IS TRAINING OF ANY USE?

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I dunno 'bout anyone else, but I don't think I want to use all my bullets on one BG. BG's are scavengers, and scavengers usually hunt in packs. pluspinc, for once I gotta disagree with you. Remind me not to be the innocent bystander downrange of your paranoic barrage of bullets zipping down the street. If you are so unsure of your skills as a Self Defender, then I dare say perhaps you need to return to the basics of training yourself, rather than slam any type of instruction system that does not strictly correspond with your obvious narrow point of view. By the way, as much as we would all like any training to be as realistic as possible, paper plates are cheaper and less hassle, litigation wise, than shooting real folks who might resemble Bad Guys, just for training purposes. Paper plates allow you to focus on the basics like "making every shot count" . Ever hear of that?

------------------
johnnyb
A slow hit beats a fast miss.
 
Lots of good THEORIES!!!


I am trying to understand the point of the original post - is the question regarding the
value of the Double Tap?
If it is - then pluspinc, I think you dont understand really what the Double Tap is.
To roll a long explanation into a nutshell - and Double Tap is a method of rapidly getting
2 hits into your target. Preferably close together.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Why two? Why not three? Why not four? WHO said two is enough? Will they guarantee that? I doubt it. It is just a "sounds good" theory with no realistic value. If we resort to our training and we needed three we get killed. See how that works, or do you have it BOTH ways? :-)

A paper plate makes a fine target to practice on as it is about the right size for COM
(Center Of Mass) hits in a regular sized persons chest. Hold one up to your chest and
see. Can you put to rapidly fired shots into there? If not - THATS whay you need TRAINING....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You mean you wont' take hits to any other place? Tough course! I don't think anyone can come forward and show the paper plate theory works or prove it. What's wrong with a typical normal combat target? Saving a few cents a target isn't very wise in my book. Also most center masses aren't pure white.
If times are tough can we use USED paper plates? A dime is a dime.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


If you were to "capacity tap" as you said - I doubt you or anyone would get all your hits
close together, let alone on the paper. Plate or otherwise. When you double tap, your
firing the second shot as fast as you can, hence double tap - your not firing a controlled pair... your shooting the 2nd shot as soon as the slide returns to battery and the trigger resets. Throw in a slight hesitation if your gun is pointed out of your target due to recoil, and fire once it comes back down. The ability to "capacity tap" would be the same to fire a Glock 18 at its maximum rate of fire for a full magazine - which yes, can be done... but quite frankly beyond the skill or desire to aquire the skill - or beyond the time to aquire
the skill to fire a fully automatic handgun. Dont try to teach a LEO that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
ANY person including a total novice can learn in a few minutes to empty a high cap gun at its limit to feed and be fired and IMPROVE accuracy. You are stuck in the old target shooting school. I will now attach a text from an email from a NY City cop who is in the training division and you can email me for his email address to tell him how wrong he is. You are in a past century on learning.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Email excerpt word for word.
Date Feb 26, 2000

" I had a chance to test your shooting technique with a couple of cops. They were having a hrd time qualifying. The two cops had shot the course twice and failed both times. I told the commander to give me 15 min. with them. I showed them the technique ane some of the things you showed me. After 15 minutes of instruction both of them passed with no problems. They couldn't believe how simple it was. The method that they had recieved before made shooting much to complicated. I reduced it down to the bare bones. It was amazing how well they did with a minimum amount of instruction. I wish they would let me teach this all the time."
>>>>>>>>>
Well? Try email from a short time before from same NYPD training officer.
" I did it just like you said. Both arms locked out under the chin. I was really impressed with the accuracy of this technique. I started out slow and then sped up as I went along. I was able to put all fifty rounds in an area the size of a paper plate. You were right, the faster I shot, the tighter the groups. So simple and yet so effective. I think I could take a recruit and using your method make him very deadly in about one hour."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Gosh I'm blushing and I can back this up. I do it several times a week. So when you say don't show it to a LEO, I just did and it worked for the instructor and difficult students and may be in front of thousands of their cops shortly. IT WORKS! Nothing magic, nothing new, nothing trendy or buzzwords or cliches. SIMPLE. Keep that word in mind.


within its tactical envelope.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"tacticle envelope? WOW, now there is a buzzword. I'll put that on my long list.


People who should know how and when to use
the double tap are folk in Law Enforcement, Military, or Self Defenders. They should also
know when not to use the mighty DT.Are these things you teach at your school?
Perhaps you should take a class at a school that does... Say - Thunder Ranch for example.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Well as for Thunder Ranch, I already have a pass to Disneyworld. Better food also.
I don't teach anyone that there is a LIMIT to how many you shoot. Like telling your teenager when he gets sweetie pie in the back seat to use only two strokes. Nice theory.

I tell you what - next time your out west, around Utah, I'ld be happy to share some
range time with you and teach you the Do's and Dont's of the DT. We'll use a regular
target so the Paper Plates dont threaten you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I would insist that it be in near total darkness and I would have to use a female under age 21 with NO previous firearms experience and need about 10 minutes with her to allow her to obtain a 95+% hit rate. In fact I did that for an article in Police Marksman several years ago. Put her up against a Gargoyle wearing, buzzcut type from a local PD. I can't use their range anymore. Guess why?
 
Someone already said it here" Perfect training makes perfect". Take it one step further: Perfect training, often.

Training by my definition encompasses a vast territory. Your brain is your best weapon. How many shooters engage it tactically even when they're not shooting or carrying? I try, but rarely am totally successful. Developing the constant environmental awareness and mindset that allows you to unconsciously and/or automatically avoid precarious situations, evaluate threat/risk levels, anticipate problems and encounters and formulate a response before its needed, gives one a huge advantage over the average stiff, imo. That, and your pistol, pepper spray, and cell phone. You can do this just walking around or in your car..

How many different scenarios can one prepare for? Less than the infinite number you might potentially encounter, imo. Simple things are what seems to me make all the difference. Things like: practicing failure drills- tap, rack, BANG!, moving to cover, draws from concealment, speed reloads from slide lock or not, scanning your field of view in an engagement or in anticipation (to counter tunnel vision), carrying in the same place on your person, choosing a weapon type or two and becoming one with them. Simple things that can make a huge difference under stress, when your autopilot kicks in.

I agree with those here that say you shoot until the threat is neutralized. Maybe 1+1 or 2+1 per target, then evaluate. Don't run the gun dry until you know you don't need those rounds for multiple BG's.

And use your sights, nearly always. If you practice, it's astonishing how fast you can acquire an accurate (enough) flash sight picture at close range (not that I can do it all the time!). I want to know where my rounds are going. In an IDPA match last weekend, we had a stage where you had to advance from the 20 yd line at a rack of 6 steel plates, shooting on the move. I hit plate 3, and then plate 4 with a split of about .3 seconds, using sights. I don't even remember acquiring a sight picture...my subconscious mind must have seen it. It was so fast that it actually shocked me to hit the plate and caused me to hesitate slightly on my next plate. Now, if I couldn't only train myself to just go on hyper-autodrive all the time. ;)

It's a sad reality that most people who have a gun for defense, even cops, don't practice/train nearly as they should. I would guess that 90% of the active pistol shooters on this board are more proficient than 95% of all pistol owners.

imho

[This message has been edited by Covert Mission (edited March 02, 2000).]
 
"Been there, done that, and the most vivid thing I remember about those two incidents were my SIGHTS and where they were oriented on the BG. (ps does have its place, but I TRAINED to use my sights, and you know what? I USED them.)"

But, you see tobeat1, Pluspinc has that covered. He will tell you that you are suffering from false memory syndrome and that you think you used your sights, but you really did not. This is his convenient way to dismiss any shooting incidents that do not fall into his set of theories on how they should happen.
He has "reviewed over 900" videos of poorly trained Police Officers who never practice, and many of them do not use their sights, so that means that no one else ever will!!! (according to him).
I have seen his website and I don't know how he can determine that someone wearing MIRRORED SUNGLASSES is not using their sights, but he can and does claim this ability to know what they are looking at even when you can't see their eyes.
For the officers in his videos that ARE in a perfect modified weaver stance and shooting properly (he will tell you himself that there are some), he calls them "flukes" and "anomalies" (it could not just be that they are the few that PRACTICE, so that is why they are doing it right, could it???).

You see, Pluspinc makes the one fatal error of all pseudo-scientists who think they have it all figured out: He sees his research through biased lenses. IF SOMETHING DOES NOT FIT INTO HIS PREDETERMINED SET OF THEORIES, HE DISMISSES IT. He has convenient scapegoats to accomplish this goal, like "false memory syndrome". If you recall something different in a shooting than what he says should happen, then he says that you are remembering poorly.
Of course, if you remember something that supports his theories, then he is okay with that.
On his videos, when he sees a poor shooter perform poorly like he claims they will, then he focuses on it, but when a good shooter performs like they are suppsed to, then he dismisses it as a fluke.
This is not science. He has a theory and seeks to prove it, discarding any data that would counter that claim.


I have been there done that (BTDT) too, and I have tried to tell pluspinc that my shooting incident was nothing like he wants to tell me it should be, but he could care less for our experiences, he has his videos and his poorly applied statistics. As you can see, we have heard all his arguments before and he cares none to hear any one else's side of the issue, even if they have BTDT.


Someone summed it up perfectly before: Pluspinc wants to take grade "F" shooters and take them up to a "C-" level. That is fine. But, other instructors want to take "C+" shooters and bring them up to an "A+".
If you are a beginner and want to learn to spray and pray at close range (you have to PAY an instructor to teach you that???), then go to Pluspinc and he will tell you all about how his "research" shows that this is all you need to know and you will be able to pull the trigger as fast as you can and hit a person at 5 feet and hope to god you don't hit anyone else (mind you, this is at a range, I wonder if someone can do that so well in combat).
Now, if you want to learn to be a good shooter, and use your sights, and double tap, then get a hold of your sights again and double tap again, making all shots count, then you go to a real instructor who will tell you how to be an A+ shooter. To each his own.
Until I see videos of well trained, well practiced shooters REGULARLY (not just one or two) botching there skills during a shooting incident, then I am convinced that Pluspinc has gathered 900 videos of piss poor shooters giving piss poor performance on the street because they are...piss poor shooters. From this he has determined that we all will perform this poorly. Of the few people that ARE good shooters in his videos and DO perform like they TRAIN, then he dismisses them as a fluke.



[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited March 02, 2000).]
 
We're obviously gonna hafta push for legislation that requires BG's to wear a paper plate, fully exposed, front & back. :)

>>Why two? Why not three? Why not four? WHO said two is enough?<<
Seriously, statistics are where we get the effectiveness figures for the handgun rounds that we use. NONE are 100% effective at stopping a human threat, though many are close. The "Double Tap" (if placed properly) increases the odds of stopping your apponent (provided he's not wearing armour, in which case a "capacity tap" would leave you scratching your head with an empty gun, milliseconds before dying))to well OVER 100%, with minimum risk of stray rounds collecting up innocent bystanders, or being charged with eccessive use of force. More rounds are right at your fingertip, if needed.

>>>ANY person including a total novice can learn in a few minutes to empty a high cap gun at its limit to feed and be fired and IMPROVE accuracy.<<<
WOW. We'd really like to believe you, Darrel. I've GOT a few minutes, I'm sure others do to. Enlighten us, please. I'm not sure what part of "simple" I don't understand.

>>>I can't use their range anymore. Guess why?<<<
It wouldn't have anything to do with arrogance, would it? :D

------------------
The Bible is my lawbook. I turn the other cheek when applicable, and spend the rest of my days resisting evil at every front, until I have breathed my last breath.
 
Pluspinc,
I have always tended to share alot of the same views, although I think we may differ somewhat here. I think that different situatioins call for different tschniqes. I could see where tapping to capacity would be preffered in a case where say, your currnt girlfriends raging ex comes out of nowhere running at you with a butcher knife in his hand. On the other hand, I think immediately seeking cover, and putting a round or two in a guy who is shooting at you from 10 yards away, then after he is at least disabled if in fact he is, you make a gettaway.
Before people start talking about stats on most assaults occuring at 5 yard and less etc, let me say that I have had guns pointed at me twice in my life. Once from point-blank, and once from about 10 yards away. In both cases, there was more than one person coming at me, ( No, I won't go into specific details of the events) At any rate, Had I used the tap untill capacity in the latter, I would well have been dead quite possibly.
I do try double taps in training usually when practicing engaging multiple targets. Because 2 is better than one and more may increase my chances of getting hit by another assailant if time is an issue. I wanna get a shot or 2 into the BG and get to cover as quick as possible if I hadn't been able to previously do so.
I don't believe in double tapping and stopping by any means however, I just feel that you need a variety of different styles.

------------------
"what gives a government that arms the whole world the right to disarm it's own citizens?"
 
I am not defending Plusp, but 900 + videos
can't be wrong.

If people used sights in gunfights, it would
show up on some of the tapes. I am sure
there are exceptions, but none have been
seen by me on any of the tapes I have seen.
I have recorded lots of them, and then
played them back frame by frame.

I don't think double tapping is good. How
about stupid. You shoot and as the gun is
bucking or just about stopped moving,
you shoot again. If the muzzle is off from
the exact center of the target by 3/8's of
an inch at 15 feet, you miss. If it is off
1/4 of an inch from the exact center at 25
feet you miss.

Beyond that range, don't shoot. Since you
won't be using your sights per the films,
how will you hit the target?

The simple shooting which PlusP proposes,
and P&S which worked for me, is not taught
or tested on. It is inappropriate.


What is appropriate is, using the current
shooting methods which have resulted in a
dead cop about every seven days for the past
ten years, and thousands and thousand of
cops being shot and wounded. What is
appropriate is that you can look forward to
that for the next ten years unless things
change.

The human costs in terms of lives lost,
careers ruined, regrets by those who have
been there and wish that they could have
done more, etc.. are not measured.

What is measured is dollar costs. Justice
studies show that: millions and millions of
tax dollars have gone down the drain in
replacement costs, widows and kids pensions,
medical costs, and court costs. You can
look forward to that waste continuing.

The louder youse try to shut him up or shout
him down, the righter PlusP seems to be to
me.

Some trainer types have said my P&S is just
plain bs.

Well it's very very very easy to try. Its a
no brainer.

Got the guts to try it?

That is not said lightly, because when you
find that it works, and with little if any
training, what will you do next?'

Here's how:

Put your index finger along side the gun
point your finger at a target, and pull the
trigger with your middle or left index
finger. That's it.

Works good for most guns except the 1911.
For a list of guns tested with it that was
developed at the Vermont Police Academy
visit my site: http://members.aol.com/okjoe/ps.htm

edited 5:37 Pacific Time
 
With all due respect to all posters-

I don't understand why there is so much implied hostility toward plusp from many posts (is there history here?). If he has a school he must know something about training. If he has 900 videos of incidents, then certainly he must have some interesting data.
If I understand his points:
1. training per se does not help that much unless it is very realistic
2. double tapping is a bad real life practice
3. most people become very limited in their perceptions and capabilities when in a mortal danger incident (on that point there seems to be quite a bit of evidence recently developed, btw- mckysdad's note)

It seems to me that these are interesting points and worth a discussion- whether or not we agree with him. Why is it that this thread is so aggressive and veering towards the personal?

Hope nobody takes this as a flame - I think TFL is great because there is so much reasonableness and so little flaming.
 
Sigh-
PlusP-
Not to be argumentative but what's your point? You ask a question in the title and answer it in the first post. This might have been better accomplished by emailing those of us receptive to the approach...a short list, I suspect.

The key to training is to expose the student to a number of different scenarios (internal and external to the student's control) in order to build confidence, reflex and tactics. You seem to be able to offer your students better training in a fraction of the time of the others. However, I base this only on your innuendo, not on your explanations (as there have been none here).

I'm quite serious in my confusion about your point. I know of no respected firearms training course that teaches the "double tap and holster" technique. In fact, I know of none that allows for a "bad guy down" with every double to the body. I have seen two to the body, one to the brain or other target...hits, not attempts. I have seen room in such courses for the student to determine whether "two" becomes "one", "three" or "seven", depending upon mood, circumstance, menstrual cycle, etc. While such trainers may teach an "assess" after the first two for liability reasons, any student worth his weight in salt knows that you keep shooting as long as there is a non-surrendered target. (The shooter gets to define "surrender").

So, while your students would appear to be perfectly pouring lead into the boilermaker of a body armored perp (while taking hits in return), those trained at other schools might well have taken care of business with a head, pelvic or Isle of Langerhans shot. ;) Training in firearms, as in anything else, is not meant to provide a cookbok, but a framework. If the student is incapable of building on that, he should seek out an alternative endeavor.

I watch you misinterpret and criticize training from all sources other than your own and have yet to see you offer something positive in their place. I don't doubt your expertise. I just think I have a right to *understand* it. And so I ask the questions a second time:

Kindly provide a list of the training you've done with such notables as Walt Marshall, Harry Humphries, Jeff Cooper, Gabe Suarez, Clint Smith, Randy Cain, Louie Awerbuck, Ray Chapman and others. At least then, we might understand where they have wronged you or, at the least, that you understand what it is they teach. As an alternative, kindly provide a summary of the real world experience that would grant you the right to denounce them, unknown.

Kindly tell us what it is that you teach, as opposed to what you don't teach. I well understand what you don't teach. It's the other part that I'm haveing a bit of trouble with. It appears to be rather Existential.....and I daresay, even I would have beaten Sartre in a gunfight ;)
Rich Lucibella
 
re "It appears to be rather Existential.....and I daresay, even I would have beaten Sartre in a gunfight"

ROTFLMAO!!! :) ;) :) ;) Very dang funny, Rich


I read somewhere (on PlusP's website?) that Sartre had a ccw. Did you? ;)
 
Who here has shot someone while using there sights? What sort of stance did you use while shooting this peron(s)? How many times did you shoot this person(s)?
 
6-
Good point. Similar to the following:
Who here has shot someone while not looking at their sights?...etc, etc.

Ask a trained martial artist where his feet were planted when he warded off an attack....bet he can't say. Shall we conclude that his years of training were of no use?

Was he trained to watch the eyes of his opponent? Ask him what he saw during the fight. If it wasn't the eyes, his training was for naught?

I think the question on the floor goes something like this: "Is training of any use". That was, I believe, the topic of this discussion.

Perhaps we might branch off into an alternative thread entitled "Does Ape **** Shooting Beat Training" or "Why Can't a Defender 'Just Do It'?". At least then we'd know where everyone is coming from. :)
Rich
 
Yup, all a lot of good theories. What do I teach? SURVIVE? Do it as SIMPLE as you can. Sights in the dark? Look at a gun and not the threat? C'mon folks. What movie are you going to make? All the "theories" proposed such as malfunction "drills" (fail to say what the bad guy will do while you try to remember the list) require a LOT of memory processing. No, MMR does not exist and nobody has posted one medical/scientific source yet to say it does (Guns & Ammo doesn't count) and all the other stuff.
I just got off the phone with a major PD in Texas who is providing me with more videos of actual shootings. They went over their collection and came to pretty much the same conclusions we have.
Also everyone comes after me and didn't say a word about the NYPD training officer and his observations. I have more from him if you want it.
With the abhorant miss rate by any measures you'd think someone would figure out something is wrong, but it sounds like folks feel they want to increase the training that we do that produced that miss rate. Excuses Excuses Excuses. How could I do worse than 90+% miss rate?
YOU shoot twice. I'll keep shooting until I feel comfortable and safe. There is NO limit.
And if you think you can apply COMPLEX information processing, science has news for you.
 
PlusP-
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What do I teach? SURVIVE?[/quote]
Well now, that's elucidating. Thanks for the nonreply. I had hoped for better, though I hadn't expected more.

No one's mentioned a "theory" here....though you continue to create them in order to debunk them. You're against malf drills which are as simple to ingrain as reloads? OK. What's your alternative?....NO training?

Miss rates? That's a factor of the human condition. It's the reason we train, not the excuse we use to avoid training. What are the miss rates of your students? What's your miss rate been? Mine was 100% hits before training, which proves that small samples prove nothing.

Who ever said "Shoot Twice and Stop" as your post would indicate?

Honestly, we keep giving you the benefit of the doubt and continue to be disappointed by the result. By your own logic, I've seen more than 2,000 Prime Time movies. Does that qualify me to appoint myself a Hollywood Director?
Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited March 03, 2000).]
 
I have been in a couple of OIS's. On one I used the front sight to deliver a long range dump, on the other I used a CQB technique that I modified from one taught to me by a Delta operator. Both were at night, and my flashlight came into play in both. I have four officers that I have trained who have gone to the head on purpose (2 were failure drills, and two were hostage shots). All were successful and all were using their sights as taught. Almost everything I teach coincides directly with Gabe Suarez, and I have met him once at a show for about 30 seconds-yet we have found the exact same thing and had very similar experiences in NON THEORY real life shootings in SoCal. Try having pluspinc contend with the likes of Larry Mudgett at LAPD, and he'll also be met with the same thing. I don't think we have to train to some low end standard, its a cop out. I have worked to hard to bring professional training to everymember of my agency, and it is working.

------------------
 
Ok, mkysdad asked a valid question, and I was all set to email him the answer, privately. However, since there maybe others present who share the confusion, I'll just post it here instead:

REPLY:

Yes, there is history here. This guy showed up out of nowhere, and immediately began to discredit and belittle some of the most experienced and respected members of TFL. He has also discouraged many new members to the forums with his arrogance, who refuse to return. He has, not even once, offered any positive suggestions. I, like many others, chose to ignore him for some time, but the personal attacks could not go unanswered forever. True, I was one of the first to question some of his reasoning (or lack thereof), along with a few others. There are about a half dozen of us that regularly come under his unprovolked attack, and now routinely defend ourselves and our beliefs. (Somebody has to do it, or the new members, who are new to the firearms world, might think that he's worth listening to.) Several of the Moderators have began to do the same, as they too have just about had it with his nonsense. If you'll return to the thread, you'll see that our Administrators (the guys that fork out several thousand dollars a year and work their butts off to keep the site running) are just about to lose their patience with the babbling (OK, Rich, I'll be nice). On the rare occasion that he makes a post that is not condecending, I make a point of responding positively, as though there is no animosity....which there really isn't. Just because someone's opinions unjustifiably shred my own does not provolk me to treat them with any less respect than I would afford just about any human being. Getting tired of wishing the same from him.

Take a look at [Link to invalid post]



[This message has been edited by fastforty (edited March 03, 2000).]
 
re: "All the "theories" proposed such as malfunction "drills" (fail to say what the bad guy will do while you try to remember the list) require a LOT of memory processing."

Absolutely not true. It's just NOT that complicated. I practice malfunction drills (as taught in a Gabe Suarez class), and if you are diligent in practicing, it becomes automatic.I have had jams during matches, even self-induced ones (for practice) and have cleared them quickly, behind cover. Tap Rack BANG. Gabe himself practices it and dry fire work 1/2 hr daily.

I don't have 900 police videos (does watching the Fox channel count?). I can tell you what the bad guy WILL do when your gun has a stovepipe jam, you don't realize it and by the time you do, you're baffled as to how to clear it quickly because you never practiced. He will shoot you. You'd better have a 2md gun for that "NY Reload".

[This message has been edited by Covert Mission (edited March 03, 2000).]
 
nyeti:

You may be way beyond this level (sounds like it), but Gabe S. is having a one day class here in SoCal, on March 25. May be full, but you could e-mail him thru the HALO website www.thehalogroup.com which also has their sked. He is also doing a 2 day intermed/adv class in Vegas, April 8-9 i think. E-mail me and I can fwd the info on that. All the classes, both at their main facility and off-site, are on their website. Cheers
 
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