"It's armored. It's heavy. It's intimidating. And it's free"

[MTT TL]

POLICE chiefs controlling military equipment and using military tactics is a recipe for disaster.

True, but not for the reasons you are implying. Most police departments barely can afford enough officers to patrol the streets and chase down the criminals. Putting together a military unit for an arbitrary purpose would be beyond the reach of nearly all departments. Trying to restrict freedoms in any meaningful way would be near impossible without an overwhelming voluntary compliance.

The difference between John Q. Public and his .45 vs. Jimmy Q Police Chief and his MRAP, is that the founders tried to write the Constitution so as to insure Mr. Public the freedom from Mr. Police Chief acting as a military unit and taking his freedoms away.

Even if they could the effectiveness of acting as a military unit would be horrible. They simply don't have the resources (man power, logistics, infrastructure), training or skill set to operate as a military unit. They don't have any means to acquire these things either.

I'd much rather see these vehicles offered to rural fire and ambulance services.

The off road capability of an MRAP leaves much to be desired.

 

[Herluf]

Some small departments can fund a significant portion of their budget by getting the "free vehicle" and then selling it for good money after keeping it the required time. Most of the time the only time they move is when they are driven in the gates.

This keeps the local taxes down, makes the sheriff look good to supporters for bringing in resources and gives them a back up plan if the Boston Bomber pays a visit to their city. It is a whole MRAP full of win.

I hadn't thought of this. This sounds like a really good situation for small police departments.

I personally see little danger in police departments getting an armored truck as long as upkeep doesn't end up costing too much. Parts/wheels/etc can be quite expensive for such vehicles and that $ can often be used better elsewhere.

We live in a dangerous time where criminals have access to more and more dangerous equipment. I've got no problem with the Police/Swat getting an armored truck to roll in when going up against well armed criminals.

 

[grizz223]

grizz223, the North Hollywood shootout was aided by three civilian armored trucks that the company I worked for allowed to be used, although only one showed up on the media.

armoredman
That is what our Swat team has is an old Armored car or as you call it a cash hauler. The LAPD also had to borrow AR 15s from a local gun dealer so they could put down some suppressive fire to get their wounded officers out.The community really came together that day to help. How Ironic that if the same thing happened today there would not be any AR15s because they are banned in California.

 

[spacecoast]

I hope most see the difference between a free person owning a rifle and an appointed police chief controlling an MRAP!

Yes, absolutely. I don't think most police chiefs' Napoleon complexes need any more encouragement. Their purpose is not to fight wars.

The issue is this, when political appointees are giving military hardware that normally takes military hardware to stop it. How does someone know that when political doctrine changes, that the said political appontee wont be driving up and down the street to ensure you vote for "the correct political party come election time?"

Excellent point.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

armoredman
That is what our Swat team has is an old Armored car or as you call it a cash hauler. The LAPD also had to borrow AR 15s from a local gun dealer so they could put down some suppressive fire to get their wounded officers out.The community really came together that day to help. How Ironic that if the same thing happened today there would not be any AR15s because they are banned in California.

Those AR15s were never used in the fight. LAPD did borrow a local cash hauler to get out wounded officers. AR15s are not banned in California currently.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/615704_California_compliant.html

The issue is this, when political appointees are giving military hardware that normally takes military hardware to stop it. How does someone know that when political doctrine changes, that the said political appontee wont be driving up and down the street to ensure you vote for "the correct political party come election time?"

Excellent point.

Not an excellent point. If you are worried about the mayor enforcing political solidarity with a truck, then you call the state police, federal government, etc. If you are afraid they are in on the deal, then it really doesn't matter anyway because they will just blow you up with a bomb from a stealth bomber.

 

[Wyoredman]

Most police departments barely can afford enough officers to patrol the streets and chase down the criminals.

I find this a bit disingenuous. I hear the funding shortage cry every year from the Chief in my small town of 7000 folks. Yet he has grown his department to 24 officers! One officer for every 292 people!

Also, since my town is the county seat, that number doesn't include the Sheriff's deputies, State Troopers, FBI (we are 3miles from the reservation), Federal Marshalls, and Federal Police stationed here!

So if one Police Officer per 292 citizens isn't enough to patrol the streets, you suggest that my town deploy military equipment and tactics to make up the shortfall?

I don't agree!

 

[MTT TL]

So if one Police Officer per 292 citizens isn't enough to patrol the streets, you suggest that my town deploy military equipment and tactics to make up the shortfall?

I don't agree!

I don't agree either. That is why I did not say that.

BTW- 292 is below the average of 256 for the US as a whole. I imagine crime must be lower in your neck of the wood keeping the numbers down.

 

[Wyoredman]

I guess you didn't say that, but for some reason that's what I took from your prior post.

Internet conversations can be a bit tricky at times!

And, I am sure if you added all LEO presence in my town, the ratio would be near 1 per < 200 citizens. Given the fact that the FED has BLM, USFS, FBI, ATF, Reservation and Marshall Service officers located here along with the County Sheriff and his deputies and the State Troopers and the State Game Wardens!

 

[MTT TL]

I am sure if you added all LEO presence in my town, the ratio would be near 1 per < 200 citizens. Given the fact that the FED has BLM, USFS, FBI, ATF, Reservation and Marshall Service officers located here along with the County Sheriff and his deputies and the State Troopers and the State Game Wardens!

Possibly, but I was using patrol officer numbers. Also are the Fed and state agencies there for "your town" or do they serve a regional area and are HQ'd in your town because that is where all the people and resources are?

 

[armoredman]

Those AR15s were never used in the fight. LAPD did borrow a local cash hauler to get out wounded officers. AR15s are not banned in California currently.

There are California compliant AR-15s in California with ridiculous accessories like The Hammerhead grip stock to get around the insane laws in that goofy state.
We passed out Mini-14s to road blocks that day from our stock, as LAPD had no rifles. They weren't used, fortunately. BTW, LAPD didn't borrow the rig - we loaned it after moving all the currency up front - it was doing a stop nearby and just happened to be in the area when a cop hammered on the door asking if it was really bullet proof. The driver of the truck was an AT employee, not a SWAT officer. After that we started carrying forms for cops to sign if they needed a bullet blocker, stating they took legal responsibility for the liability inside the vehicle.
Back to the MRAP - if the off road capability sucks, then the only place we should be using them is maybe donating them to our allies in hot spots, like Israel. Hummers would work better for those rural area ambulances.
Question - a lot of people have stated the departments should accept them and then sell them - who are they selling them to?

 

[MTT TL]

Question - a lot of people have stated the departments should accept them and then sell them - who are they selling them to?

Depends upon the machinery and department. If it is a bulldozer it could go to a construction crew. A CUCV/ HWMVV might go to a private collector, NGO or a museum possibly even a a foreign nation if they want to pay shipping and fill out all the paperwork. There a lot of auction places out there:

http://www.municibid.com/detail.asp?id=17329

 

[Al Norris]

BTW- 292 is below the average of 256 for the US as a whole. I imagine crime must be lower in your neck of the wood keeping the numbers down.

Oh come on! That average is skewed by including the big cities and you know it. Over here in Rupert, ID, we have 12 Officers for a town of 6000. And yes, our crime rate is way below the national average. But this is a rural farm town, so it is expected to be lower.

The fact that Wyoredman's town is only a 1000 more in population but has double the police says something. And that something is not good.

 

[Wyoredman]

http://trib.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/armored-vehicle-joins-three-wyoming-counties-arsenal/article_4f83610b-8300-506a-91e4-3fef496504f9.html

Well, the three counties to the north of the county I live have received one of the MRAPS!

When asked by the reporter, one of the Sheriffs replied:

"We have to have it to nab the bad guys," Rakness said. "It's our hope we never have to use it. But it's free and we believe the taxpayers are getting some money back they invested in equipment."

A bit further along in the story another Sheriff opines:

"But if it saves one life, it's worth all the money we spend on it,"

Then,

"We have to have the means to win in any situation."

I, personally, support our local law enforcement and Sheriffs Departments, but can't get past the idea of them obtaining and using these military vehicles! This is WYOMING for gods sake! Why do they keep aquireing armored vehicles?

 

[csmsss]

"But if it saves one life, it's worth all the money we spend on it,"

More mischief and outright evil has been rationalized under this particular rubric than just about anything I can think of. Essentially, nothing is out of bounds if it can be argued that just a single life might be saved.

 

[johnelmore]

I am actually in support of the police obtaining such vehicles. The local police department is poorly equipped and poorly trained when compared to the National Guard or the Army.

Lets say there was an organized force of multiple attackers with rifles instead of the lone wolves we have seen in the media. Lets say there is a disaster. It seems like there are disasters every year. You would want the local police force having one of these things. It takes time to organize the National Guard and maybe this type of vehicle would be helpful in the meantime.

I know some of you love the SHTF threads...the type that are not allowed here. You love to prepare for emergencies when all hell breaks loose. Whats wrong with the local police preparing for when the SHTF. Some of you post about it on other websites. Whats wrong with the police preparing too? The local police are the first line of defense in a community and they are the ones who should be preparing for any scenario.

 

[MTT TL]

Oh come on! That average is skewed by including the big cities and you know it.

Maybe, maybe not. A lot of departments patrol outside of their town limits to a degree when allowed by law. Our local city department picks up a 30% increase in population for the three mile limit it patrols outside of. I can't speak to his situation.

"We have to have the means to win in any situation."

I wonder if he really believes that? Because it is not true.

 

[spacecoast]

Whats wrong with the local police preparing for when the SHTF.

You're assuming that we are all on the same side. Didn't Katrina demonstrate (to a degree at least) that that may not be the case?

 

[Fishing_Cabin]

Question - a lot of people have stated the departments should accept them and then sell them - who are they selling them to?

It would depend on the conditions placed on the item when it was initially disposed of or loaned by the military or feds. I don't know of any recent vehicles that have been available which can be resold, since most are on loan. The HMMWV and M35 type vehicles in my area obtained through this program have to inventoried yearly, and then turned back in (running, total loss, doesn't matter) when they are finished with the vehicle, same with the firearms. Will be up to the contract between each receiving agency and the source agency/department supplying the item which will spell out how it must be returned, scrapped, or sold.

ETA: In case anyone is curious...

All controlled (DEMIL) tactical vehicles received through the 1033 program will no longer issued an SF 97. We are not allowed to pass title of controlled property to the Law Enforcement Agency. If you receive a controlled tactical vehicle, such as a HMMWV, that you need to get registered, submit the following worksheet along with the required photo's to the Tactical Vehicle Lead. Your agency will be issued a DLA Form 1928 "Certificate To Register Tactical Vehicle"

https://www.dispositionservices.dla.mil/rtd03/leso/vehicles.shtml

Items that need turning in to a DLA Disposition Services Site (usually DEMIL items) must be coordinated with LESO Headquarters as they occur so that LESO can generate turn-in documentation. The State Coordinator must complete the above request for turn-in template and provide to LESO Headquarters. LESO uses the information to create a turn-in document. The turn-in document is signed by the LESO representative and is faxed/scanned to the State Coordinator's office (DD Form 1348-1A) The turn-in document must accompany the property being turned in to the DLA Disposition Services Site.

Demil Items:

Demilitarization is the act of destroying the offensive or defensive advantages inherent in certain types of military equipment. Manual 4160.21-M-1, entitled “DoD Demilitarization Manual” governs all property that requires demilitarization.

source: https://www.dispositionservices.dla.mil/rtd03/leso/turnin.shtml

As far as firearms...

LESO reminds LEAs that weapons obtained through the 1033 program are on loan from the DOD and remain the property of the DOD. Trading, bartering or selling of the weapons is strictly prohibited by the Memorandums of Agreement signed between your state and LESO and your state and the U.S. Army Tank-Automotive and Armaments Command (TACOM). Any incidents of trading, bartering, selling, damage to, or theft of 1033 Program weapons will be forwarded to the DLA Accountability office who has special investigators, empowered with arrest and apprehension authority, for further investigation.

source: https://www.dispositionservices.dla.mil/rtd03/leso/weapons.shtml

 

[MTT TL]

You're assuming that we are all on the same side. Didn't Katrina demonstrate (to a degree at least) that that may not be the case?

If the NOLAPD had MRAPs they all would have been underwater anyway.

 

[johnelmore]

If a part of the country is in a state of disorder the government has the right to declare martial law. The state of Hawaii was under martial law for most of World War II only ending when the court declared it had ended.

This part of the Constitution is little known and least enjoyed...