal is going to pull out his pistol or knife while he's 75 feet away and start running at you.
Robberies and muggings just don't occur at that distance.
Instead, he's going to use some excuse to get closer to you before he draws his weapon and attacks.
Consider the guy behind the counter at the local corner-store or the local gunshop,
or the guy waiting at a bus-stop,
or the guy at the ATM machine,
or the guy in an elevator or stairwell....
He is practically guaranteed not to be engaging targets at any distance beyond seven feet...not seven yards, but seven feet.
The notion that the average civilian shooter (not a soldier and not a cop and not a gangbanger) is ever going to engage targets at 20 or 25 yards is rather silly.
When I was a soldier I practiced shooting at longer distances as well as shorter distances.
But I wasn't paying for my ammo either....and I was getting paid to train and practice.
And it certainly was not unreasonable that I might have needed to engaged enemy soldiers at great distances.
But as a civilian, it just makes sense to spend my time and money practicing for the scenario that I'm most likely to actually encounter, and not some fantasy "high noon" scenario.
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In my opinion, its rather silly to base all of your defensive training on "scenarios" you can drum up in your head. Even if you practice for 1,000 scenarios, odds are against you that it will be one of the 100,000,000,000 specific scenarios that can actually happen. No two are the same.
How that applies to training, in my humble opinion, is not to think about the many ways an attacker may approach you, but how many ways you can accurately fire a handgun. This is how I have fun at the range. I'll shoot from the hip, I'll empty the clip as fast as I can, I'll use the left hand, I'll shift my stance left, right, move the target forward, back and find pretty much every awkward position I can to force a little muscle memory. But that's just me, I go for drills, not scenarios.
How that applies to training, in my humble opinion, is not to think about the many ways an attacker may approach you, but how many ways you can accurately fire a handgun. This is how I have fun at the range. I'll shoot from the hip, I'll empty the clip as fast as I can, I'll use the left hand, I'll shift my stance left, right, move the target forward, back and find pretty much every awkward position I can to force a little muscle memory. But that's just me, I go for drills, not scenarios.
KingEdward
New member
distance shooting for avg. Joe like myself could become real in a large parking garage and from behind cover and BG could be advancing from large distance and using cover.
it seems to me that I should be focused on accurate repeated hits with different hands and two hands from distances of about 3 yards out to about 25 yards (10 feet out to 75 feet). Beyond distances of 75 feet, I can and have shot fairly okay.
If I'm in CCW shooting beyond 75 feet away then either I've made a possibly questionable decision to shoot (is the guy holding a gun behind the fence 80 feet away a threat to me) or there is someone who has a long gun
leveled at me and evasion may not be the best option.
it seems to me that I should be focused on accurate repeated hits with different hands and two hands from distances of about 3 yards out to about 25 yards (10 feet out to 75 feet). Beyond distances of 75 feet, I can and have shot fairly okay.
If I'm in CCW shooting beyond 75 feet away then either I've made a possibly questionable decision to shoot (is the guy holding a gun behind the fence 80 feet away a threat to me) or there is someone who has a long gun
leveled at me and evasion may not be the best option.
Also bear in mind, for all that says you would never ever ever ever be involved in something over 20', that some people live in different circumstances. Yes, even civilians. For instance, let's say that you have received threats and even been in altercations because you witnessed a crime (been there). If someone has a personal vendetta against you, and it's not all about robbery, then the game can change quickly. It has nothing to do with a high noon ok corral shoot out.
I still think it's absurd to be prudent enough to carry a weapon, which statistically there is around a 1% chance of you ever using it, but then choose to ridicule someone who trains for something that falls outside of the parameters YOU place on a defensive shooting. ESPECIALLY given the fact that shooting at longer ranges generally help us to focus more on accuracy than flat out speed. I think you can take benifits from that back to likely SD distance practice and find that it helps your accuracy in addition to speed. But, the beauty of America is to each their own. Train how you see fit.
I still think it's absurd to be prudent enough to carry a weapon, which statistically there is around a 1% chance of you ever using it, but then choose to ridicule someone who trains for something that falls outside of the parameters YOU place on a defensive shooting. ESPECIALLY given the fact that shooting at longer ranges generally help us to focus more on accuracy than flat out speed. I think you can take benifits from that back to likely SD distance practice and find that it helps your accuracy in addition to speed. But, the beauty of America is to each their own. Train how you see fit.
Maybe if you're in the "witness protection program" and the mob has a price on your head....distance shooting for avg. Joe like myself could become real in a large parking garage and from behind cover and BG could be advancing from large distance and using cover.
but it really sounds like you're grasping at straws here.
Possibly questionable???If I'm in CCW shooting beyond 75 feet away then either I've made a possibly questionable decision to shoot (is the guy holding a gun behind the fence 80 feet away a threat to me) or there is someone who has a long gun
leveled at me and evasion may not be the best option.
Really grasping at straws here, but what the heck....If someone has a personal vendetta against you, and it's not all about robbery, then the game can change quickly. It has nothing to do with a high noon ok corral shoot out.
Anyone can be "got".
If someone wants you dead bad enough then you will be killed, regardless of your ability to hit targets at great distances.
Heck, you would probably never even see it coming.
+1 100%!But, the beauty of America is to each their own. Train how you see fit.
Heck, it doesn't matter to me if one trains to shoot while blind-folded riding on a unicycle....but they should know that such training is far far from realistic.
KingEdward
New member
yes, I did grasp at some straws.
I agree with you Easy that an SD situation in all reality will be at close range.
One's situational awareness can make all the difference.
I agree with you Easy that an SD situation in all reality will be at close range.
One's situational awareness can make all the difference.
Instead, he's going to use some excuse to get closer to you before he draws his weapon and attacks.
If I can use situational awareness and a command voice, "Stop! That's close enough!", and avoid a gunfight, all the better. I'd rather engage at 21 feet than 2.
rantingredneck
New member
No arguments here. I routinely shoot all my guns (including my LCR and LCP) to 25 yards.
At the outdoor range I typically use 8" cheapo paper plates as targets. I can typically keep all 6 out of my LCP or all 5 out of my SP101/LCR on the plate at that range.
At the outdoor range I typically use 8" cheapo paper plates as targets. I can typically keep all 6 out of my LCP or all 5 out of my SP101/LCR on the plate at that range.
I agree.If I can use situational awareness and a command voice, "Stop! That's close enough!", and avoid a gunfight, all the better. I'd rather engage at 21 feet than 2.
But not all criminals are stupid.
They know that you can't legally shoot someone just for failing to stop walking toward you.
For example....
You're in a parking lot walking toward your car.
A guy starts walking toward you saying "Hey man, let me ask you a question".
You don't see any weapons but he does have his hands in his jacket pockets.
He's about forty feet away and quickly walking toward you.
Despite you saying "that's close enough", "stop", etc..., he continues toward you.
What can you do?
You can't legally shoot him at twenty feet away for simply walking toward you against your wishes.
Heck, even brandishing your weapon can get you in trouble if you can't prove that you had good reason.
Heck, he could even be an undercover cop who thinks that you're the one that looks suspicious.
What you end up with is the typical attack situation....
You can't draw and fire upon him until he draws a weapon or attacks you in some manner.
And he will most likely not draw a weapon or attack you until he is close enough to actually make a viable attack.
This is why most real life shootings seldom occurs until both parties are very close to each other.
You can't legally shoot him at twenty feet away for simply walking toward you against your wishes.
Your points are well taken. However, that's where the statement "I was in fear of my life" comes into play. If you can prove a legitimate fear that the guy was going to harm you, then you're justified. Let's face it, only a stupe, craze, or perp will walk up to someone against their wishes if they're obviously ready to defend themselves. Again, it's that fine line to walk. My tagline says a lot to that.
If you don't present or flash, nothing says you can't have your hand on your weapon in concealment.
You're in a parking lot walking toward your car.
A guy starts walking toward you saying "Hey man, let me ask you a question".
You don't see any weapons but he does have his hands in his jacket pockets.
He's about forty feet away and quickly walking toward you.
Despite you saying "that's close enough", "stop", etc..., he continues toward you.
What can you do?
You can put your hand on your gun an yell, "Police!! Show me your hands!!
If he passes the 30' line, cover him. If he gets closer and you still can't see his hands .........
Here's the question:
Would you rather let this guy get close enough to attack you with a knife or other contact weapon or would you rather let your lawyer defend you to the DA or a jury?
Anyone who advances in the face of a drawn gun is either crazy (dangerous), high (dangerous), or desperate (dangerous) and just might be very dangerous.
You can put your hand on your gun an yell, "Police!! Show me your hands!!
Then you get to go to jail for impersonating a police officer. NOT a good idea... and NOT the image we want as legal CWP holders.
"Brandishing a firearm" and "Impersonating a police officer" are both illegal.You can put your hand on your gun an yell, "Police!! Show me your hands!!
Doing so (with witnesses around) could get you a fine, jail time, the loss of your CCW permit, or all three!
Not a great idea.
What???If he passes the 30' line, cover him. If he gets closer and you still can't see his hands .........
Point a loaded gun at someone in public because he refused to stop or show you his hands???
And then what happens after 30'?
Would you shoot him?
I would probably do exactly what most folks do....Here's the question:
Would you rather let this guy get close enough to attack you with a knife or other contact weapon or would you rather let your lawyer defend you to the DA or a jury?
Keep my hand on my undrawn weapon and wait and see what the guy does.
Heck, I might even draw my gun secretively with my weapon hand away from his sight and hold it down by my side.
But yes, I would wait till he got closer and see if he really was a threat or just some guy wanting to bum a cigarette.
Which is why I practice close-range shooting so much.
I sure as heck wouldn't yell "Police!! Show me your hands!!!" just because a guy was walking my way wanting to ask me a question.
inSight-NEO
New member
If firing a "snubbie," I like going out to 15 yards..tops. I could hit beyond that, but that wouldnt necessarily fit within the "practical" reasoning behind why I would use such a weapon. Of course, within 15 yards (based on various factors), I would probably opt for a shotgun..but, thats another topic entirely. Of course, I usually do not bother going beyond, say, 25 yards with any weapon I own as the majority of them are for (or could be for) HD purposes. In my case, its capability vs. practicality...with practicality winning every time.
Just because it can be done, does not necessarily mean it can be done often enough to save your life. But, each to his own....
Just because it can be done, does not necessarily mean it can be done often enough to save your life. But, each to his own....
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