It happened again

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Dennis:
That was a rhetorical question. My point was, it would have been useless trying to apprehend the perpetrator and hold him for the police, as you would have had no right to fire the weapon if he resisted.
As you stated, he could have walked off with George's wallet, and he wouldn't have been able to legally stop him with deadly force. One could, however, manufacture a situation after-the-fact, so criminals beware.
 
George,

Plano, TEXAS! All riiight! NOW I understand a LOT more about
Kodi.. er, our TFL RangeMaster!

BTW, I did not realize you were being specific when you used the term
“Tongan”. I thought you simply meant “big! broad! large! threatening!”,
etc. :)

Sambonator,
I figured it was a rhetorical question but I didn’t know how the casual
lurker might take it. Just wanted to formalize what I truly figured you
meant.

As far as manufacturing a situation after-the-fact, I don’t recommend it.
Investigators these days will getcha every time. Better to be trained in
the law and play scenarios in your mind so, like George, you react properly
(legally, safely, and effectively) should the need arise. (And yes, I figure
that’s what you meant too!) :D :D
 
I think George did the right thing in not calling the cops. Why call the cops? No crime had been committed - a crime had been averted. Cops don't appreciated getting called and having to fill out paperwork for UNPROSECUTEABLE offenses.
Or, worst case scenario - since there is a GUN INVOLVED, the law requires that EVERBODY gets arrested, George has to defend himself before a grand jury hearing to see if he was justified in threatening the Tongan with a deadly weapon. As the Tongan didn't actually steal anything, he is released, goes to the hospital for his head injury - where a lawyer gives him his card - and he sues George for bodily injury. George loses his CCW because he has a gun violation (remember, it's for concealed carry - and George pulled it out so it was unconcealed) AND has to pay the Tongan for medical bills AND pain & suffering.
Unfortunately, this is not far fetched - I have read numerous stories of exactly this happening.
The point? George is a MAN who can take care of his business - he doesn't NEED the state to help him. AMERICAN FREEDOM!
 
Alex,

I agree George can take care of business and nobody can call me delinquent in advocating American freedom.

I would note, however, that (at least in Texas law) several crimes may have been committed.

- Texas Penal Code paragraph 22.01 defines assault (in part) as a person who "...intentionally or knowingly causes physical contact with another when the person knows or should reasonably believe that the other will regard the contact as offensive or provocative." It is a Class C misdemeanor unless other factors upgrade the offense.

- PC 31.03 defines theft (in part) as appropriation of property without the owner's effective consent and:

- PC 29.01 defines robbery (in part) as, in the course of committing theft ... the person intentionally or knowingly threatens or places another in fear of imminent bodily injury or death. This is a second degree felony.
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George's actions would seem to be in total compliance with Texas law!
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In NO way do I denigrate George's actions! In fact, I sincerely wish he could accompany me on some of my business calls!!! However, not all of us can match the vigorous actions of our George! Some of us must rely upon folks such as John Browning, etc. ;)

In Texas, at least in my county, I would not hesitate to report such an incident to the Sheriff's Department. If Mr. Tonga had left the scene S.O. would want descriptions of the perp, accomplices, vehicles, etc. and it would be Mr. Tonga who spent time in our local "Hilton" - NOT the victim of assault, theft, and robbery.

It is not so much the NEED that would motivate me to call law enforcement. If Mr. Tonga left the scene I no longer would feel threatened. However, I would like to see the sucker in jail! Therefore, in MY county, I would WANT to call law enforcement.

If I were "abroad", say in San Antonio, I might be more circumspect in a request for assistance. However, remember the potential for a bystander to call police if they saw the victim "brandish a firearm" - also a criminal offense in many circumstances.

Me? I feel pretty safe in my home county! God bless Texas, Comal County, and Sheriff Bob Holder!

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited October 27, 1999).]
 
George, Dennis and all.
Really a great discussion. I previously said that George should have called the police to report the crime, and I still say that he should have.
As far as not involving the police since "no crime occurred", as Dennis points out, several crimes were likely committed. The fact that the felony crime of robbery of a person (Oklahoma law), or Robbery 1 (Texas law) was not completed successfully does not obviate the fact that a attempted felony occurred. In both Oklahoma and Texas that is very(!) likely to get someone put in prison.
Lastly, in both Oklahoma and Texas, the failure of a person to report a felony is, itself, a crime. Therefore, if George decided not to call the police - technically he committed a crime.
For these reasons, and the ones I listed earlier, George should have called the police and sought to file charges against the badguy. Remember a great quote "When good men stay silent, only then can evil triumph".
 
First, let me put on the usual public gesture of disdain since the situation should have been handled better and you (George) knew that, and so that others would not follow in your footsteps and possibly hurt themselves.

BAD GEORGE! SHAME ON YOU FOR GOING A LITTLE TOO GUNG-HO! WHAT KIND OF EXAMPLE ARE YOU SETTING? BAD BAD BAD!

Ok, now just between you and me? When you kicked that guy in the nuts, you kicked it for all of us. I'm cheering for you and am right behind you on that one. Hell, if you want, we'll hook up, find out where he lives, and kick him some more just to make sure he'll never "borrow" anything from anyone else again. Hehe.

Seriously though, any fight you can walk away in one piece from is good enough in my book. And since you knew better, I hope that things will be different if this ever happened again. But I'm sure it won't right? :)

On another note, this event illustrates yet another reason why we don't always hear about the good guys triumphing over the bad guys. Because the situation was resolved and it was too much hassle to report it. So, we don't hear about it.

[This message has been edited by SB (edited October 27, 1999).]
 
Dennis:
Okay, I re-read my post and I was a bit strident and sounded slightly paranoid about Big Brother - but I recently got my CHL here in Dallas, Texas, and we were told horror stories about people who had shot attackers, and who were eventually cleared of all charges :) - after two years and $200,000 in legal fees :(. And who still faced civil suits and further legal bills :( :(. In fact, a recent firearms magazine had an article to this effect by the sheriff of Rockwall County, Texas (not sure of the title or month - had the Savage Scout on the cover).
I also agree that, all other things being equal, it is probably better to report the assault. Unfortunately all to often, in my experience, one can NO LONGER trust the good judgement of public service employees - I say this after 19 years of public service - and, given the proliferation of ridiculous lawsuits (such as cities suing gun manufacturers for gun violence:{ - how about car manufacturers for accidents and pollution?)one must protect oneself from THIS threat as well.
It sounds like you have a good situation where you are :) - but I don't know if I would trust the Dallas police - and I KNOW I wouldn't trust some of the suburban police forces. I recall a run-in with the Grand Prarie police when a drunk hit me:{. I was driving back from South Texas where I had been training a combined Border Patrol/USMC Recon unit on recon techniques for drug interdiction (this was 1989) - and I had NEVER been treated that way by LEOs before. I have since. And, since then, I have worked with a lot of LEOs on the Federal level - and they aren't the same as they used to be. I know and have known lots of good ones - but more and more, they are recruiting bureacrats, NOT crimefighters. :(

IMHO. :)

Alex


[This message has been edited by Alex (edited October 27, 1999).]
 
Deputy KC:
"When good men stay silent, only then can evil triumph".
Don't accuse George of being silent. By delivering a kick in the balls, a punch in the chest, and a gun in the face, the good guy presented a very loud-and-clear message.
 
What purpose does reporting an already resolved felony serve?

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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
 
I think George did the right thing in not calling the cops. Alex was right on. I think calling the cops is just asking for problems.

I agree that George maybe should have expanded the tongan's cultural awareness with a solid kick to the head when he was down.
 
JohnAz2:

To answer your question, it could possibly have done good if George were (probably foolishly) willing to prolong contact with the robber, so as to I.D. or arrest him. To be sure, this guy was going to plead down to theft from the person of another (State jail felony, TX) or even theft (Class A-C misdemeanor, depending on worth of wallet's contents) rather than take the fall for a 2nd degree felony robbery, but it puts it on his record, violates his probation or parole, if any, and helps set the guy up for the big fall.

If the guy just picked himself up off the ground and ran away, it doesn't do much good, as there's no way to get handle on him without being very, VERY lucky.

George disengaged as soon as he had his property back. Didn't play cop. This reduces the opportunity of jailing the man should he report later. But, from what George has said, he's already risked not returning to his family because he played the role of Good Citizen, following up on these things. Good husbands and daddies, no matter what their choice of carreer, say to themselves as they leave the house, "Regardless of what occurs today, I'm coming Home."

Now if we all met such encounters this way... the government officials would take credit for the "reduction in crime." ;)

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Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap?

Matt
 
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