Shane Tuttle
Staff
So, you're agreeing the fact there's a difference in your statement of assaulting a fellow citizen and mine taking out a person hell bent on the destruction of our country?
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Is waterboarding torture?
- Thread starter Creature
- Start date
Waterboarding and other forms of torture have no benefits.
For a nation to pride itself on not resorting to an official condonement of torture - is laudable. For a nation, however, to tell the world that its own waterboarding/torture is acceptable - is ,well, typical of a nation that has lost its way and become like all the rest and worse than others.
Any U.S. Pyschologist who has participated in waterboarding ought to have his/her license taken away and be banned from the profession for life. Already the American Psychological Association has officially decried waterboarding and other forms of torture as unacceptable.
Until harsh actions are taken against the American practitioners of waterboarding/torture - it will continue to taint the character of the U.S.A. That the U.S. now also uses the secret police and military forces of other nations to carry out torture on behalf of the U.S.A. - is also a grave issue.
What's very bizarre - is that even after the American Psychological Association and similar health and human right organizations have clearly decried waterboarding as an obvious form of torture - brutal torture - there are folks still so invested in the ideology of performing it...that they refuse to see it for what it truely is.
The Spanish Inquisition defended the use of torture by rationalizing that its actions were not so much 'torture' inasmuch a determined inquiry into the sanctity of souls - a way of actually saving people from greater evils. Sadly that same dynamic is present in the thinking of people today who defend 'waterboarding.'
For a nation to pride itself on not resorting to an official condonement of torture - is laudable. For a nation, however, to tell the world that its own waterboarding/torture is acceptable - is ,well, typical of a nation that has lost its way and become like all the rest and worse than others.
Any U.S. Pyschologist who has participated in waterboarding ought to have his/her license taken away and be banned from the profession for life. Already the American Psychological Association has officially decried waterboarding and other forms of torture as unacceptable.
Until harsh actions are taken against the American practitioners of waterboarding/torture - it will continue to taint the character of the U.S.A. That the U.S. now also uses the secret police and military forces of other nations to carry out torture on behalf of the U.S.A. - is also a grave issue.
What's very bizarre - is that even after the American Psychological Association and similar health and human right organizations have clearly decried waterboarding as an obvious form of torture - brutal torture - there are folks still so invested in the ideology of performing it...that they refuse to see it for what it truely is.
The Spanish Inquisition defended the use of torture by rationalizing that its actions were not so much 'torture' inasmuch a determined inquiry into the sanctity of souls - a way of actually saving people from greater evils. Sadly that same dynamic is present in the thinking of people today who defend 'waterboarding.'
Well this sleep deprivation thing is clearly intolerable. Miss a night or two of sleep and your being tortured because if you miss 3 to 6 months you'll DIE.
Looks like we're a torture society all around. Sleep deprivation makes a midwatch torture if you worked a double yesterday. WIDESPREAD in systematic torture in the military. Doctors working as interns are subjected to repeated and pervasive torture for what? To become phisichians. Horrific! We are truely morally bankrupt.....
A slew of class action lawsuits and criminal charges need be filed IMMEDIATLY. These blood thirsty entities are pandering to neocon corporate and military interests.
A country that would deprive someone of sleep is as morally bankrupt as terrorists.
FOR SHAME!!
I think we are at about lap #3 in the strained definition, exploded view, facist state circle.
We have had an original one with the blood thirsty neocon thing though.
Looks like we're a torture society all around. Sleep deprivation makes a midwatch torture if you worked a double yesterday. WIDESPREAD in systematic torture in the military. Doctors working as interns are subjected to repeated and pervasive torture for what? To become phisichians. Horrific! We are truely morally bankrupt.....
A slew of class action lawsuits and criminal charges need be filed IMMEDIATLY. These blood thirsty entities are pandering to neocon corporate and military interests.
A country that would deprive someone of sleep is as morally bankrupt as terrorists.
FOR SHAME!!
The arguement is repeatedly dependent on a strained definition of torture, an exploded view of what the scope of what waterboarding is or has been used for (asphixiation, dunking heads underwater, drowning, law enforcement applications), or the use of a fascist state scenario to try to keep a hold of the hash interrogation=torture sophistry.
I think we are at about lap #3 in the strained definition, exploded view, facist state circle.
We have had an original one with the blood thirsty neocon thing though.
How is pointing out precedent "diversion?"
Because the precedent isnt applicable. We do not waterboard POW's of opposing armies. We do not waterboard civilians. No one here is arguing to the contrary. Bring up examples where soldiers or civilians were waterboarded and people were ultimately punished for it doesn't show anything because thats not what is being discussed here.
So, does that mean waterboarding is not torture or that it is okay to torture certain people?
No, waterboarding isn't torture because it doesn't have any of the traditional characteristics.
And im still waiting for that evidence which shows it is not effective.
So, you're agreeing the fact there's a difference in your statement of assaulting a fellow citizen and mine taking out a person hell bent on the destruction of our country?
No, silly. I am disagreeing with your premise to allow a no-holds barred approach to dealing with people who are hell bent on causing us harm at the cost of our honor as a whole. Just to send a message not to mess with us. I thought I had spelled that out clearly enough for the average sixth grader to understand that your approach does more harm to us than good.
Well this sleep deprivation thing is clearly intolerable. Miss a night or two of sleep and your being tortured because if you miss 3 to 6 months you'll DIE.
Looks like we're a torture society all around. Sleep deprivation makes a midwatch torture if you worked a double yesterday. WIDESPREAD in systematic torture in the military. Doctors working as interns are subjected to repeated and pervasive torture for what? To become phisichians. Horrific! We are truely morally bankrupt.....
I am not talking about missing a night of sleep nor am I talking about the lack of sleep experienced in the military in carrying out one's duties. You know very well what I am talking about. Sleep deprivation, in the true sense of the term, is well documented and extremely dangerous.
Well this sleep deprivation thing is clearly intolerable. Miss a night or two of sleep and your being tortured because if you miss 3 to 6 months you'll DIE.
So by your definition, it is OK to bring back horsewhipping because it isn't lethal?
Bring up examples where soldiers or civilians were waterboarded and people were ultimately punished for it doesn't show anything because thats not what is being discussed here.
It is hard to bring up examples of people being tortured by persons who were not punished for it, because those incidents are not documented for various reasons, including "National Security reasons".
I (twice) and others on this forum have actually been waterborded. That real life experience is discounted as it wasn't by an enemy. But what made it very realistic is what Unregestered eluded to. You start to wonder what kind of person would be so quick to do this to thier own.
Truth be told there is alot of sohestrey of the topic here because that is what is REQUIRED to put waterboarding in the torture category. I've summed it up SEVEALR times but all the seemingly infinate ability to play make believe to justify an on it's face reality inluding having it CONTRIDICT training given by those held as experts in iterrogation and intellegence gathering.
Forget using your heads guys, your emotions have ya' seized up. You can't stomach the reality of it so don't pretend to understand the topic so enough dancing around from one example or another of a strained definition of torture, an exploded view of what the scope of the subject is (asphyxiation, for example), or the use of a fascist state scenario to try to keep a hold of the hash interrogation=torture sophistry.
Defining something that leaves you whole, uninjured, and as well 20 minutes after as were before (esentially frightening them into spilling their guts about he details) requires a very strained definition of torture and facing it for threatening ANY nations national security or for killing their innocent civilians for the purpose of causing terror is hardly unreasonable let alone immoral.
Stretch, cloud, muddle, hyperbolize, or fain knoledgablity as much as you like it simple doesn't fit.
Odd don't you think that applying Occums Razor or noting that regaurdless of the above statment having stood for pges without rebuttal, both evidence that without flat out denial of critical thinking and even evidence the waterboarding=torture sophestrey can't remain.
So go on guys. Spin up a new strained definition, misrepresentation of the scope, or facist state scenario. It's hard to face being incorrect but far more damaging to one's self the walk in denial.
Truth be told there is alot of sohestrey of the topic here because that is what is REQUIRED to put waterboarding in the torture category. I've summed it up SEVEALR times but all the seemingly infinate ability to play make believe to justify an on it's face reality inluding having it CONTRIDICT training given by those held as experts in iterrogation and intellegence gathering.
Forget using your heads guys, your emotions have ya' seized up. You can't stomach the reality of it so don't pretend to understand the topic so enough dancing around from one example or another of a strained definition of torture, an exploded view of what the scope of the subject is (asphyxiation, for example), or the use of a fascist state scenario to try to keep a hold of the hash interrogation=torture sophistry.
Defining something that leaves you whole, uninjured, and as well 20 minutes after as were before (esentially frightening them into spilling their guts about he details) requires a very strained definition of torture and facing it for threatening ANY nations national security or for killing their innocent civilians for the purpose of causing terror is hardly unreasonable let alone immoral.
Stretch, cloud, muddle, hyperbolize, or fain knoledgablity as much as you like it simple doesn't fit.
Odd don't you think that applying Occums Razor or noting that regaurdless of the above statment having stood for pges without rebuttal, both evidence that without flat out denial of critical thinking and even evidence the waterboarding=torture sophestrey can't remain.
So go on guys. Spin up a new strained definition, misrepresentation of the scope, or facist state scenario. It's hard to face being incorrect but far more damaging to one's self the walk in denial.
I've been lurking on the periphery of this thread for the last few days, not bothering to weigh in, but, by the definition of "torture" given by Bruxley above, taking a blindfolded prisoner out to a helicopter, and convincing that prisoner that the helicopter has taken off and is flying along at 1000', and unless he gives you the answers you want to hear, he's going to be thrown out the door, "isn't torture". Well, it IS torture, and the US has made its objections to torture known time and time again. The difference between "waterboarding" in training, and real-life waterboarding is that you can be absolutely 100% sure that someone who "waterboards" you in training isn't going to kill you, because that would make the training useless, no? Kill every last one of these murdering scum three times over if it makes you happy, but to claim that "Oh, this isn't torture because we're the Good Guys(tm)" is bovine excrement.
Here's a 'scenario' for you guys....
Sept. 15th, 2001 (AP) REUTERS:
The White House today announced that a 20th hijacker, Mohammad al-Qahtani, had been in the custody of US Intellegence for 2 weeks and had threatened that there would be an attack in New York as revenge for US forign policy but that interrogation had failed to yeild enough details to prevent it. "Other less reliable hints were present that became more substanative in light of his threats but we were not able to get the information needed to prevent this attack from Qahtani. Harsh interrogation such as waterboarding was suggested but the Administration took the position that even though waterboarding leaves you whole, uninjured, and as well 20 minutes after as were before that it wasn't justifiable." said Condeleeza Rice, a top Presidential Advisor. "Even in light of this event, waterboarding still would not be used to prevent such an attack. America enjoys a standing as a moral authority in the world and nothing warrents jepordizing that." President Bush announced in a press conference later that day.
Democrat minority leadership responded..................
Sept. 15th, 2001 (AP) REUTERS:
The White House today announced that a 20th hijacker, Mohammad al-Qahtani, had been in the custody of US Intellegence for 2 weeks and had threatened that there would be an attack in New York as revenge for US forign policy but that interrogation had failed to yeild enough details to prevent it. "Other less reliable hints were present that became more substanative in light of his threats but we were not able to get the information needed to prevent this attack from Qahtani. Harsh interrogation such as waterboarding was suggested but the Administration took the position that even though waterboarding leaves you whole, uninjured, and as well 20 minutes after as were before that it wasn't justifiable." said Condeleeza Rice, a top Presidential Advisor. "Even in light of this event, waterboarding still would not be used to prevent such an attack. America enjoys a standing as a moral authority in the world and nothing warrents jepordizing that." President Bush announced in a press conference later that day.
Democrat minority leadership responded..................
Still disagree?Defining something that leaves you whole, uninjured, and as well 20 minutes after as were before (esentially frightening them into spilling their guts about he details) requires a very strained definition of torture and facing it for threatening ANY nations national security or for killing their innocent civilians for the purpose of causing terror is hardly unreasonable let alone immoral.
Still disagree?
Yes. It is still wrong and it still should not be done. Mohammad al-Qahtani could have as easily stated that the plan was to suicide truck bomb the WTC.
Plenty of these yokels will promise that doom is coming to the USA. Torture them enough and they will tell you anything to stop, it needn't be true though.
But in REALITY the 3 people waterboarded for a grand total of less then 3 minutes DID yield vulable intell that saved unnumbered American lives from real terrorist attacks.
The Peril of Prevention principle strikes again.......
"...other less reliable hints became more substainative......."
When you KNOW, not think or are reasonabley assured.......
I'm very happy your not in a position to determine the security on this nation if you feel that it is better to let 2000 innocent Americans die by burning, crucshing, or jumping to thier deaths so that one person that is known to posses actionable intell isn't subjected to something that leaves you whole, uninjured, and as well 20 minutes after as were before (esentially frightening them into spilling their guts about he details).
I assume you wouldn't brandish a loaded firearm at someone that had broken into your home and threaten to shoot them either. THAT will frighten them with the fear of eminent death, that's torture, you need to vacate your home and call 911 instead.
The Peril of Prevention principle strikes again.......
"...other less reliable hints became more substainative......."
When you KNOW, not think or are reasonabley assured.......
I'm very happy your not in a position to determine the security on this nation if you feel that it is better to let 2000 innocent Americans die by burning, crucshing, or jumping to thier deaths so that one person that is known to posses actionable intell isn't subjected to something that leaves you whole, uninjured, and as well 20 minutes after as were before (esentially frightening them into spilling their guts about he details).
I assume you wouldn't brandish a loaded firearm at someone that had broken into your home and threaten to shoot them either. THAT will frighten them with the fear of eminent death, that's torture, you need to vacate your home and call 911 instead.
Sorry Bruxley but the majority of people here and in the nation overall disagree with you.
I oppose waterboarding, even for the whack job you mentioned. I oppose it not because in one instance it MIGHT have yielded some valid information that might have been properly acted on which might have stopped 9/11.
I oppose it because it would not be used on that one individual or those three. If accepted it would be used broadly. If approached as simply an aggressive interrogation technique which can be used quickly and does no harm there would be no reason not to use it often and broadly to speed up the process.
Interrogator "Tell us something"
Suspect "No"
Interrogator "Water board him."
IF those three actually yielded information of any value still remains to be seen. There is every reason to believe ANY information they gave would be spun as having saved "countless American lives" simply because the barbaric method of questioning would need to be justified. Of course once the method is known to be employed I see no reason for those who are subjected to it to not lie and say anything.
It has been used three times THAT WE KNOW OF. I have no doubt it hasn't been used more. Thankfully the outrage is helping to prevent further use. Still the legislature should act to ban this practice.
I oppose waterboarding, even for the whack job you mentioned. I oppose it not because in one instance it MIGHT have yielded some valid information that might have been properly acted on which might have stopped 9/11.
I oppose it because it would not be used on that one individual or those three. If accepted it would be used broadly. If approached as simply an aggressive interrogation technique which can be used quickly and does no harm there would be no reason not to use it often and broadly to speed up the process.
Interrogator "Tell us something"
Suspect "No"
Interrogator "Water board him."
IF those three actually yielded information of any value still remains to be seen. There is every reason to believe ANY information they gave would be spun as having saved "countless American lives" simply because the barbaric method of questioning would need to be justified. Of course once the method is known to be employed I see no reason for those who are subjected to it to not lie and say anything.
It has been used three times THAT WE KNOW OF. I have no doubt it hasn't been used more. Thankfully the outrage is helping to prevent further use. Still the legislature should act to ban this practice.
and you have the cajones to claim others are making false comparisons. What a joke.I assume you wouldn't brandish a loaded firearm at someone that had broken into your home and threaten to shoot them either. THAT will frighten them with the fear of eminent death, that's torture, you need to vacate your home and call 911 instead.
There is a world of difference between being willing to use lethal force to defend your family and yourself from an immediate and direct threat versus taking a defenseless prisoner who is completely in your power and torturing them for information they may or may not have.
The difference between "waterboarding" in training, and real-life waterboarding is that you can be absolutely 100% sure that someone who "waterboards" you in training isn't going to kill you, because that would make the training useless, no?
WRONG WRONG WRONG
That is FAR from 100%. It becomes more of a 'hope' The thoughts "WTF!.......are these people INSANE?!?!..........does the chain of command know what's going on here?!?!?!?!............how many people die in THIS training excercise?!?!?!..........is anyone even watching what is happening?........what the hell?!?!?!?!" overwelm ANY sense of a begnign training.
Read about it from this guys first hand accounting
Still disagree?
As one who spends most of his life in Manhattan, rides the R train to work almost every day, and sits in a 51st floor office just a couple blocks from the NYSE, I know I'd be right in the middle of any such attack. I say "yes", I still disagree. I am not suicidal, but I will not abandon my morals or my principles in the name of fear. We're quickly becomming a nation of scared little ninnies, far too ready to compromise our liberties, our morals, and our principles for a false sense of security.
What did this guy do to deserve to be complely in your power by being held hostage by you and fear for his life?There is a world of difference between being willing to use lethal force to defend your family and yourself from an immediate and direct threat versus taking a defenseless prisoner who is completely in your power and torturing them for information they may or may not have.
WRONG WRONG WRONG
That is FAR from 100%. It becomes more of a 'hope' The thoughts "WTF!.......are these people INSANE?!?!..........does the chain of command know what's going on here?!?!?!?!............how many people die in THIS training excercise?!?!?!..........is anyone even watching what is happening?........what the hell?!?!?!?!" overwelm ANY sense of a begnign training.
Yet you should know it will end. When it is done to the volunteer though it can be repeated again and again and again and they know it. You talk about how there is no harm 20 min later. The prisoner though knows he will be subjected to this over and over again. What is more he might know that death will not even provide escape to the torture. He will just suffer on and on until he tells the captors something they wish to hear.
When done "for real" it is more terrifying. What more when it is done for real it will REMAIN terrifying even afterwards.
As one who spends most of his life in Manhattan, rides the R train to work almost every day, and sits in a 51st floor office just a couple blocks from the NYSE, I know I'd be right in the middle of any such attack. I say "yes", I still disagree. I am not suicidal, but I will not abandon my morals or my principles in the name of fear. We're quickly becomming a nation of scared little ninnies, far too ready to compromise our liberties, our morals, and our principles for a false sense of security.
So you would have supported the President's position about alowing the attack to take place rather then 'abandon his morals and principles in the name of fear'.
What did this guy do to deserve to be complely in your power by being held hostage by you and fear for his life?
Arent these only-half-related examples just plain ignorant?
He is not held hostage. He is a threat which has broken into my home with my family present.
You are correct though, your half-related example is ignorant.
So you would have supported the President's position about alowing the attack to take place rather then 'abandon his morals and principles in the name of fear'.
So you'd abandon your morals and principles for the illusion of security?