Issn Ryu Karate

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threegun, my point is not to learn in order to start fights or engage in "mutual combat." You keep arguing against that, but I'm not arguing for it, so it's kind of a straw man argument.

What I'm saying is that there may be times when weapons are not justifiable, but some lesser level of force is necessary.

What I'm also saying is that one should be prepared to encounter situations where one has been surprised, ambushed, or possibly accosted while in point-blank conditions (example: getting grabbed by some guy in a crowded venue - by the time you know there's a problem, you are already being assaulted).

Note: I've had this happen, once, when a guy mistook me for somebody else and took a swing at me. I had absolutely no reason to think he would do that; luckily, I had trained the reflexes necessary to slip the punch and take him off balance by his throat. At which point, the guy said something on the lines of - oh, sorry, thought you were that guy...

I just let him go, and continued on to my car. (This was in a parking lot.) I did keep him in my peripheral view, but he seemed very happy to open the distance between us.

It's always better to have options.
 
I would caution against getting too confident of your abilities.
I recall my son, who studied the martial arts from the time he was 10 or so for 30 years. Once when in college he said he was in a hangout and as he walked in there was a guy that might have weighed 140 lb that told him as he passed, "You might have muscles, but I have a black belt in karate, and I could take you."

My son, who weighed 220 and could kick the chandelier in our den, just walked on past and told the bouncer to keep that guy away from him. that kid had a bad case of overconfidence.

i used to think that a karate punch would put anyone down, until I saw UFC. Obviously it does not.

So martial arts can make a difference, especially in surprise, but don't get the idea that a black belt makes you invincible, especially against a knife, gun or club wielded by a large and powerful guy.

Personally I prefer OC spray, but realize there might not be time to deploy it.
Fortunately I have never had a fight since high school. It helps to stay from bad or risky areas.

Jerry
 
JerryM, the odds of one getting attacked in a manner that justifies using non-deadly force are higher than the odds of one getting attacked in a manner that justifies using deadly force.

Yet many on this forum think they should carry a gun, but not learn anything about hand-to-hand.

Seems like weird logic, to me.

As far as over-confidence, I know there are plenty of bigger, badder dudes than me out there. But I also know my odds of dealing with attackers in general are much better than they would be if I had no training (or gym time, for that matter - strength and size matter, as does training). But I've been choked out, arm barred, etc by guys against whom I hope I never have a real fight. (A SEAL I was working out with cranked my neck so badly with a "can opener" last year that I was having trouble looking to the right for a couple months... This was not my idea of fun. He felt kind of bad about it, but things happen...)

I don't start fights, and have only had a few forced on my during my adult years; of those, a couple were actually attacks on other people, whom I felt compelled to defend. The others were the parking lot incident, noted above, and an issue with the boyfriend of a woman with whom I'd had a traffic accident (for which she was cited and found 100% at fault - pulled out of a parking lot into a highway and stopped in the road in front of traffic). In those two cases, I was attacked, although the attacks were both ineffective and immediately neutralized.

Note: in all cases, I either disengaged once the attack stopped, or else (in one case) ended up pinning and restraining a guy until the police showed up. I don't train in order to kick butt, I train to avoid getting my butt kicked. There's a huge difference.

Another note: I have a friend in the Florida panhandle who was a jail guard. He got stabbed once, by an inmate who used a shiv. My friend saw it coming and froze up. Took the point in his deltoid. Once he'd healed, he started looking for a dojo. Found ours, and started training pretty seriously. We did hand-to-hand, but also "fancy weapon" drills with staff, bokken, tanto. Although some other posters see no value in that, they came in handy for my friend a few months later. He was supervising a road crew when one inmate decided to attack him with a bush axe.

This time, my friend did NOT freeze up. Instead, he executed one of the sword and staff disarms we regularly trained. Took the bush axe, hip threw the inmate, and knocked him out in one move. Best case scenario, and undoubtedly some luck - BUT HE DID NOT FREEZE UP.

If that's the only advantage training ever gives him, I'm pretty sure he will feel it was worth the effort.
 
Umm, well go for it if you want. I have found that martial arts are just that... ARTS. They look pretty when in use and some are even marginally effective for self defense.

Try to find something more combat oriented instead of karate. Doing a round-house kick into a BG will only get you shoved to the ground and shot. Performing consistant strikes on the nervous system, organs or pressure points will be more effective.
 
If you don't fight on the ground in your "martial art" it is a demonstration sport, not a self-defense system. If you get promoted merely because you memorized a ritual, you are not involved in a self-defense system. Unless you are training all day every day, if you can go from walking in the door with a check to "black belt" in a few short years, good luck with that martial art when you need it.
 
Go do it as a thing to do with your kids, getting some exercise and forget about everything else. Bruce Lee was shot in the back and his son died as a result of negligence.
"...The ability to rise up if need be!..." You can very likely do that now. Just being the guy who 'says stop that' and can confidently talk, matters. Most criminals and rectal orifi will back off. Your size or martial arts skills don't matter either.
 
T. O'Heir, Bruce Lee died of pneumonia, he wasn't shot. His son was killed by a prop-master's negligence on a movie set, so negligence was involved, but I don't see your points. Also, based on your attitude that anybody can rise up, I guess all you need is to carry a gun. No need to do silly things like go to the range or take any training courses... you'll just step up when the time comes. It'll be natural for you, right?

Nocturnus31, I think we've covered that different schools have their emphasis in different places, and that the OP should look for a school that teaches what he wants to learn. By the way, if I ever throw a roundhouse kick at your head, it will mean I've already dropped you to your knees; even then, I'd use a knee. I don't like flashy kicks, myself - too much balance and reaction time is sacrificed. They look cool, but for practical purposes, kicks to the groin and knees are much more useful.

redstategunnut, ground arts are useful in certain circumstances, and should be part of a well-rounded course of study. However, where I train, our normal emphasis is on avoiding going to the ground, or on learning to escape and get back up quickly, as going to the ground when the BG has friends is not a good thing.

There are some other benefits of training that some folks seem to ignore.

1) Conditions one to take a hit or kick, or get grabbed or choked, and to deal with it. Those MMA guys under discussion earlier don't shrug things off because they are pure of heart and have the strength of ten men, they do it because they've conditioned themselves to take shock and pain, and keep going, and also because they are in excellent shape.

2) Conditions one to hit, kick, grab, lock, or choke others. Go to a class sometime, and watch how tentative most people are about attacking. This is very often due to them not wanting to hurt the other person. One of the hardest things for me to do is to get a new student to try to really hit me in the face. Most will try to pull the punch, or aim wide. I usually have to tell them, multiple times, to really hit me - it's my job to evade or deflect the punch. If they hit me, it's my fault, not theirs - if they don't try to hit me, my technique will get screwed up.

3) Conditions one to move, instead of freeze.

So, will training for a while turn you into Georges St Pierre? Of course not, in the vast majority of cases.

Will training at a school that actually focuses on self-defense help you defend yourself better than would training at a school that focuses on point-sparring? Of course.

Should schools that guarantee belts over a specified period of time or with a given expenditure of cash be avoided like the plague? Most definitely.

Does that mean training, in general, is pointless? Not at all.

But just like in any other sort of training (firearms, private pilot, calculus II, etc) the student's attitude and efforts matter at least as much as the instructor's talents and training philosophy. Quite often, the weak link in martial arts training (just as in firearms training, private pilot training, or calculus II) is the student.

So, find a school that shares your training goal (self-defense, if that's your primary goal); put real effort into it in the dojo; don't limit your training to the dojo (IE there's still the gym, conditioning training, yoga, etc that you can and should do on your own time); and always stay aware of your attitude.

And expect improvement, not miracles.
 
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Non-combat benefits of MA training

As I think about it, there are also some benefits we haven't really discussed, but that are still real.

1) Learning how to fall and roll. In my case, this helped me with downhill skiing, of all things. In aikido and aiki-jutsu, falling and rolling are viewed as pro-active, not reactive. One doesn't wait until one's joints are hyper-extended, one feels the lock coming on and throws oneself into a roll or fall to protect the joint. Perceiving falling as pro-active makes falling much less scary. As far as skiing went, I was able to rapidly move up to diamond and double diamond trails, once I realized that if I grew uncomfortable with speed or with an upcoming, ultra-tight turn, I could just toss my body uphill from my skis into a side fall, stop, and regroup.

In a training partner's case, extensive practice in rolling came in handy when a little old lady pulled out in front of his chopper. He flew over her hood, hit the ground in a shoulder roll, and came up with just some scuffed leather and no injuries beyond bruises.

2) Improved balance. A lot of people see a slow form, like in Tai Chi, and think, "What value is there in moving so slowly?" Try it sometime. If you can change directions and shift balance in super-slow-mo, you'll find it very easy to do it in normal speed. Slow speeds reveal poor foot placement and balance, and also can show where effort is being wasted. Slow speed drills therefore increase efficiency and economy of motion, and improve balance. Note that improved balance, posture, and footwork can really improve shooting skills... but who in this forum would care about that?

3) (Potentially) improved overall fitness. Where I'm currently training, we work out when it's hot and humid. We start out with 50 knuckle pushups, 50 crunches, a bunch of planks, running in place, jumping jacks as standard. Then we'll add things. Yesterday, one of the warm-ups involved several sets of one partner lying on his back, the other assuming a sort of push-up position above and slightly forward of him; guy on the ground grab the other guy's gi, and using a pull-up form, pulls his body up and forward across the mat; up guy advances position, and down guy does another pull-up. Cross the room several times this way, changing positions each leg. Then, we picked up various target pads, and did a round robin of ten kicks or punches on each pad, from either hand and foot. Again, this was the warmup. We did a few other things in there, too, like military style low crawls and jujutsu style shrimping. Everybody was sweating pretty hard before we started on any technique training.

4) Not to be overlooked: it's fun. And, by the way, OP, of the four of us who trained yesterday, three of us are 43, all class of '86. Not sure about the other guy, but think he's late 30's. And the three 43 year olds also hit the shooting range together with some frequency. Some of my longest lasting friendships have been with people from dojos where I've trained over the years.

Now, there are potential downsides. Overconfidence has been alluded to by several. Of course, overconfidence isn't a risk when it comes to CCW... Also, time and effort are required, and those are often precious. Money is usually required, too - although the organizations where I train usually only charge enough to pay the rent and replace broken training equipment. In such organizations, instructors don't get paid, or else they get paid a token amount.

And, of course, there's injury. Over the years, I've broken my left big toe (guy went for a takedown, slipped, and his knee fell square on my toe), dislocated both thumbs (thankfully not at the same time), had more cuts inside my mouth than I care to think about, sprained my neck, suffered chronic wrist pain (from nikkyo locks) for a couple years (those finally went away last year).

In training accidents, I've dislocated one partner's shoulder (he resisted taking a fall or roll until way too late in the throw - he said that himself) and just yesterday hyper-extended another's elbow with an arm bar (he was trying to show me I was out of position on his arm by resisting; meanwhile, I was shifting position because I could tell I was a bit off; we both felt it when one of his ligaments shifted and rolled around the elbow a bit; I let off as soon as I felt that - I felt bad about it, he looked at it as having been his own fault).

I won't count the number of times I've hit somebody a bit harder than anticipated, or they've done the same to me. Get two bodies in motion (or more, for that matter) and things happen.

Oddly enough, it's not normally the new guys who get hurt. It's normally the more experienced guys, who tend to push limits a bit more. Or, it's the more experienced guys, trying to protect the new guys - trying to catch a guy who's falling wrong can do bad things to backs, shoulders, etc.

Still, the benefits outweigh the negatives, at least in my view.
 
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MLeake:

Of course stand up matters. My point was only that if a given martial art ignored the ground game altogether, you better find one with some ground fighting in it, too. You are quite right, in a multiple bad guy scenario being on the ground with one of them is a bad place to be, but if you don't have a good ground game you will not be getting back to your feet. One might be taken down even when one did not plan to be on the ground.

I hear you on the age and injuries. I'm 43 and in the last twelve months I have broken my hand and several ribs sparring BJJ. The conditioning, mental and physical, of a true combative martial art cannot be matched by any kind of spin class, kettle bell workout or anything else. Many of the guys I roll with are half my age, but there's a few of us old guys in there, too.

I do not understand guys who strap on a gun and consider themselves prepared for whatever the day throws at them. Sure, the older you get the less one can rely upon grappling or striking, but like you said, we are in our forties and sparring in full contact combatives, so I'm not sure when I'll have to hang up the gi.
 
JerryM, the odds of one getting attacked in a manner that justifies using non-deadly force are higher than the odds of one getting attacked in a manner that justifies using deadly force.

Yet many on this forum think they should carry a gun, but not learn anything about hand-to-hand.

Seems like weird logic, to me.

Mleake, I'm not suggesting not to learn anything about hand to hand. Instead I'm saying that its use or attempted use puts you at a serious risk of being injured. Better alternatives are available IMO like less than lethals or even a knife basically a force multiplier. Something that will allow me to overcome many of the uncontrollable advantages potentially available to the bad guy.

You have thus far been lucky that your skill level and physicality has been sufficient to prevail in your cases. My fear would be the time it isn't enough. Could an approach that emphasizes avoiding H2H in favor of options that offer higher success probability have prevented the ensuing injuries or death?

Now that my muscles pull while mowing the grass or in one case while changing a stinking magazine in my pistol, I question the use of H2H. Now that the power in my left hook and straight right can no longer be absorbed by my older wrists without pain, I question the use of H2H.

I understand your point about places that you cannot carry and being able to defend yourself anyway. I avoid these places like the plague. I am not afraid of running away or calling police. So for me only in the rarest of rare occasions would I be forced to fight. While I can fight, I understand that having to do so even with training, could result in my serious injury or death. I would much prefer to avoid or escape and then bring a superior control to bear should my efforts to escape fail.

Realistic fight training causes injury as you attest. The ones that don't are garbage. I can't afford to miss work due to a hurt back or busted ankle. Permanent damage even in practice is also possible especially for guys like me (older) trying to get back and going against younger bigger men.
 
threegun, you still haven't addressed my point that sometimes you just don't get to choose. Sometimes, things happen, and a person is on you before you even know there's a problem. (And if a mugger has any brains at all, he doesn't telegraph his intent if he can sneak.)

So, while I understand you prefer LTL options such as sprays (and I think those aren't a bad idea), those items still need to be deployed. If you perceive the threat early enough to ready a spray, great. But what if you don't? What if the attack comes from behind, or a flank? Do you practice drawing your spray while physically engaged?

In other words, what, if any, plan do you have in the event you are surprised, and the BG is physically on top of you before you react?

As far as the knife goes, that's not considered LTL, you are now in the deadly force realm once again, so that doesn't really address the force continuum issue.
 
If they are on you your SA has failed. Now you are forced to fight. Hopefully you have some training and aren't out sized and aren't out skilled and aren't out moved and aren't out whatever you can think of when the bad guy is simply bigger, younger, or better at H2H than you are. Hopefully your training doesn't have you injured before the attack LOL.

This is why I simply don't worry about it anymore.

In other words, what, if any, plan do you have in the event you are surprised, and the BG is physically on top of you before you react?

I'm going to fight until I am unconscious or unable or until I get to a fight ending weapon.

To date I haven't been in such a predicament thanks to a mean Situational Awareness.
 
threegun, there is always a chance the other guy will be bigger, badder, and/or better. But the odds of that happening are much higher if one does not train.
 
Here's my 2 c....

Having done various martial arts, and having a ccl, and having been in a couple street fights back in the day, I've got an opinion, not an expert opinion, just an informed opinion....

If you get into a physical scrape,

1. It's good to have had martial arts experience. There are all types. Nowadays they basically fall into the 2 camps of standup or grappling/ground fighting. There are historical reasons for this too long to get into here. These two are mutually complementary; you need both to be well-rounded. You don't need both, but it helps since you won't always choose the circumstances of your confrontation.

2. Sparring is necessary; lifelike sparring is better. Krav Maga where you can wear pads and go 100%-ish might come closest to the real deal, judo rondori is probably good enough; if you have another style and your dojo has a fight club night, you're fine. If you just spar against a person who uses your school's style, you'd better hope that someone from your dojo is your attacker.

3. Handguns are good to have for personal defense. They're the biggest (and last) hammer you will use to solve a problem after all other tools in the tool box are gone. It's good to know how to use your handgun in all circumstances (again, you won't always choose the scenario; all of us would probably choose to be anywhere else, I'm sure). It's good to have some martial arts and sparring experience to allow you to judge the severity of your confrontation with less prejudice from adrenaline.

4. Mr. Miyagi's advice about avoiding punches is still the best "Don't be there." Fighting in the street is stupid. This holds even if you're the aggrieved party and even if you're an MMA superstar. If I had more 200 yard dash skills, I probably wouldn't have gotten into the scrapes that I did get stuck in.
 
Well I talked to them today. I asked if they emphasized comp or defense. The answer was "defense because some never compete. We teach the spiritual Kata and through that defense is learned". They do fast strike, light contact sparring. Tournaments are full strength with pads and I have seen my kids spar that way. I did ask if they workout hard enough and tough enough to be prepared for actual combat if necessary. The answer was a unanimous "yes". Belts are earned through Kata's and sparring successfully. I asked about the ground stuff and the response was that "we aim for it to never get there, but if it does we teach mostly on escape techniques" as they also brought up the point of when the BG's friends are around. There is weapons training which was explained as extremely useful to disarm an attacker with a weapon etc. No contracts, $40 a month, 3 classes a week. I know for a fact they are not a McDojo. Sounds good to me. Now I just have to organized child care and I am good. Thanks all.
 
I just want to point out something that really bugs me, "Ground fighting/game".

This is like talking about "gunfighting". This is not something you want to do, it's not quite self defense, and it's more likely to get you hurt by your opponent or his buddies.

The longer you spend in contact with your opponent, the more likely you are to get hurt. Staying on the ground, or going to the ground with your opponent is a poor choice, because you are pursuing your opponent further than you should for "defending" yourself. It's not a game, it's a defensive action.
 
MLeake Said:
I think we've covered that different schools have their emphasis in different places, and that the OP should look for a school that teaches what he wants to learn. By the way, if I ever throw a roundhouse kick at your head, it will mean I've already dropped you to your knees; even then, I'd use a knee. I don't like flashy kicks, myself - too much balance and reaction time is sacrificed. They look cool, but for practical purposes, kicks to the groin and knees are much more useful.

I still say that martial arts are just an artform man. You can train and train but you are just dancing. Back to the round-house kick.... ok....lol.
 
Nocturnus31, a roundhouse kick is not a spinning kick, and it has it's benefits. Maybe your opinion of martial arts is different than ours, but I have put my skills against others before, and come out on top. No, kicks weren't used, no fancy techniques, and certainly no flowery movements. However, I remained balanced, in rhythm with my opponent, and came out on top. I have used disarms, kicks, and even techniques that to you seem pretty(useless) and it's worked.

How you practice it determines it's effectiveness. Our school aways had two catagories, the people who wanted realistic sparring, and those who would prefer to practice their forms for competition and spiritul reasons. Speed, aggression, power, and reaction are all important, and all are practiced. If this is just an art form to you, and nothing else, that's fine.

There are those who can shoot well, and those who shoot well under pressure. But it takes a different method of practice to shoot well under pressure in a life or death situation. Same goes for martial arts.

@Threegun: Thank you.
 
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