"It's armored. It's heavy. It's intimidating. And it's free"

[armoredman]

Ok, so these items are NOT being given, they are being "loaned". So these items, whether it be vehicle or firearm, can be called back into federal inventory at any time - I think I remember that applying to all US service vehicles, even WWII tanks...can't remember where I read that.
That changes a few things - they aren't being given, and cannot be disposed of by the recipient, only turned in when the so-called service life is ended or when Dear Leader decides he needs them again. In this case, I wonder how interesting it would be to see a map of where these vehicles are being sent, what locations have been approved for this pre positioning of equipment? Which locations/Departments have been turned down, also a question I wonder about.

johnlmore, would you please link to that portion of the Constitution, if you don't mind, and any court decisions that may have modified it, if you know of any?

 

[shortwave]

Ok, so these items are NOT being given, they are being "loaned".

IIRC, the city of Columbus, Ohio started receiving government surplus equipment somewhere around the late 80's or early 90's and were bought for a dollar. The city owned them.

I can remember the 1st two armored vehicles Cols, received, and the tax $'s spent on them in time/parts to prep them to the 'powers-to-be' specs.

Can also remember the televised, PR 'dog-n-pony' show put on for the public by the acting Mayor at the time ( a real glory hound with a long reputation of having 'short mans' syndrome to those that knew him that arguably became one of Cols. most embarrassing mayors)another story in of itself) that gave the public the warm and fuzzy feeling inside cause now, finally, the CPD had the equipment given to them free of charge to protect the city of all evil. Pure political grandstanding.

What he failed to inform the public was at the time of his speech, there had been enough tax $'s spent in the refurbishment/modifications of these two vehicles to go out and purchase one new one. ...and one of these vehicles broke down after the speech on the way back to its parking location.

Too, the continued maintenance cost which seemed to continually pile up as they stayed in the shop for repairs/maintenance was mind boggling. But again, nobody questioned the expense of these 'top priority' ranked, super fighting machines that had to be maintained at all cost as they had to be ready in a 'nanosecond' (an often favorite term used by this mayor )....and this equipment could NOT fail cause that of course would make our illustrious mayor look bad.

I will say that the later equipment the city acquired from the military was chosen with the input of some of the maintenance personnel and the city acquired better, more feasible equipment. The result was less tax $'s being spent on them but still expensive modifications non the less.

Having worked with, and know some of CPD's swat officer's, I will say that there have been a few situations(hostage situations mostly) in which the 'shock-n-awe' factor of an ugly blacked out, armored vehicle equipped with a massive battering ram arriving on scene was enough for the bad guy to surrender. When the LE negotiator tells the bad guy that the place is surrounded and he/she needs to give up peacefully and the BG looks out and see's the vehicle, it sometimes has a psychological affect on him....but boy what a hefty price tag.

 

[johnelmore]

Lets review the options of the government:

- Scrap the vehicles coming back from deployment.

- Place the vehicles in a storage yard or with the National Guard where it will be parked in a storage yard seeing little if any use.

- Give the vehicles to the civilian authorities for their SHTF scenarios which do happen on occasion.

The third option is the best and I do not see the local police having an armored vehicle as an infringement of rights. Like many of us they have their own worst case scenarios. When there is that SHTF scenario you will be happy the police have this. They are not using these vehicles to overthrow the President or to round up random people at will.

 

[Wyoredman]

They are not using these vehicles to overthrow the President or to round up random people at will.

You are correct.

BUT, Policing seems to have become more militaristic in recent years. Some new recruits appear to be more Gung-Ho, for lack of a better description, and some of the old guard come across to me as callous and intolerant. There is most likely many, many reasons for this.

In my opinion, one of the major reasons is that as local agencies become equipped with more and more military based equipment, it has an affect on the officer. If a police person is driving a MRAP during his/her weekly training, it might create a superiority complex that is carried over to the street.

With that said, realize that I am NOT anti-police. I don't think too many of us here on TFL are. It is just that I understand the separation of local law enforcement from a National (or even State) sponsored military. It seems to me that with the National Military giving some of it's inventory to local police forces, the distinguishing characteristics of the police become blurred. And as a result of that blending of the military and the police, we are witnessing a negative affect on the local officer and the community.

Before 9/11, I don't ever remember seeing officers dressed in black fatigues, helmets and flack jackets roll up in HumVees on the streets of my town. Today, it happens at least twice a year. Why? I remember growing up that the local cops used their discretion and judgment in dealing with citizens. Now, for reasons too complicated to discuss here, discretion and judgment are removed from policing.

Seeing police act as MP's tends to lend credence to that theory.

Again, just my opinion.

 

[MTT TL]

BUT, Policing seems to have become more militaristic in recent years. Some new recruits appear to be more Gung-Ho, for lack of a better description, and some of the old guard come across to me as callous and intolerant. There is most likely many, many reasons for this.

I will see if I can find some articles from the post Vietnam era on this trend in policing.

Maybe even post War Between the States.

 

[Wyoredman]

MTT TL, You make a good point. Policing has been evolving since our nation was founded.

Yet we must still contemplate the question: How similar do we want our local police and our National Army? In many countries around the world, they are one in the same. Do we want that in the U.S.A?

 

[shortwave]

How similar do we want our local police and our National Army?

Bad as I hate to say it, there are certain areas such as Detroit, Mich. in which the gangs have all but taken over and got so far out of hand that I'm afraid we may need a police department very similar to a military army to straighten out.
And, these areas are getting worse every year.

 

[MTT TL]

How similar do we want our local police and our National Army? In many countries around the world, they are one in the same. Do we want that in the U.S.A?

You are confusing some equipment with everything else. The police have a completely different mission, mindset and tool box.

I can tell you beyond a shadow of any doubt that the military has way more of everything than the police could ever hope to muster.

I understand your issue. You look on the TV and you see guys in body armor with rifles riding around in a lightly armored wheeled vehicle. The police do it for a high profile drug bust or maybe a standoff once in a blue moon. The soldiers do it for a living every day.

One armor company with M1A1 tanks from the Army could defeat every police force on the planet equipped with armed MRAPs combined. So there really is no comparison with capability.

Appearances? I'd rather not have it too much of it (so long as it is practical) as it seems to alarm some of the citizenry excessively.

 

[shortwave]

The police do it for a high profile drug bust or maybe a standoff once in a blue moon.

And in these situations, IMO, LE should be able to use whatever means necessary to get their job done in the safest, most efficient way possible and should not hesitate to use every tactical, physical and psychological edge available to them.

 

[Wyoredman]

Actually, I don't need to "look at my TV", I , and many others in small towns all across the country, can see just what you described by looking out our front doors!

As for police having a different mission, mindset and toolbox; the lines are becomming more and more un-distinguishable!

 

[OuTcAsT]

MTT TL Wrote;

You are confusing some equipment with everything else. The police have a completely different mission, mindset and tool box.

While that may be somewhat accurate at the moment, the trend seems to be that if you begin to add military grade "tools" to the "toolbox" the mindset begins to veer toward using those "tools" more frequently. The other unintended consequence is "mission creep".

One armor company with M1A1 tanks from the Army could defeat every police force on the planet equipped with armed MRAPs combined.

Likely, you are correct however, the question is not whether the military could fare well against the local constabulary. The law enforcement guns are not usually pointed at the military.

 

[JimDandy]

Well Wyoredman, I'm not sure you're as not anti-police as you think you are given the tone of some of your other posts, presupposing malice on the part of a Chief simply because he has an MRAP, like the Anti's do with us just because we have a gun, or worse, carry it around in public.

As for your concern over National or State military, Posse Comitatus doesn't generally affect the National Guard under state control, as I understand. It also MAY not affect Nationalized National Guard. Much like War Powers, there's enough ambiguity so something can be done in an emergency. Still, the Governor is often well within his powers to use National Guard troops to enforce law. See Engbloom v Carey where the Second Circuit held National Guardsman were in fact troops, even while engaged in a police function (i.e. guarding prisons during a strike)

As we've been subject to State military troops acting in a police capacity for our entire history as a country. State Militias and Federal troops until Posse Comitatus in 1878, state militias until ~1903 ~1916 ~1933 an ~1947 when the State Militias as we knew them then morphed into the National Guard(s), and through today and tomorrow as the National Guard itself. As for me, I'd rather have police trained in civil rights law, than the National Guard trained in maneuver warfare unless we absolutely need the Guard. Bull Connors used firehoses and dogs, which was bad enough. National Guardsmen don't have dogs or firehoses, much to Kent State's peril.

 

[MTT TL]

I can see you guys are going to remain skeptical and that is fine. Skepticism is good really.

Just consider this: Police conducting military style operations are very rare. The last time the police mounted a company sized full scale attack with air and armor support was 20 years ago in Waco and that turned out to be quite the goat rope. It took weeks of planning, the cooperation of dozens of agencies and still went badly. The media fallout went on for years.

The military conducts that kind of operation on a routine basis.

 

[Wyoredman]

As for me, I'd rather have police trained in civil rights law, than the National Guard trained in maneuver warfare unless we absolutely need the Guard. Bull Connors used firehoses and dogs, which was bad enough. National Guardsmen don't have dogs or firehoses, much to Kent State's peril.

I couldn't agree with you more!

Police conducting military style operations are very rare.

And I hope it remains that way for another 200 years!

 

[MTT TL]

And I hope it remains that way for another 200 years!

On that we are fully agreed.

 

[armoredman]

They are not using these vehicles ... or to round up random people at will.

Missed the whole Boston Lockdown, didja? Google up some images of armed and armored vehicles on street corners, weapons pointed in windows AT people who are merely taking pictures, people forced from their homes to run down the street, hands in the air, for the crime of living in Boston.


After it was over, they cheered the police, even though the guy who found the bomber was an unarmed, (it IS Boston), civilian who lost his boat to police gunfire hours later.

 

[MTT TL]

Missed the whole Boston Lockdown, didja?

I missed the part where you said who the people were that were rounded up when searching for the bomber who had been in a wild running gun battle with the police resulting in multiple casualties?


Purely BTW: The internet raised thousands of dollars to buy Henneberry a new boat. He told them to donate it to the relief fund for the victims. A very generous man.

 

[Fishing_Cabin]

Perhaps instead of the worries, or what if thinking, boston, etc, let me toss out some ideas for thoughts.

1. If you object to the 1033 program, what other ideas do you have to change the program to what you feel is better? What about working with DoD to remove the Demil restrictions on certain items so they could be more readily sold for more money to the public instead of loaning them out or scrapping them?

2. Since some agencies use grants or other funding to purchase or fund equipment such as an armored vehicle, response team, or 4wd vehicles for inclement weather or rough terrain, how should that be changed if you feel it should? Should there be more oversight and public awareness of the program(s)? Perhaps a way to have a public database on various grants to see where this money is coming from and track how it is being spent in a more open manner?

3. How can we, as a group, have a more positive affect and perhaps make a difference in the future on this issue?

 

[MTT TL]

What about working with DoD to remove the Demil restrictions on certain items so they could be more readily sold for more money to the public instead of loaning them out or scrapping them?

You mean M-16's through CMP? The line of cars into Anniston would stretch from Birmingham on one side to Atlanta on the other. I am sure someone on this board would take offense.

But those are all excellent ideas.

 

[Fishing_Cabin]

actually MTT TL, just trying to put some ideas out there, and hope others may chime in. Instead of just discussing <MRAPS = bad/good> why not discuss what can logically and realistically could be done or changed? If we find something that is realistic perhaps we could work to get something changed or improved?