isn't not having a manual safety(like for a glock) dangerous?
- Thread starter Hawainpanda
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People handling tools of any sort without knowledge and skill gained through training are dangerous.
I was standing near an "trained expert" state law enforcement official when he discharged a S&W semi-auto with thumb safety, a 12-pound DA trigger and a magazine safety into a cement floor while trying to reholster in the sheriff's office. The bullet-jacket fragments hit a couple officers in the legs. That was extreme good luck.
I was standing near an "trained expert" state law enforcement official when he discharged a S&W semi-auto with thumb safety, a 12-pound DA trigger and a magazine safety into a cement floor while trying to reholster in the sheriff's office. The bullet-jacket fragments hit a couple officers in the legs. That was extreme good luck.
After 8 years of military flying, I couldn't disagree more. Humans are always the least reliable component in any system. Building safeguards against human fallibility is a concept firmly embraced in every community EXCEPT for the shooters.
You can't have safety without people making the effort - but that's all it is; an effort. Safety comes from trained people managing gear designed to minimize the dangers of human weakness.
Obiwan,
I feel a similar frustration, but mine is born of the fact that those statistics DO exist, but are either uncompiled or unavailable. I'll bet Glock has a very good idea how many of it's guns have Kb'd with factory ammo, but they're not going to tell us that, either.
Until someone inside the affected organizations assembles and releases the data, I'm going to use words like "seem" instead of pretending nothing is going on. I have read, repeatedly, that several agencies in particular, like the DC police, had a huge spike in ADs when they went from revolvers to Glocks. Couple that with the obvious: the trigger pull was cut in half, and you have some poorly documented facts that aren't difficult to believe.
So we can either ignore what we hear, or treat stuff like this as likely, but unconfirmed. I think there's alot more utility in not treating the real world like a courtroom.
Single action & double action revolvers never had any kind of external safety devices until *very* recently, & no one thought they were unreasonably dangerous. Load a good double action revolver, leave the trigger alone, & it won't shoot! Pull the trigger, and it *will* shoot! Wow, what'll they think of next? 
Hmm, maybe those evil black Glocks are more old fashioned than we thought.
My Dad always drilled me when he first taught me to shoot, first with the hammer on the .410 single bbl, then with the safeties on the .22 rf & 20 ga pump, but he left no doubt at all about the 2 most important things: Do *NOT* point the gun at anything you aren't willing to shoot, and *KEEP YOUR COTTON PICKIN FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOU'RE READY TO SHOOT*!
Works pretty good with short guns too.
Hmm, maybe those evil black Glocks are more old fashioned than we thought.My Dad always drilled me when he first taught me to shoot, first with the hammer on the .410 single bbl, then with the safeties on the .22 rf & 20 ga pump, but he left no doubt at all about the 2 most important things: Do *NOT* point the gun at anything you aren't willing to shoot, and *KEEP YOUR COTTON PICKIN FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOU'RE READY TO SHOOT*!
Works pretty good with short guns too.
Good training in gun handling & safety is sorely needed in this country.
We used to have the civilian marksmanship corps. to teach children marksmanship & gun safety. We do have the NRA courses but they are too few and far between.
The best safety on a gun is between the ears.
We used to have the civilian marksmanship corps. to teach children marksmanship & gun safety. We do have the NRA courses but they are too few and far between.
The best safety on a gun is between the ears.
CarbineCaleb
New member
As everyone else is saying, keeping finger off the trigger until actually ready to fire is one of the fundamental safety rules for handling a gun. If you do that, the safety really isn't doing anything.
I don't know if a safety is a big problem either... can always just leave it off... but yes, a safety could cause confusion, which could be hazardous, either if you think you can shoot it and *need* to, or think it won't fire, and muck something up.
I don't know if a safety is a big problem either... can always just leave it off... but yes, a safety could cause confusion, which could be hazardous, either if you think you can shoot it and *need* to, or think it won't fire, and muck something up.
From Dec 2003:
Top police gun prone to accidental firing
While this is MSM's take on the issue, I have seen a couple of videos of Detroit LEOs reholstering their Glocks at the firing line with their fingers in the trigger guards. BOOM! LEO goes on limited duty with GSW to thigh.
Here's a classic where LEO is giving safety lecture in classroom and ADs his Glock.
Cop shoots self with Glock
or here if the above doesn't work:
Cop shoots self with Glock
Let's never forget, whether it's a Glock, revolver, knife, etc, its the Fool, not the Tool. There are only 4 Rules.
Top police gun prone to accidental firing
While this is MSM's take on the issue, I have seen a couple of videos of Detroit LEOs reholstering their Glocks at the firing line with their fingers in the trigger guards. BOOM! LEO goes on limited duty with GSW to thigh.
Here's a classic where LEO is giving safety lecture in classroom and ADs his Glock.
Cop shoots self with Glock
or here if the above doesn't work:
Cop shoots self with Glock
Let's never forget, whether it's a Glock, revolver, knife, etc, its the Fool, not the Tool. There are only 4 Rules.
I have seen dozens of people holster cocked DA autos...wanna talk about an accident waiting to happen. 
Based on our scientific conclusions here, there seems to be no way they could possibly have done it without the gun going off
Gotta be careful too, because they all want to grab the trigger when you mention that um.....hey...uh...mister...you didn't decock your pistol
I also like the wheelgunners that cock their revolver and then wonder.....how do I uncock it???? " In training I always cocked it "(and shot it till it was empty)
Handy...I would also be interested in some baseline data regarding ND rates when a department simply changed weapon types.....not just to Glocks....but how many people simply did stupid stuff because their cheese got moved.
What could be real enlightening would be verifiable statistics on what percentage of ND's are commited by basically careless people....hard to track I admit.
According to Frank, the Detroit police department has a high incidence of high cops....could be a contributing factor there as well
The simple answers are often just that...simple
Based on our scientific conclusions here, there seems to be no way they could possibly have done it without the gun going off
Gotta be careful too, because they all want to grab the trigger when you mention that um.....hey...uh...mister...you didn't decock your pistol
I also like the wheelgunners that cock their revolver and then wonder.....how do I uncock it???? " In training I always cocked it "(and shot it till it was empty)
Handy...I would also be interested in some baseline data regarding ND rates when a department simply changed weapon types.....not just to Glocks....but how many people simply did stupid stuff because their cheese got moved.
What could be real enlightening would be verifiable statistics on what percentage of ND's are commited by basically careless people....hard to track I admit.
According to Frank, the Detroit police department has a high incidence of high cops....could be a contributing factor there as well
The simple answers are often just that...simple
axslingerW
New member
I carry a sigma without a safty. however, it is striker fired and therefore not "cocked and locked". It has a little stiffer trigger pull than a glock, and a lot stiffer than a 1911 or a revolver. I feel safer with this because there is less to have to do in a moment of stress to make it go bang. The xd40 I looked at had a grip safety and a trigger safety. I don't really think its better or worse than my sigma, just different. (in fact I almost bought the xd and will probably own one in 9mm soon!. The glock would have been the first choice if not for the location of the magazine release (my thumbs found it difficult due to the small size). I believe the glock is striker fired as well and therefore not carried in a "cocked" position. Shouldn't be a problem if basic rules of safety are followed.
Lion In Winter
New member
"Glock is the first gun to suggest that a light trigger and no safety was "okay". (The 1911 was not. JMB did not expect anyone to carry a cocked and UNlocked automatic.)"
If you do a bit of research you will find that JMB did not provide a manual safety, only a half cock notch, until the US military insisted on one.
the Glock Safe Action has the striker is preloaded to the rear about 40% after a round is chambered. The user must then pull the striker via the trigger another 60% before it can disengage to fire.
1911 trigger specifications call for a 5.5 to 7 pound trigger weight-the same as the standard Glock trigger. the good or bad, depending on your own view, is the 1911 requires less trigger movement to fire.
If you do a bit of research you will find that JMB did not provide a manual safety, only a half cock notch, until the US military insisted on one.
the Glock Safe Action has the striker is preloaded to the rear about 40% after a round is chambered. The user must then pull the striker via the trigger another 60% before it can disengage to fire.
1911 trigger specifications call for a 5.5 to 7 pound trigger weight-the same as the standard Glock trigger. the good or bad, depending on your own view, is the 1911 requires less trigger movement to fire.
progunner1957
Moderator
Glocks are like revolvers - they don't have safeties, but they are somehow considered "safe."
The bottom line is this: If you don't want to blow a hole in something (or someone) don't pull the trigger!!!
The bottom line is this: If you don't want to blow a hole in something (or someone) don't pull the trigger!!!
That is correct, but JMB did not intend the gun to be carried cocked. He provided an inertial firing pin, which replaced the manual firing pin safety on the earlier guns - which both allowed hammer down carry. It is purely absurd to presume that he intended the gun to be carried cocked and unlocked.
Glocks are not like revolvers. As listed and recognized by law enforcement in the link Shorthair provided, Glocks have much lighter/shorter trigger pulls than revolvers. Half the trigger pull weight, in fact.
AD stories were very common in the early days of Glocks in America.
Years ago the LEO's were having a good many reported AD's according to gun rags.
The Glock is safe enough if you don't carry it in a purse or pocket without a holster... other items in the purse or pocket can fire it... a lipstick, pencil, keys, or who knows what?
A couple of people said in this thread, to keep your finger away from the bang switch! That would help a lot.
Somebody said, in this thread, that the Glock had a heavy trigger pull...
Where did that come from?
I've never felt that way with any of several Glock models I've fired.
Years ago the LEO's were having a good many reported AD's according to gun rags.
The Glock is safe enough if you don't carry it in a purse or pocket without a holster... other items in the purse or pocket can fire it... a lipstick, pencil, keys, or who knows what?
A couple of people said in this thread, to keep your finger away from the bang switch! That would help a lot.
Somebody said, in this thread, that the Glock had a heavy trigger pull...
Where did that come from?
I've never felt that way with any of several Glock models I've fired.
Lion In Winter
New member
"It is purely absurd to presume that he intended the gun to be carried cocked and unlocked."
Who is presuming? I merely supplied the correct history. I thought you might want to know this.
A this point in my research, I fail to find any mention of what Browning intended for any of his designs to do other than to get his ideas sold.
Personal data on JMB is indeed quite sparse nor did anyone, as far as I can find, think to interview him to back up any of these now common wisdom pronouncements.
As a point of fact, the original intent for the manual thumb safety, According to Clawsons books and or supported by Bady, was so that the gun could be made safe one handed while astride a horse.
Again, based on my reading on the matter, it was not until Mr. Cooper popularized "cocked and locked" carry in the IPSC game, did it gain widespread acceptance.
Prior to this many carried with nothing in the chamber followed on by hammer down carry or half cock carry.
I vaguely recall reading that one Texas Ranger used the cocked and unlocked carry though.
But we digress.
Who is presuming? I merely supplied the correct history. I thought you might want to know this.
A this point in my research, I fail to find any mention of what Browning intended for any of his designs to do other than to get his ideas sold.
Personal data on JMB is indeed quite sparse nor did anyone, as far as I can find, think to interview him to back up any of these now common wisdom pronouncements.
As a point of fact, the original intent for the manual thumb safety, According to Clawsons books and or supported by Bady, was so that the gun could be made safe one handed while astride a horse.
Again, based on my reading on the matter, it was not until Mr. Cooper popularized "cocked and locked" carry in the IPSC game, did it gain widespread acceptance.
Prior to this many carried with nothing in the chamber followed on by hammer down carry or half cock carry.
I vaguely recall reading that one Texas Ranger used the cocked and unlocked carry though.
But we digress.
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