It happened again
- Thread starter George Hill
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Mike in VA
New member
Congratulations George, glad everything worked out OK. I can't second guess anything with a happy ending. I sort of feel that calling the cops on this guy might be a public service, OTOH, it could also be a complete waste of time and furnish the dweeb with the info he needs to get even. In general, I believe in staying off the radar (all radar). I would have also made wure he understood that I ever saw him again I would assume his intentions are not honorable and would react accordingly with a MUCH bigger gun. Take care of yo'sef, ursa grande. M2
Rich:
Depends on the perception of what Condition Yellow entails. He may not have been processing & evaluating all around him, but when he felt the tug in his pocket, he wasn't paralyzed to find a goblin at work on his wallet, and behaved appropriately at each point (rather than going "duh...huh?").
George:
"What if" time: what if the CCW permit had not been found? What if he had just pulled the cash, tossed the wallet in your face & left?
Innocent question: what prompted you to respond to the "got a gun?" question that way, as opposed to some verbal answer ("yes", <grin>, <stare>, "you don't know", etc.)?
Tex:
George is NOT responsible for what the goblin chooses to do to someone else later, legally or morally. The _goblin_ is responsible for that. DO NOT lay that guilt trip on anyone! Rifling a wallet or "he might do X someday" is not grounds for summary execution. And if George had offed the perp, George would be sitting in a jail cell now, wishing he had handed over the wallet with a smile.
Others:
In what similar situations is it appropriate to make such a "pre-emptive strike"?
[This message has been edited by ctdonath (edited October 26, 1999).]
Depends on the perception of what Condition Yellow entails. He may not have been processing & evaluating all around him, but when he felt the tug in his pocket, he wasn't paralyzed to find a goblin at work on his wallet, and behaved appropriately at each point (rather than going "duh...huh?").
George:
"What if" time: what if the CCW permit had not been found? What if he had just pulled the cash, tossed the wallet in your face & left?
Innocent question: what prompted you to respond to the "got a gun?" question that way, as opposed to some verbal answer ("yes", <grin>, <stare>, "you don't know", etc.)?
Tex:
George is NOT responsible for what the goblin chooses to do to someone else later, legally or morally. The _goblin_ is responsible for that. DO NOT lay that guilt trip on anyone! Rifling a wallet or "he might do X someday" is not grounds for summary execution. And if George had offed the perp, George would be sitting in a jail cell now, wishing he had handed over the wallet with a smile.
Others:
In what similar situations is it appropriate to make such a "pre-emptive strike"?
[This message has been edited by ctdonath (edited October 26, 1999).]
George,
Well done, sir!
1) You survived.
2) You dominated.
3) You kept your possessions.
4) You introduced Mr. Tonga to the perils of a life of crime.
By the way, Mr. Tonga, do you now understand the "interest rate" on involuntary loans?
Tonga (in high pitched squeeky voice): "Yes, sir."
All's well that ends well, I suppose.
Well done, sir!
1) You survived.
2) You dominated.
3) You kept your possessions.
4) You introduced Mr. Tonga to the perils of a life of crime.
By the way, Mr. Tonga, do you now understand the "interest rate" on involuntary loans?
Tonga (in high pitched squeeky voice): "Yes, sir."
All's well that ends well, I suppose.
Good going George. I'm glad to see everything turned out ok. Although I can understand your concern about not wanting to spend the morning with the police, I think you should have. Then you would be one of the few documented gun owners who prevented a crime. I wish I could have seen his face when he saw the CCW permit 
Longhair
I also agree with you. I think kicking his skull in would have been a good "don't F--k with me again" kind gesture.
Longhair
I also agree with you. I think kicking his skull in would have been a good "don't F--k with me again" kind gesture.
TheBluesMan
Moderator Emeritus
George,
IMHO you did great! Plus you earn valuable points for using exactly the amount of force necessary, no more, no less. I can only hope to respond as gracefully as you did if I were in a similar situation. Oh, wait, I can't! There's no concealed carry in Ohio. I sometimes feel like I'm wearing one of those fake HCI buttons "I have no gun, so please don't hurt me."
ctdonath, Thanks for the mild flame of tex, I wouldn't have been as diplomatic. News Flash Just because someone takes your wallet doesn't mean that you can KILL them!!!
Duh?
------------------
RKBA!
"A right is not what someone gives you; it's what no one can take from you." - Ramsey Clark
"Rights are liable to be perverted to wrongs when we are incapable of rightly exercising them." - Sarah Josepha Hale
IMHO you did great! Plus you earn valuable points for using exactly the amount of force necessary, no more, no less. I can only hope to respond as gracefully as you did if I were in a similar situation. Oh, wait, I can't! There's no concealed carry in Ohio. I sometimes feel like I'm wearing one of those fake HCI buttons "I have no gun, so please don't hurt me."
ctdonath, Thanks for the mild flame of tex, I wouldn't have been as diplomatic. News Flash Just because someone takes your wallet doesn't mean that you can KILL them!!!
Duh?
------------------
RKBA!
"A right is not what someone gives you; it's what no one can take from you." - Ramsey Clark
"Rights are liable to be perverted to wrongs when we are incapable of rightly exercising them." - Sarah Josepha Hale
Ahh street justice! The best kind of justice for that dirtbag.
I disagree about calling the police. You may have been arrested for pulling your piece on him, it is your word against his. The police
would have cuffed both of you and you would have to spend a lot of time and money for lawyers before it would have been straightened out. You may have ended up with a record or possibly lost your carry permit, and your ability to purchase firearms in the future.
Unless the creep has a photographic memory he won't remember your address, if he does, well ...too bad for him.
This is an excellent example of the proper use of a firearm, to deter or stop crime.
Geoff Ross
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Damn!...I need more practice!
Pi$$ off the left, register to vote.
[This message has been edited by K80Geoff (edited October 26, 1999).]
I disagree about calling the police. You may have been arrested for pulling your piece on him, it is your word against his. The police
would have cuffed both of you and you would have to spend a lot of time and money for lawyers before it would have been straightened out. You may have ended up with a record or possibly lost your carry permit, and your ability to purchase firearms in the future.
Unless the creep has a photographic memory he won't remember your address, if he does, well ...too bad for him.
This is an excellent example of the proper use of a firearm, to deter or stop crime.
Geoff Ross
------------------
Damn!...I need more practice!
Pi$$ off the left, register to vote.
[This message has been edited by K80Geoff (edited October 26, 1999).]
Now y'all hold on just a minute here!
Before y'all condemn Tex, my fellow Texan, make sure y'all remember we live in the Republic of Texas - not the Peoples' Republic of New York or some such thing.
While I might agree that shooting an unarmed assailant is unwise (for many reasons), the Great State of Texas DOES permit the use of force and even deadly force to protect property under certain conditions.
Also, if Mr. Tonga was big, fearsome, and represented in the mind of Mr. Hill, a fearful threat to life or serious bodily injury, then (if all this had happened in Texas), there might be a good defense of shooting the scum-sucking pig... er, that is, I mean, Mr. Tonga.
Bear in mind Mr. Tonga already had assaulted Mr. Hill by touching his body and forcefully taking Mr. Hill's wallet. This is a provocation up with which we should not put!
Now, y'all remember I ain't no lawyer - so be sure to git ya a legal eagle (or is that "beagle", I never CAN remember) if y'all want legal advice to rely upon.
Shore is a shame y'all can't live free....
Hey, Tex, want another Shiner Bock while I'm up anyways?
-------
BTW, I still believe George acted admirably - much better than I have the physical ability or training to match. A little "wresting match" (we call it a "bug tussle") could permanently cripple me. Therefore, I fear I might have shot Tonga under similar circumstances because I don't have the ability to protect myself with lesser force.
Oh, BTW, the THREAT of deadly force is not considered the USE of deadly force here in Texas. Therefore Mr. Hill might have advised Mr. Tonga, "Stand fast, thou scum, lest I use the significant power of powder and ball to rearrange, damage or even destroy vital and important portions of your personal anatomy!"
Now, by God, THAT would have told him!
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited October 26, 1999).]
Before y'all condemn Tex, my fellow Texan, make sure y'all remember we live in the Republic of Texas - not the Peoples' Republic of New York or some such thing.
While I might agree that shooting an unarmed assailant is unwise (for many reasons), the Great State of Texas DOES permit the use of force and even deadly force to protect property under certain conditions.
Also, if Mr. Tonga was big, fearsome, and represented in the mind of Mr. Hill, a fearful threat to life or serious bodily injury, then (if all this had happened in Texas), there might be a good defense of shooting the scum-sucking pig... er, that is, I mean, Mr. Tonga.
Bear in mind Mr. Tonga already had assaulted Mr. Hill by touching his body and forcefully taking Mr. Hill's wallet. This is a provocation up with which we should not put!
Now, y'all remember I ain't no lawyer - so be sure to git ya a legal eagle (or is that "beagle", I never CAN remember) if y'all want legal advice to rely upon.
Shore is a shame y'all can't live free....
Hey, Tex, want another Shiner Bock while I'm up anyways?
-------
BTW, I still believe George acted admirably - much better than I have the physical ability or training to match. A little "wresting match" (we call it a "bug tussle") could permanently cripple me. Therefore, I fear I might have shot Tonga under similar circumstances because I don't have the ability to protect myself with lesser force.
Oh, BTW, the THREAT of deadly force is not considered the USE of deadly force here in Texas. Therefore Mr. Hill might have advised Mr. Tonga, "Stand fast, thou scum, lest I use the significant power of powder and ball to rearrange, damage or even destroy vital and important portions of your personal anatomy!"
Now, by God, THAT would have told him!
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited October 26, 1999).]
Sambonator
New member
Would it have been OK to shoot the perpetrator, if you had decided to hold him for the police, and he was uncooperative? (e.g. what if he said he isn't going to stick around, and attempts to flee... or if he decided not to hand over the wallet and runs. Shoot him in the back? How many say yes?)
Gwinnydapooh
Retired Screen Name
No flame here! I'd have called the cops, Kodiak didn't want to, works for me. This sounded like you did a great job to me, man.
The Goblin learned a valuable lesson and you did much better than I could've in the same situation!
(Not that I'll be in the same situation--I'll be trying to do the same thing with a knife, since I live in IL where carrying a gun makes you EVIL.)
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Don
"Its not criminals that go into schools and shoot children"
--Ann Pearston, British Gun Control apologist and moron
The Goblin learned a valuable lesson and you did much better than I could've in the same situation!
(Not that I'll be in the same situation--I'll be trying to do the same thing with a knife, since I live in IL where carrying a gun makes you EVIL.)
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Don
"Its not criminals that go into schools and shoot children"
--Ann Pearston, British Gun Control apologist and moron
George--
Let me thank you for making my day. I personally know how it can be a bit difficult to bring these personal experiences up, even when you arise the victor. But your sharing with us helps teach us the value of remaining vigilant against the world and, when presented with an adversary, "responding violently and with great alacrity," as an old western lawman once said.
People, this guy's pickpocketting was not yet a killing offense, and recall that there is absolutely no law that requires Mr. Hill to report this act to "the authorities." The guy would've gotten off on probation, George's time would've been wasted, and the only lesson this guy learned was the one George taught him about .5 seconds after the guy looked up from George's wallet and saw stars. Punishment works when it is immediate, certain, and significantly severe. The most important of the three is certainty, the least is severity (interestingly enough.). Sad but true, putting Tongo in the system effectively puts George "in the system."
When a man can defend himself properly, it's his perogative as to whether or not to involve others.
BTW, I have ALWAYS had trouble making myself go "buns up" in those public Wash n' Vac places, and haven't really come up with a particularly good alternative, save bringing a friend or spouse to get the other side (this is faster so that you can do it in one cycle, and they've got your back.), or to simply use the home canister vac with long cord. You can't easily keep a wall to your back, because you have to park far enough away to let the doors swing open. I guess the only way to do it alone is to do the prairie dog look every 2 seconds, which we all agree is a serious pain in the ass. But, one supposes, better than admitting that our condition yellow was diluted...
Good job, sir.
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Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap?
Matt
[This message has been edited by Long Path (edited October 26, 1999).]
Let me thank you for making my day. I personally know how it can be a bit difficult to bring these personal experiences up, even when you arise the victor. But your sharing with us helps teach us the value of remaining vigilant against the world and, when presented with an adversary, "responding violently and with great alacrity," as an old western lawman once said.
People, this guy's pickpocketting was not yet a killing offense, and recall that there is absolutely no law that requires Mr. Hill to report this act to "the authorities." The guy would've gotten off on probation, George's time would've been wasted, and the only lesson this guy learned was the one George taught him about .5 seconds after the guy looked up from George's wallet and saw stars. Punishment works when it is immediate, certain, and significantly severe. The most important of the three is certainty, the least is severity (interestingly enough.). Sad but true, putting Tongo in the system effectively puts George "in the system."
When a man can defend himself properly, it's his perogative as to whether or not to involve others.
BTW, I have ALWAYS had trouble making myself go "buns up" in those public Wash n' Vac places, and haven't really come up with a particularly good alternative, save bringing a friend or spouse to get the other side (this is faster so that you can do it in one cycle, and they've got your back.), or to simply use the home canister vac with long cord. You can't easily keep a wall to your back, because you have to park far enough away to let the doors swing open. I guess the only way to do it alone is to do the prairie dog look every 2 seconds, which we all agree is a serious pain in the ass. But, one supposes, better than admitting that our condition yellow was diluted...
Good job, sir.
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Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap?
Matt
[This message has been edited by Long Path (edited October 26, 1999).]
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
Wow - I am away for a few hours... lots of response to this.
Looking back on the other options - and going over the what if's... That could take forever. You just have to go with your instincts. Your first impulse is often the right one. Act on it with haste.
I missed the Discovery Channel special... Had I seen it - Yeah - I would have done things differently. Perhaps shared with him more of my Tony Lamas... "This is how I say Howdy! Please note the delicate stichwork, and the small nails in the heel... This is part of my Culture." (I grew up in Plano, Texas)
As for the other times I have used force in a personal protection situation - thats a thread for another day. Or actually, perhaps I will post them on my web page and do something useful with it.
Thanks guys for the show of support.
Rich - a D is still a passing grade - My situational awarness was indeed a "F"
Martial Arts - I am no expert. I have taken classes in several forms - mostly for fun:
Judo, Aikido, Jujutsu, and Shotokan. I also learned for working purposses US ARMY hand to hand, Koga, and PPCT (Pressure Point Control Tactics).
And I watched ROAD HOUSE 37 times...
One last thing. The PPK - its a .380 loaded with Magsafe AGENT rounds I got at a gunshow a few months ago. As good as those loads are... its still a little .380 and at the time I was really wishing I had my HK in case this guy wanted to get frisky.
I am looking at other compact pistol options right now. And that will be the subject of another thread once a selection is made. Maybe something like a compact 10MM...
Dennis - My friend, you are a poet!
"Stand fast, thou scum, lest I use the significant power of powder and ball to rearrange, damage or even destroy vital and important portions of your personal anatomy!"
I will certainly have to remember that for use next time should the need arise!
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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
[This message has been edited by George Hill (edited October 27, 1999).]
Looking back on the other options - and going over the what if's... That could take forever. You just have to go with your instincts. Your first impulse is often the right one. Act on it with haste.
I missed the Discovery Channel special... Had I seen it - Yeah - I would have done things differently. Perhaps shared with him more of my Tony Lamas... "This is how I say Howdy! Please note the delicate stichwork, and the small nails in the heel... This is part of my Culture." (I grew up in Plano, Texas)
As for the other times I have used force in a personal protection situation - thats a thread for another day. Or actually, perhaps I will post them on my web page and do something useful with it.
Thanks guys for the show of support.
Rich - a D is still a passing grade - My situational awarness was indeed a "F"
Martial Arts - I am no expert. I have taken classes in several forms - mostly for fun:
Judo, Aikido, Jujutsu, and Shotokan. I also learned for working purposses US ARMY hand to hand, Koga, and PPCT (Pressure Point Control Tactics).
And I watched ROAD HOUSE 37 times...
One last thing. The PPK - its a .380 loaded with Magsafe AGENT rounds I got at a gunshow a few months ago. As good as those loads are... its still a little .380 and at the time I was really wishing I had my HK in case this guy wanted to get frisky.
I am looking at other compact pistol options right now. And that will be the subject of another thread once a selection is made. Maybe something like a compact 10MM...
Dennis - My friend, you are a poet!
"Stand fast, thou scum, lest I use the significant power of powder and ball to rearrange, damage or even destroy vital and important portions of your personal anatomy!"
I will certainly have to remember that for use next time should the need arise!
------------------
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
[This message has been edited by George Hill (edited October 27, 1999).]
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
Okay - I want to add something: This in response to a couple emails I just had.
Tongans - are very large humans... Very strong. They can be quite disconcerting. I bare no ill against them as a people. They have very close cousins on the isles of Samoa. Samoans are also huge people. Powerful people. In Utah there are a lot of gang activities with Samoans and Tongans.
This had nothing to do wiht a gang as far as I can tell. I have good relations with people from both nations...
There was a small riot in St George, Ut 6 or 7 years ago where we where. I went out (I had VERY GOOD reasons for this) and started disarming the people in the middle of this riot - Black on Pacific Islander... it was very ugly. In the middle of this after I had removed from the fray several items such as bats and table legs (with a bolts sticking out - not kidding here), I noticed several guys near my apartment. I ran over and was greated with a most welcome sight.
Some one had kicked in my door and my family (wife and first born son) was in there while I was out side. The fellows who saw this happen removed the subject who kicked in the door... removed him over a 7 foot cinder block wall - and then guarded the door way. 5 Samoans and 1 Tongan can make a barricade similar to the way Bison circle there young... You aint getting in there. They protected my family. I could NEVER repay such a debt. Or maybe they did because I had done the same moments prior... I dont know.
It was an ugly night - but some strong ties where made there that night.
The actions of one foolish man have nothing to do with the rest of men. And my actions in response had nothing to do with anything other than his against me.
To suggest otherwise is to put it mildly, untrue. I would have done the same exact thing regardless of race creed color size or tax bracket.
Honor before Everything.
------------------
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
[This message has been edited by George Hill (edited October 27, 1999).]
Tongans - are very large humans... Very strong. They can be quite disconcerting. I bare no ill against them as a people. They have very close cousins on the isles of Samoa. Samoans are also huge people. Powerful people. In Utah there are a lot of gang activities with Samoans and Tongans.
This had nothing to do wiht a gang as far as I can tell. I have good relations with people from both nations...
There was a small riot in St George, Ut 6 or 7 years ago where we where. I went out (I had VERY GOOD reasons for this) and started disarming the people in the middle of this riot - Black on Pacific Islander... it was very ugly. In the middle of this after I had removed from the fray several items such as bats and table legs (with a bolts sticking out - not kidding here), I noticed several guys near my apartment. I ran over and was greated with a most welcome sight.
Some one had kicked in my door and my family (wife and first born son) was in there while I was out side. The fellows who saw this happen removed the subject who kicked in the door... removed him over a 7 foot cinder block wall - and then guarded the door way. 5 Samoans and 1 Tongan can make a barricade similar to the way Bison circle there young... You aint getting in there. They protected my family. I could NEVER repay such a debt. Or maybe they did because I had done the same moments prior... I dont know.
It was an ugly night - but some strong ties where made there that night.
The actions of one foolish man have nothing to do with the rest of men. And my actions in response had nothing to do with anything other than his against me.
To suggest otherwise is to put it mildly, untrue. I would have done the same exact thing regardless of race creed color size or tax bracket.
Honor before Everything.
------------------
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
[This message has been edited by George Hill (edited October 27, 1999).]
Danger Dave
New member
Now that's a neighborhood watch in action!
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