IS TRAINING OF ANY USE?

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pluspinc

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Yes, but double tapping paper plates at 7 yards isn't it. I never faced a raging paper plate and why two shots? Is there a limit?
Me thinks it is not a sporting event and I wouldn't ever limit myself like that unless I wanted the wife to enjoy my retirement money with someone else. Why not capacity tap or close to it?
You shoot until the threat is gone unless you want to make a fashion statement.
 
Training in and of itself isn't the whole picture. Mindset and aggressiveness in any kind of violent encounter will probably do more to determine the outcome than whether you can clear leather in .3 seconds.

Strike first, strike hard. Bigger bullets make bigger holes, and that's a good thing (my Martha Stewart take-off). Remember the basics and don't forget to shoot until the mag is empty or perp is horizontal.
 
Square range drills are excellent for developing and maintaining basics. Just remember your follow through and practice failure drills. I don't necessarily like shoot until empty mentality as it reinforces the physiological effect of tunnel vision. Shoot twice at center, follow through to head. If it is not there, that means you didn't need the failure drill. Proceed immediately to after action drill (quick check + scan).

In addition to range drills, I highly recommend visiting a simulator and doing some force on force/Simunition scenarios. It can really give you a new perspective on your training.

Tim
http://www.streetpro.com
Street Smart Professional Equipment
 
PlusP,
Isn't every one of the pictures and the video on your website a "one time" incident?
Well, I guess I'll just have to abandon all training exercises and start picking some gunfights. :) Oh, I better call the military and tell them to knock off all those costly exercises. If they want to practice fighting, they'll just have to start a war. You can't continuosly denigrate training exercises without offering a clearly superior alternative.
 
PlusP-
You've asked a question in the title and answered it in the body. I know there's a point in here somewhere....perhaps this bears greater reflection on my part. ;)

However, since "double tap" is a term (from a generation ago) reserved for handguns, this topic is hereby moved from General to Handgun Forum.
Rich Lucibella
 
Get Col. Rex Applegates video "Shooting for Keeps". Start there.

Then read all of Jim Cerrillo's stories.

Watch the move "American Me".

Take some serious martial arts classes, include Aikido, and street fighting.

Learn how gang punks really "do it".

Then go take shooting classes.

Then take ONE person and go out in the woods or desert where NOBODY is around, take rifle, shotgun, and pistol, and ALOT of ammo, plywood to hold up targets... and use your imagination as vivid as you can, set up your own "senarios", multiple targets, multiple distances, 1 foot to 100 yds... let your "enemy" have cover... be as real as you can... get back in the car... back up down the dirt road... put your seatbelts ON... then drive into your "impossible to get out of ambush"...and practice, practice, practice...

This still isnt the same as the "real thing", but, it is a start. Dont just learn one way, learn a thousand, then keep studing....

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Reality ALWAYS takes precedence.
 
PlusP, since you operate a school, I guess it's safe to assume that you think YOUR training is useful :)

Since the vast majority of us will never make it to Minnesota, why not lay out what you think a basic self-defense course should cover?
 
Our focus is to REDUCE the information needed to process from the start. Handing someone a massive menu of buzzwords and cliche's to try and process when frightened to death isn't very smart. Self-defenese isn't that complicated anyway. Amazing how hard it is to explain SIMPLE.
Training works if it is so simple you can process the information in a state of fright and that isn't much.
You won't be able to count for example. Simple science. Problem is most can't sell simple at a big price.
Sometimes less is better. REALISTIC self defense is short range in low light or darkness. It is seldom much more.
 
IMHO, a better question would be is how much use instruction is.

I've had little formal instruction. I've shot with people that have had anywhere from no formal instruction, to a great deal. It makes all the difference in the world. Kind of a take on the perfect practice makes perfect theme.

[This message has been edited by RAE (edited March 02, 2000).]
 
I am trying to understand the point of the original post - is the question regarding the value of the Double Tap?
If it is - then pluspinc, I think you dont understand really what the Double Tap is.
To roll a long explanation into a nutshell - and Double Tap is a method of rapidly getting 2 hits into your target. Preferably close together.
A paper plate makes a fine target to practice on as it is about the right size for COM (Center Of Mass) hits in a regular sized persons chest. Hold one up to your chest and see. Can you put to rapidly fired shots into there? If not - THATS whay you need TRAINING....
If you were to "capacity tap" as you said - I doubt you or anyone would get all your hits close together, let alone on the paper. Plate or otherwise. When you double tap, your firing the second shot as fast as you can, hence double tap - your not firing a controlled pair... your shooting the 2nd shot as soon as the slide returns to battery and the trigger resets. Throw in a slight hesitation if your gun is pointed out of your target due to recoil, and fire once it comes back down. The ability to "capacity tap" would be the same to fire a Glock 18 at its maximum rate of fire for a full magazine - which yes, can be done... but quite frankly beyond the skill or desire to aquire the skill - or beyond the time to aquire the skill to fire a fully automatic handgun. Dont try to teach a LEO that.
Double tapping has its value. To end a situation fast, a double tap has its good points. It is effecting within its tactical envelope. People who should know how and when to use the double tap are folk in Law Enforcement, Military, or Self Defenders. They should also know when not to use the mighty DT.
Are these things you teach at your school?
Perhaps you should take a class at a school that does... Say - Thunder Ranch for example.
I tell you what - next time your out west, around Utah, I'ld be happy to share some range time with you and teach you the Do's and Dont's of the DT. We'll use a regular target so the Paper Plates dont threaten you.
 
I agree somewhat with pluspinc, as well as the others. The important thing to remember is to train often, train WELL (smart) and train hard. I've had little formal class room training but I've learned from some good shooters and developed good habits over the years. I constantly try for improvement.
Recently I posted on a board telling of my doing a multi person, jungle lane type shoot using both rifle and sidearm, with other team members.There were all kinds of targets (shoot and no shoot etc) mixed together. Lots of difficult angles. What was different about this time was that about 20 minutes prior to shooting I suffered second degree burns to both of my hands. It was exquisitly painful. All my fingers blew up to twice their normal size. I had huge blisters the size of silver dollars on my palms. Rather than cancel the training session I used it to ratchet up the stress. The result? Nothing short of outstanding. I'm not bragging. I consider myself a robot on this one. I was so out of it with pain that I went into autopilot mode. The point of my rambling is this: When you train hard, and regularly, using any number of proven techniques, you will start to develop an automatic response to the situation and hopefully you will carry the day, and when it's all over wonder, "how did I do that?"
I can't stress it enough Train, train train!!
 
So, "REALISTIC self defense is short range in low light or darkness. It is seldom much more."?

Well then, the next time I want to hone my defensive shooting skills, I'll take my gunbox down to the range, run a bullseye target out to five feet, turn down the lights, and shoot a national match course with my S&W M41. Goblins beware! :D
 
For once I will have to agree with the illustrious PlusP. If in a life-threatening situation, open fire at COM and do not stop until one of two things happen.

1. The aggressive threatening actions stop (the VTA is on the ground, or drops his weapon, or turns away and flees); OR
2. Out of ammo, in which case reload and resume from the top.
 
Current shooting methods that are taught
that require one to use the sights in
one way or another in cq shooting, ARE NOT
used in in cq situations. That's a fact.
Ask Darrell.

Continuing to teach them is akin to
negligence or worse.

I am a proponent of P&S. It is a no brainer.

As far as shooting multiple times as fast
as one can (more than one DT but fast),
I had not shot a gun in over 40 years
when I made a test using what I call a P&S
index finger rest. With it I was able to
hit a 11x17 inch target at 25 feet 6 out of 7
times shooting continuously. I just kept pointing
at the target and pulling the trigger.

The target was not shooting at me or moving,
but given the accuracy rate of less than 20
percent that is now the case using the point
and blast away method, I would be courting
suicide to not use P&S if I was in a life
and death cq situation, had a gun and had no
way out of it. It's a no brainer.

PS Which site is it that has the free pic
of Ruby killing Oswald using the P&S method?

It does work in cq situations.

[This message has been edited by okjoe at aol.com (edited March 02, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by okjoe at aol.com (edited March 02, 2000).]
 
Hi, guys,

There is nothing wrong with double tap in itself to get off two quick first shots. The problem has been that too many folks trained to DT fire two rounds and STOP. Never mind that both shots missed or didn't put the BG down. Never mind that the BG is now aiming at your head. Your "muscle memory" said to do a DT and you did.

I believe training is very useful. Otherwise, the NFL is paying a bunch of guys big bucks from April to September for nothing.

But I believe there is such a thing as overtraining, especially where concentrating on one and only one aspect of shooting.

Worst case - In the revolver days, one police instructor insisted that the trainees eject the empty brass into their off hand and deposit it in the brass can. The department reloaded and the practice also kept the range neat so the range officer didn't have to sweep up. On duty, one of his pupils fired six rounds, then died with his brass in his hand and looking around for the brass can.

Jim
 
Two of the officers in the Diallo case "capacity tapped." Look where it got them. The case arguably would not have gained national prominence if only eight shots were fired.

Erik
 
apparently there is a school that allows you to shoot at creck-fed mutant bikers who want to kill you in the dark??

Seriously there are some methods of training that are better than others. Being good 'off the bench" has little to do with shooting in the woods.

By the same token I have to admit I had shot a LOT before I tried my first IDPA course , but wow did I make errors. A Lot of them. Not in safety, but tacticly... in trying to count rounds.. putting the safty on to run to the next barricade.. (well i had always done that.. I'd do it with a rifle.. etc.) Had another stage where i was CONVINCED my gun had jammed (it didn't).

So I am only convinced of one thing.. training NEVER stops. No matter how old you are or how much you've been there or done that.

Dr.Rob
 
Dr. Rob. Amen brother. And to Jim Keenan, ditto. I too think you can train too much on one narrow aspect of shooting. That's why as soon as me or a team member gets in the groove during training it's time to mix it up. I have a team member who HATES revolvers. Well, of course, once he starts really slammin' with his G21 I tell him he has to use a snubbie! He groans, but after the first string of targets, he's shooting like he does with his Glock. This from a gun he may not have EVER held before! During handgun training I've introduced snubbies, a PPK, S&W 65, a Webley, an RG 23, Astra 400, MAB D, Tokarev, etc. I figure learn to shoot well, and you will shoot ANY gun well enough to survive a fight. You won't win a IDPA match, but you will outshoot the only opponent that matters-the one shooting back! Just my $.02
 
Folks, I had to throw in my 2 cents worth regarding double tapping etc. Let me start off by saying that I've never taken a civilian shooting course from any school since the Army keeps me too busy on TDY and other stuff to let me go to Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, etc. So all of my shooting knowledge and experience comes from the various MILITARY courses that I've been through and set up myself when my cdr would give us ammo.

Keeping in mind that double tapping is not officially recomended outside of the SOCOM community in my experience. I've always subscribed to the belief that double tapping was used to stop an attacker momentarily/permanatly and to allow time for a better aimed shot. The theory being that if 2 rounds to COM doesn't stop the BG, especially if he/she is wearing body armor they will at least stop/stagger them momentarily putting them off balance, allowing you to take that well aimed shot to the head or pelvis which "should" put them out of comission. I've seen various names for this technique in gun mags etc so I'll let you decide what to call it.

George gives a perfect example when he says that a paper plate approximates COM.

I'm not a big fan of the so called capacity tap since I've almost never been engaged by a single threat, whether in a CQB or other environment. Be prepared for multiple threats and train for it and IMHO you'll be better able to engage a single threat. That's why I preach against tunnel vision to my soldiers.

Training, more training and more realistic training.

Of course the above is only my opinion and should not be considered a flame.


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Walk softly and carry a big stick (Yeah I know I stole it)
 
Hey Plusp and okjoe, I happen to aggree with shooting until the threat is gone, BUT I do not agree with your opinion that the sights are impossible to use in a cq situation. Been there, done that, and the most vivid thing I remember about those two incidents were my SIGHTS and where they were oriented on the BG. (ps does have its place, but I TRAINED to use my sights, and you know what? I USED them.)

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"peace, love, joy, and happiness..."



[This message has been edited by tobeat1 (edited March 02, 2000).]
 
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