IS TRAINING OF ANY USE?
- Thread starter pluspinc
- Start date
- Status
Hi all-
PlusP- it would really help me (and, I am sure others) if I was able to understand what kind of training you actually suggest and provide- i.e. which content in the curriculum. In the end, what do you teach the students at your academy? I don't mean the "glossy" version but the actual content of the training. Maybe a typical schedule with the activities involved?
Your premises are intriguing - I am sure everyone (even your detractors) would be interested in your actual answers - as people seem to mainly object to the fact that you have not given any yet. So I am really hoping you will be coming through!
You all take care - mckysdad
PlusP- it would really help me (and, I am sure others) if I was able to understand what kind of training you actually suggest and provide- i.e. which content in the curriculum. In the end, what do you teach the students at your academy? I don't mean the "glossy" version but the actual content of the training. Maybe a typical schedule with the activities involved?
Your premises are intriguing - I am sure everyone (even your detractors) would be interested in your actual answers - as people seem to mainly object to the fact that you have not given any yet. So I am really hoping you will be coming through!
You all take care - mckysdad
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
"NO previous firearms experience and need about 10 minutes with her to allow her to obtain a 95+% hit rate. "
Wow - thats pretty damn good. In fact - thats much better than my results when teaching new shooters... Better than Most any other trainers as well.
You must be a Jedi Master.
Obviously we are all absolute fools not to emediatly signing up for you classes! 10 minutes - wow - imagine what we could learn in a whole HOUR!
Still - I have a couple concerns...
You still have shown no knowledge of the concept of the "Double Tap".
Scoffing the practice of teaching "drills"?
So what do you teach your students when that gun they got jams? Oh - "Just Clear the Jam". Nice - I shudda thunk that one myseff.
TRYING to remember a list? Let me scoff a second - See - when you teach for more than 10 minutes - your student wont have to try to remember. She will KNOW the function just like she knows... well - I wont refrence the back seat like you did...
You said you teach "Survive" - Oh - now THATS what I have been missing! Your right... The whole self defense community missed that point... What a breakthrough. I have wasted every round fired up to this point. I am now enlightened!
Do you honestly expect me to believe this jibberish your gushing?
Stop clintoning the issue - I dont want to hear more smoke - EXPLAIN WHAT YOU TALKING ABOUT IN PLAIN ENGLISH. You can even use big words, since I am so ignorant - I opened my Dictionary file so I can follow along.
No Theories Please... I wanna hear STEP by STEP.
Also - 900+ videos? Maybe. But Video doesnt show everything. Your missing the most important part when your watching video - PERSPECTIVE. You are not seeing what the engaged people are seeing. Rent the movie STRANGE DAYS - When we can capture recordings as depicted in that film, THEN YOU GOT SOMETHING. You can get somethings outta video footage - but you absolutely can not base all your theories from video tape no matter how much video tape you have. You also need real world, real time experience. If you cant get that yourself you need to get that from those who have it. LISTEN to them and dont talk... just listen. Hear them. I say this because I think you have not "opened your ears" yet. Your saying "Use the Force" - Okay - Tell me How.
Wow - thats pretty damn good. In fact - thats much better than my results when teaching new shooters... Better than Most any other trainers as well.
You must be a Jedi Master.
Obviously we are all absolute fools not to emediatly signing up for you classes! 10 minutes - wow - imagine what we could learn in a whole HOUR!
Still - I have a couple concerns...
You still have shown no knowledge of the concept of the "Double Tap".
Scoffing the practice of teaching "drills"?
So what do you teach your students when that gun they got jams? Oh - "Just Clear the Jam". Nice - I shudda thunk that one myseff.
TRYING to remember a list? Let me scoff a second - See - when you teach for more than 10 minutes - your student wont have to try to remember. She will KNOW the function just like she knows... well - I wont refrence the back seat like you did...
You said you teach "Survive" - Oh - now THATS what I have been missing! Your right... The whole self defense community missed that point... What a breakthrough. I have wasted every round fired up to this point. I am now enlightened!
Do you honestly expect me to believe this jibberish your gushing?
Stop clintoning the issue - I dont want to hear more smoke - EXPLAIN WHAT YOU TALKING ABOUT IN PLAIN ENGLISH. You can even use big words, since I am so ignorant - I opened my Dictionary file so I can follow along.
No Theories Please... I wanna hear STEP by STEP.
Also - 900+ videos? Maybe. But Video doesnt show everything. Your missing the most important part when your watching video - PERSPECTIVE. You are not seeing what the engaged people are seeing. Rent the movie STRANGE DAYS - When we can capture recordings as depicted in that film, THEN YOU GOT SOMETHING. You can get somethings outta video footage - but you absolutely can not base all your theories from video tape no matter how much video tape you have. You also need real world, real time experience. If you cant get that yourself you need to get that from those who have it. LISTEN to them and dont talk... just listen. Hear them. I say this because I think you have not "opened your ears" yet. Your saying "Use the Force" - Okay - Tell me How.
Gentlemen: You're beating up Pluspinc unfairly. He's already told us what he teaches (although indirectly, through the e-mail he quoted):
"Both arms locked out under the chin."
Ignore the buzzwords -- "survive", "simple", "theories", "science", "fright"-- and focus on the technique. Yes, I know, it's frustrating that he criticizes without offering alternatives, and I'm wondering how someone with such a low regard for "theories" can be so in love with "science", but ultimately we're all working towards the same goals. Let's avoid side issues like double-tapping and paper plates and work towards some common ground, OK?
"Both arms locked out under the chin."
Ignore the buzzwords -- "survive", "simple", "theories", "science", "fright"-- and focus on the technique. Yes, I know, it's frustrating that he criticizes without offering alternatives, and I'm wondering how someone with such a low regard for "theories" can be so in love with "science", but ultimately we're all working towards the same goals. Let's avoid side issues like double-tapping and paper plates and work towards some common ground, OK?
Read "Hit or Myth" by Louis Awerbuck. Part of the problem with missing is always shooting at flat one dimensional targets. Our opponents are 3D and moving to hurt us.
Mindset is also a problem. We generally "shoot the target." We should "fight the target."
Our knives, pistols, rifles merely extend the range of our fists (and provide greater power) during a fight. We still must use them to FIGHT (the sneakier and dirtier, the better).
I've trained with Awerbuck and he's a fighter, not a shooter. Gabe Suarez also seems to be a fighter, based on his writings.
And yes, you gotta think when you fight. It is possible, and imperative, in order to win.
Mindset is also a problem. We generally "shoot the target." We should "fight the target."
Our knives, pistols, rifles merely extend the range of our fists (and provide greater power) during a fight. We still must use them to FIGHT (the sneakier and dirtier, the better).
I've trained with Awerbuck and he's a fighter, not a shooter. Gabe Suarez also seems to be a fighter, based on his writings.
And yes, you gotta think when you fight. It is possible, and imperative, in order to win.
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
Yes - thats true Dave. But said trainer from South Africa also has students shoot at paper during traing... He does throw in some 3D stuff - which is good. But how much of his training is on those 3D targets? Less than 1/2?
"Arms locked out under chin." ?
What does that mean? Post the rest of that email - Let me read that in context.
I dont think I am being unfair - he is arguing with just about everything and I want some actual factual clarifications to his clintonized answers. I have not seen any real answers and if you got a email from him - I'ld be curious as to what he is talking about that his afraid to post here where it will be under scruitiny from those who have also Walked the Walk. Simple as that. Nothing more.
"Arms locked out under chin." ?
What does that mean? Post the rest of that email - Let me read that in context.
I dont think I am being unfair - he is arguing with just about everything and I want some actual factual clarifications to his clintonized answers. I have not seen any real answers and if you got a email from him - I'ld be curious as to what he is talking about that his afraid to post here where it will be under scruitiny from those who have also Walked the Walk. Simple as that. Nothing more.
Man you guys sure have a beef against pluspinc. His opinions are his, yours are yours. To paraphrase what Rich said that "it's not a cookbook, but a framework." The point is to constantly evolve and learn. There are a lot of different ways to skin a cat. Remember that pluspinc makes a living teaching what he teaches, so he's pretty attached to it.For some of you he is abrasive. So what? What it boils down to is that in a bad situation I would take pluspinc, or any of you guys who train regularly and understand armed personal conflict, to watch my back. Everyone needs to step back and take a deep breath, relax and see that we are all one beautiful gun toting family.
One comment on the great paper plate debate. I have used plates, just not exclusivly. I also make my own cardboard cutout humanoid figures. I take a magic marker and draw vital organs, central nervous system etc. Then I get some T-shirts and ski masks from the Salvation army ($.50 to $1.00 each) and cover everything up. It's different shooting at a target with clothing on. A little more human and no real aiming points. After the shooting, we lift up the shirt and WOW! Hey look at that, all COM, CNS hits, double tap or not. Say again that's only ONE way to train there should be a lot of others.
Does anyone use pepper poppers that you can calibrate for two hits, or for headshots only? Anybody use Tactical Ted?
One comment on the great paper plate debate. I have used plates, just not exclusivly. I also make my own cardboard cutout humanoid figures. I take a magic marker and draw vital organs, central nervous system etc. Then I get some T-shirts and ski masks from the Salvation army ($.50 to $1.00 each) and cover everything up. It's different shooting at a target with clothing on. A little more human and no real aiming points. After the shooting, we lift up the shirt and WOW! Hey look at that, all COM, CNS hits, double tap or not. Say again that's only ONE way to train there should be a lot of others.
Does anyone use pepper poppers that you can calibrate for two hits, or for headshots only? Anybody use Tactical Ted?
NO previous firearms experience and need about 10 minutes with her to allow her to
obtain a 95+% hit rate. "
Wow - thats pretty damn good. In fact - thats much better than my results when
teaching new shooters... Better than Most any other trainers as well. You must be a Jedi Master.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Jedi? Hardly. I don't teach the source of the universe. I teach SIMPLE. It seems a constant thread is that we need incredible skills to shoot someone. The thugs do well with a 91% HIT rate against cops based on DOJ study. We'd like to think we have special secrets to teach students so they can defend themselves and it must be formal and complex so it looks like we have knowledge they should pay for. Kinda like cooking. Would we pay to learn how to boil an egg? Shooting should not be complex.
I love those that think they have some control other the mental thought process when it comes to self-defense. That is true only to a point and then it switches to a total genetic response. I can quote chapter and verse from scientific sources but we don't like those. A gun magazine that supports OUR theory is much better.
To date NOBODY has found a scientific source to claim muscle memory reflex exists. There is a good reason for that. It doesn't. We must process mental information to shoot and we are highly limited in how much information we can process. And when in a state of fright that information process may even cease for some.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Your saying "Use the Force" - Okay - Tell me How.
****************
You are close in fact. We are BORN with the ability to shoot. We train out of it when it comes to self-defense. I have taken kids as young as 8 years old and had them shoot a handgun at a target 21 feet away. With NO training they can hit 50% or more of the time. Older shooters in one sampling we tried were NOT shown how to function a Model 10 .38 special. We stood there with them and told them to "shoot the target." NO instruction of ANY kind. We stood next to them for safety and had them fire 6 shots anyway they wanted. Many were very stressed and some moved into a fear mode and I felt some hit fright when the gun discharged.
The vast majority HIT the target. Some did 100% and repeated it and improved quality of hits if they continued shooting with NO instruction.
We also found smaller guns like a Makarov or 3 inch S&W Model 36 performed better than the Model 10. Here is something from TODAY'S news. I don't like ancient history.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
CHEHALIS, Wash. (AP) - A 5-year-old boy, apparently angry at some playmates, got his mother's gun, loaded it, pointed it at the two playmates and then fired into the ground, police said.
No one was injured in last week's incident. The boy was referred to a counselor but no charges were filed because the gun apparently had been stored properly - unloaded and on a high shelf, Chehalis Police Chief Randy Hamilton said.
The boy told police he knew how to load and fire the gun from watching television, Hamilton said.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now look at THAT. He's 5 years old and figured out how to load it and fired it with NO problems.Who was his teacher? Thunder Ranch? How many here would try to rush him and take it away? Boggles the mind.
Shooting is EASY, and that is what is hard for most to grasp. They key is what we do UP TO that moment. That is the hard part.
That 6 year old in Michigan found the gun and took it to school fully loaded including one in the chamber and didn't have an AD. Amazing. I have a case of a 9 year old SHOOTING a man attacking his mother. In Chicago a 92 year old woman shot and killed an attacker from her wheelchair. In PA a blind man shot a mugger on the street. How could they do it? Shooting is the easy part.
obtain a 95+% hit rate. "
Wow - thats pretty damn good. In fact - thats much better than my results when
teaching new shooters... Better than Most any other trainers as well. You must be a Jedi Master.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Jedi? Hardly. I don't teach the source of the universe. I teach SIMPLE. It seems a constant thread is that we need incredible skills to shoot someone. The thugs do well with a 91% HIT rate against cops based on DOJ study. We'd like to think we have special secrets to teach students so they can defend themselves and it must be formal and complex so it looks like we have knowledge they should pay for. Kinda like cooking. Would we pay to learn how to boil an egg? Shooting should not be complex.
I love those that think they have some control other the mental thought process when it comes to self-defense. That is true only to a point and then it switches to a total genetic response. I can quote chapter and verse from scientific sources but we don't like those. A gun magazine that supports OUR theory is much better.
To date NOBODY has found a scientific source to claim muscle memory reflex exists. There is a good reason for that. It doesn't. We must process mental information to shoot and we are highly limited in how much information we can process. And when in a state of fright that information process may even cease for some.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Your saying "Use the Force" - Okay - Tell me How.
****************
You are close in fact. We are BORN with the ability to shoot. We train out of it when it comes to self-defense. I have taken kids as young as 8 years old and had them shoot a handgun at a target 21 feet away. With NO training they can hit 50% or more of the time. Older shooters in one sampling we tried were NOT shown how to function a Model 10 .38 special. We stood there with them and told them to "shoot the target." NO instruction of ANY kind. We stood next to them for safety and had them fire 6 shots anyway they wanted. Many were very stressed and some moved into a fear mode and I felt some hit fright when the gun discharged.
The vast majority HIT the target. Some did 100% and repeated it and improved quality of hits if they continued shooting with NO instruction.
We also found smaller guns like a Makarov or 3 inch S&W Model 36 performed better than the Model 10. Here is something from TODAY'S news. I don't like ancient history.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
CHEHALIS, Wash. (AP) - A 5-year-old boy, apparently angry at some playmates, got his mother's gun, loaded it, pointed it at the two playmates and then fired into the ground, police said.
No one was injured in last week's incident. The boy was referred to a counselor but no charges were filed because the gun apparently had been stored properly - unloaded and on a high shelf, Chehalis Police Chief Randy Hamilton said.
The boy told police he knew how to load and fire the gun from watching television, Hamilton said.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now look at THAT. He's 5 years old and figured out how to load it and fired it with NO problems.Who was his teacher? Thunder Ranch? How many here would try to rush him and take it away? Boggles the mind.
Shooting is EASY, and that is what is hard for most to grasp. They key is what we do UP TO that moment. That is the hard part.
That 6 year old in Michigan found the gun and took it to school fully loaded including one in the chamber and didn't have an AD. Amazing. I have a case of a 9 year old SHOOTING a man attacking his mother. In Chicago a 92 year old woman shot and killed an attacker from her wheelchair. In PA a blind man shot a mugger on the street. How could they do it? Shooting is the easy part.
Nice comment WETSU.
Current training methods are not used in
actual encounters. I think that is what
this is about.
There may be exceptions, but none have
come to light.
Bad current training, training, training
may be the cause of the atrocious police
casualty rates.
Perhaps it is the current training
methods that are the theories. Under
the stronglight of videos, they can't
be seen.
There used to be people that thought
the earth was flat. It was not theory
to them either.
Current training may get you killed.
Current training is close to negligence
in teaching about the application of
deadly force.
If it works, how come it is not to be
found in the videos.
Must be smoke and mirrors stuff.
As a non shooter, I look at this issue
as what is best for me.
I am not married to any gun guru's
thinking.
I also have not seen in visits to most
all of the training sites, the details
of their shooting program. Trade secret
info when told to all is no longer a
trade secret.
I want to know what works for the
average bozo, and I would like to see
that verified on video not via words.
edited 8:56 am Pacific Time
[This message has been edited by okjoe at aol.com (edited March 03, 2000).]
Current training methods are not used in
actual encounters. I think that is what
this is about.
There may be exceptions, but none have
come to light.
Bad current training, training, training
may be the cause of the atrocious police
casualty rates.
Perhaps it is the current training
methods that are the theories. Under
the stronglight of videos, they can't
be seen.
There used to be people that thought
the earth was flat. It was not theory
to them either.
Current training may get you killed.
Current training is close to negligence
in teaching about the application of
deadly force.
If it works, how come it is not to be
found in the videos.
Must be smoke and mirrors stuff.
As a non shooter, I look at this issue
as what is best for me.
I am not married to any gun guru's
thinking.
I also have not seen in visits to most
all of the training sites, the details
of their shooting program. Trade secret
info when told to all is no longer a
trade secret.
I want to know what works for the
average bozo, and I would like to see
that verified on video not via words.
edited 8:56 am Pacific Time
[This message has been edited by okjoe at aol.com (edited March 03, 2000).]
Gabe Suarez
New member
OK, I stayed away as long as I could. As a professional trainer and operator, I've always tried to keep an open mind to other ideas. Some ideas are just not workable under the light of analysis. If we are right with our assumptions, we will win and live to tell about it. If we are wrong, we die...or our faithful students will die (all of mine, and Louis's and jeff's, and the others have won...so far).
Here's my take on some of them (and no I'm not picking on anyone,...even plusp).
The idea that man will turn into a bag of cats on the way to river when faced with the prospect of combat is new to our generation. Samurai, Vikings, Knights, Conquistadors, Confederate Raiders, and even some others more recent in our memory seem to have done pretty well. These guys trained, they didn't leave their destiny to the wind. Subsequently, they did very well in combat.
Fighting is just like any physical activity. You practice, you develop great skill, and make it reflexive. Then its up your heart and b-lls when the fight starts. If you don't have the latter, then don't bother even carrying a weapon.
Point Shooting? I want to win by design, not by default. I've written an extensive article in the NTOA magazine as well as in my newsletter (free for viewing on my site) refuting the idea of NOT using the sights. To say that I and my colleagues somehow imagined the whole thing so many times is ridiculous.
I know that some of the survivors DID NOT use their sights...I asked them in their hospital beds, and they had no reason to lie to me at that point.
Close Range and Low light? True. So tritium Sights and Flashlight Training is essential, as is low light tactics. This is a trend, not an absolute. Some have been at high noon in July as well.
Capacity Tap? Not wise. I teach a standard Two-Plus-One drill. Again, read the article Failure to Stop. I am not an advocate of shoot two and assess. Rather I train to shoot them to the ground, but in control, not as a berserker.
As trainers and as students of the art (whose theories and conclusions will be studied by the next generations) we need to begin with an assumption.
Do we assume that we as human beings are too cowardly to handle the stress of combat and act as we've programmed ourselves to act? Do we assume that we will turn into a bag of moldy excrement when we are threatened? If so, we need to stop wasting our time even reading about guns, and instead train to run like most grass-eaters run from their predators.
Or do we take the other side of the road and assume that humans can be trained to not only act as they've convinced themselves to act through mental exercise and "parctical" training, but also with a certain amount of grace? My studies of history's warriors, and my own experiences suggest the latter approach is a more worthy and likely goal. I want to win because I'm better, more capable of violence, and sharper than my enemy, not because he's worse than I am.
Plus is entitled to his opinions, and I certainly do not begrudge him his ideas, although I disagree with them. I would caution those who are contemplating the"cast your fate to the winds" approach that doctors are not the only ones who bury their mistakes.
Gabe Suarez
HALO Group http://www.thehalogroup.com http://www.gabesuarez.com
Here's my take on some of them (and no I'm not picking on anyone,...even plusp).
The idea that man will turn into a bag of cats on the way to river when faced with the prospect of combat is new to our generation. Samurai, Vikings, Knights, Conquistadors, Confederate Raiders, and even some others more recent in our memory seem to have done pretty well. These guys trained, they didn't leave their destiny to the wind. Subsequently, they did very well in combat.
Fighting is just like any physical activity. You practice, you develop great skill, and make it reflexive. Then its up your heart and b-lls when the fight starts. If you don't have the latter, then don't bother even carrying a weapon.
Point Shooting? I want to win by design, not by default. I've written an extensive article in the NTOA magazine as well as in my newsletter (free for viewing on my site) refuting the idea of NOT using the sights. To say that I and my colleagues somehow imagined the whole thing so many times is ridiculous.
I know that some of the survivors DID NOT use their sights...I asked them in their hospital beds, and they had no reason to lie to me at that point.
Close Range and Low light? True. So tritium Sights and Flashlight Training is essential, as is low light tactics. This is a trend, not an absolute. Some have been at high noon in July as well.
Capacity Tap? Not wise. I teach a standard Two-Plus-One drill. Again, read the article Failure to Stop. I am not an advocate of shoot two and assess. Rather I train to shoot them to the ground, but in control, not as a berserker.
As trainers and as students of the art (whose theories and conclusions will be studied by the next generations) we need to begin with an assumption.
Do we assume that we as human beings are too cowardly to handle the stress of combat and act as we've programmed ourselves to act? Do we assume that we will turn into a bag of moldy excrement when we are threatened? If so, we need to stop wasting our time even reading about guns, and instead train to run like most grass-eaters run from their predators.
Or do we take the other side of the road and assume that humans can be trained to not only act as they've convinced themselves to act through mental exercise and "parctical" training, but also with a certain amount of grace? My studies of history's warriors, and my own experiences suggest the latter approach is a more worthy and likely goal. I want to win because I'm better, more capable of violence, and sharper than my enemy, not because he's worse than I am.
Plus is entitled to his opinions, and I certainly do not begrudge him his ideas, although I disagree with them. I would caution those who are contemplating the"cast your fate to the winds" approach that doctors are not the only ones who bury their mistakes.
Gabe Suarez
HALO Group http://www.thehalogroup.com http://www.gabesuarez.com
Pluspinc: Your responses still seem off target. People are begging to know what you teach, and you just say "SIMPLE" and then give some examples of untrained people shooting. Should we conclude from this that you don't teach your students anything? Or is this some sort of Zen parable? 
> We are BORN with the ability to shoot.
If you define "shoot" as "hold a gun and pull the trigger", then I agree, but I don't see what the point is. Why shoot unless you can hit your target?
> Shooting is EASY, and that is what is hard for most to grasp.
Shooting POORLY is easy. What I, for one, have a hard time grasping is why you don't just state something like, "Training defensive shooters in traditional marksmanship techniques is a bad idea because they aren't needed at the close ranges of most gunfights and won't work anyway because frightened people are too focused on the threat to look at their sights".
> They key is what we do UP TO that moment. That is the hard part.
Which is... what? Picking up a handgun? That doesn't seem very hard.
> We are BORN with the ability to shoot.
If you define "shoot" as "hold a gun and pull the trigger", then I agree, but I don't see what the point is. Why shoot unless you can hit your target?
> Shooting is EASY, and that is what is hard for most to grasp.
Shooting POORLY is easy. What I, for one, have a hard time grasping is why you don't just state something like, "Training defensive shooters in traditional marksmanship techniques is a bad idea because they aren't needed at the close ranges of most gunfights and won't work anyway because frightened people are too focused on the threat to look at their sights".
> They key is what we do UP TO that moment. That is the hard part.
Which is... what? Picking up a handgun? That doesn't seem very hard.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Topic beaten like a red headed step child, over 140K and 50 posts. Feel free to start a Part 2.
All-
When a man claims to have the answer, you have a right to question his analysis and credentials. Please don't attack the man, however. There's a fine line there.
Rich Lucibella
All-
When a man claims to have the answer, you have a right to question his analysis and credentials. Please don't attack the man, however. There's a fine line there.
Rich Lucibella
- Status