Is this way out of line for a Gun Show or am I prude?

It's one thing to display the regalia of a defeated enemy as a means of showing one's feat of arms and prowess on the battlefield. The tradition goes back to ancient times and victorious Greeks would erect a "trophy" at the conclusion of a battle. Along this line, I believe ownership or display of regalia is in good taste. Seeing trophys displayed by our Vets makes me swell with grateful pride.

However, it is quite another thing altogether to adopt the regalia of a defeated enemy as symbolic of one's own beliefs and values. This is particularly true of Nazi artifacts. It mocks our troops fought, bled, died to wage a victorious war against this political philosophy with its distorted perspective of mankind, perverted science and genocidal ways. Certainly the Germans had some admirable fighting qualities and equipment, and not all Germans of that era should be condemned as Nazis as there were plenty of anti-Nazis Germans in camps, but one should not confuse admiration of fighting skills and equipment with the philosophy, leaders and supporters of National Socialism.
 
I have no problem with individuals protesting porn or Nazi stuff at tables to a gun show promoter. We have every right to protest, and band together to pressure the promoter.

I have huge problems with government doing this, or people pressuring government to do this.
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JimR,

Right on the money! The government would make it a "Felony"... :rolleyes:

Oleg,

In relation to what Jim said, I have to tell you that pornography, banned or not, like alcohol and drugs, is addictive.

There are those with enough sense to realize their weakness for it and stay away from it, those who will realize their weakness for it and indulge anyway, and those who will remain forever locked in it's deceptive grip and wonder why.
 
One possible solution

SodaPop,
Check with the local DA's office and see if there are any laws on the books about WHERE pornography can be sold. A lot of towns restrict it to what used to be called 'The Redlight' district. If your area has laws, I'll bet dollars to donuts that this guy is breaking the law. And I would be surprised if he lives in your community, he probably WON'T know he's breaking the law. With a printed copy of the statute that his guy is breaking in hand, you could take hold of any LEO at show (they are ALWAYS at the shows I attend - a woman LEO would be best), march him(her) over to this guys table, and then quote the law this guy is breaking. If nothing else, the LEO will be forced to make this guy remove the porn from his table, HE MIGHT arrest the guy (doubtful) or just give him a warning ticket. BUT, the best part is, with the LEO standing there, tell this guy that at THIS SHOW, his products are not wanted nor appreciated AND that every time he shows up with this type of merchandise, he can expect legal harrasment from the LEO, brought to his table by YOU! That will tell this guy to peddle his crap elsewhere.

The best part is, you are actually doing the show promoter a favor, because most of the promoters don't like confrontations with people who are giving them money to show merchandise at their event.
 
I wonder if counties might use this promotion of pornography in an uncontrolled environment as a reason to shut gun shows down. I'm not a prude, but there is a place for this and that place is not at a gun show.
 
My mother promoted book fairs in Pennsylvania for many years.

The contract specifically stated "No overtly sexually oriented material," and then listed a few of the things that were and were not permissible under show guidelines.

Every couple of years we'd have someone show up with a couple of boxes of Swank, Oui, Hustler, Puritan, etc., and set them up for sale.

Violation of contract, which specifically mentioned those magazines. If they willingly put them under the table (which they always did) fine.

One guy tried this two years running, just to be a smart ass. He never got another contract for the show.

Why am I recounting this? Beats me. I'm bored... :)
 
Mike Irwin's suggestion makes good sense.

It's best for gun show promoters to police themselves than to have the government (at any level) police them. We can agree that it is not in the best interest of Second Amendment supporters like ourselves to associate with Nazism yet we do not want the intervention of government along with its onerous other implications. Those against us would have a field day with a "news" report at such a show. While both John/AZ2 and JimR raise a valid point, First Amendment Freedom of Speech and the penumberal Right of Association, of which I wholeheartedly support in concept, the issue can resolve itself by simple application of self policing as suggested by Mike.

Returning to my simpler point, gun shows are for guns and gun accessories; not T-shirts, jewelry, beef jerky and other non-firearm items.
 
We haven't defined Pornography for the purposes of this problem.

Some people refer to R and NC-17 rated movies as pornography. Others consider only the magazines with the plastic covers and things worse to be pornography.

SodaPop, you need to give us more detail about what you saw before we can intelligently make a judgement about your particular incident.

So was it XXX, R, NC-17, bikini calendars, what?
 
One of my favorite recent "gun show" finds is a coffee-table sized book, "Bettie Page: Queen of Hearts," which contains dozens of photos and drawings of Page, the famous 1950s pinup gal. Many of these images are nude, showing pretty much everything except genitalia. (She wasn't that kind of girl.)

I found this at a table run by a middle-aged woman who offered all manner of kitschy trinkets, including some other large picture books. I asked her if she felt out-of-place at a gun show and she said, for health reasons she prefers indoor shows and she rents for the venue more than for the type of show, even though her type of merchandise is seen more often at outdoor flea markets.

It would be difficult, in setting a rule for content of books sold at an event, to distinguish objectively between the book I bought and a copy of Playboy. It might be easier to distinguish it from a copy of "Barely Legal Teens in Bondage, Vol. IV" but this would be picking nits.

Of course, gun show management doesn't have to be "objective," and can simply accept or refuse merchants based on "our interest in creating a quality environment," blah-blah-blah. It's their business.

Personally, my idea of a well-appointed gun show would have about 40 percent gun sellers, 35 percent gun accessory/ammo sellers, 15 percent hunting/survival gear, and 10 percent "other," which would include t-shirts, games and other novelty items, and of course those dangerous book/video sellers. Anything rated X should have access restricted to adults.

I'm not worried about the media making a big deal about porn for sale at gun shows. If any were silly enough to do so it would give our side a chance to champion the 1st Amendment along with the 2nd Amendment. It would also likely bring a larger crowd of young men to the next gun show.

Of course, y'wanna talk about what the food concessions charge for a friggin' hamburger, now _there's_ your scandal!

Oh, and anyone who says "I'm not a prude, but..." usually is whether he realizes it or not.
 
Ban porno at gun shows, and you will very soon be hearing more than you ever wanted to hear about "the pornography of violence", and the supposed sexual implications of firearms. That said, I see nothing wrong with the show promoters kicking these people out, but PLEASE, no laws!
 
Soda,
No you're not a prude. Porn has it's place like everything else. A Gun Show proper isn't the place IMHO, it's out of place and off topic.

Hmmm. I remember something else about OT, and how disruptive it can be. Might be some kind of vast left wing conspiricy. ;)

Personally, if I were in charge of the show, I'd set the guy up at a location far removed from everyone else, in an area that was labeled "No One Under 18 Allowed With or Without Parent or Guardian". It would be the sellers responsibility to insure valid age verification. Having him foot the bill for an off duty cop or something, to check ID's. It's his cost of doing business. The show promoters have every right to cover their behind in any way they see fit. If the porn vendor doesn't like it, he can always rent the place himself for his own porn show promotion, and split the cost with other porn sellers.
 
I like the bill of rights. All of it. As long as the guy isn't displaying T&A where everyone walking by has to look at it, no problem. If you don't like it, don't go to the trouble of looking at it.

As far as Nazi stuff is concerned. My father is a WWII nut. There's a vast difference between collectors and your basic "Illinois Nazi." I try to keep that in mind when I see displays. If there is ANYTHING overtly racist on the table, I start bitching. Loudly.

I also tend to go off if I see a table selling crap like the "Turner Diaries" book. We don't need that stuff in _our_ culture. That's a different culture.
 
The guys running the gun show have the right to ban anything they please, but personally, I don't mind seeing the Nazi stuff or the porn. We once laughed the KKK out of a bike show. They had a right to be there, we had a right to laugh. I lined up the following folks in front of their table, me-6 foot tattoo'd hillbilly biker(presumably the target audiance), my Native American wife, my 350 pound Chinese American, powerlifter riding bro, his 6'4" African American, Kung Fu instructor girlfriend, and 4 Hispanic members of the Vietnam Vets Motorcycle Club. We looked at the stuff and started making fun of them. They packed up and left after less that 15 minutes of the "what comical and pathetic morons" treatment. Maybe a "shaming" might be a workable approach in other situations?
 
Its hardcore Ponography its not Playboy magazines its more than that. Do I have to be more descriptive?

Second of All I already got a response from the Promoters and they said they Do know who I'm talking about. They said the Guy has been told, and if he sets it up again he's going to get kicked out. Game Over!

[Edited by SodaPop on 01-15-2001 at 08:02 PM]
 
slightly off topic, but...

However, it is quite another thing altogether to adopt the regalia of a defeated enemy as symbolic of one's own beliefs and values.
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Does this apply to the Confederacy? The CSA is a bit harder to demonize because they were our "brothers" while the Nazis' were "over there."
The CSA provides us with an interesting paradox. Many of us are very pro-states rights, yet detest the institution of slavery.
 
The Battle Flag of the Army of No. Virginia would be included...

if one still believes the grade school education they received about the Wa-oh Between the States. Like the American Revolution, the more I read about it the less I believe in the nobility of the Sons of Liberty. My grade school teachers would have me believe that the War was fought to free the slaves. Granted that slavery as an institution is wrong and no one in present time would adopt it as a practice, there were many other factors of greater importance. For the South, it was a preservation of rights and life as they knew it. For the North, it was preservation of the Union. When elected, Lincoln proclaimed that he had no intent to free the slaves. The Emancipation Proclamation wasn't made until 1863. Further, it was calculated to prevent the European Nations from recognizing the Confederacy. There were also the numerous riots in the North (predominantly New York) when many refused to be drafted because the focus of the war shifted from saving the Union to freeing the slaves.

If my appreciation of the War is correct, then the Confederate battle flag is not symbolic of racism. However, herein lies the problem. Like the Nazi Swastika, the honored Confederate flag has been adopted by some racists, and when displayed by them, it naturally raises the ire of groups like the NAACP, whose natural reaction calls for the banning of the flag as symbolic of racism. Hence, the issue turns on how the flag is displayed. When flown by reenactors or displayed in a museum, it is quite acceptable. When carried by men in white hooded gowns, it is altogether a different matter.

Mind you, there is a very slow growing awareness of all the Afro-Americans who served the Confederacy. Many started out as manservants, but fought alongside their masters anyway. Some were freeman and one in Texas rose to the rank of sergeant. During the 20th Century, many were granted pensions by the Southern states for their service during the war. It's a bit of history which the NAACP, Sharpton and Jackson would rather forget.
 
Hence, the issue turns on how the flag is displayed.
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I fear who might be the one to determine the displayers "intent."

I do not claim to be an expert, but it was my understanding the the traditional confederate "x" battle flag was little used during the Wa-oh of Northern Agression but addopted by the Klan after the Reconstruction. A more traditional CSA "Political" flag would be the Stars and Bars or the Blue Bonnie, or so I understand.

Funny, I may have to pay retro-active damages to decendents of Slavery when none of my ancestors arived in this country before 1890...
 
The Stars and Bars was the battleflag of the Army of Virginia. This was the army formed after Lincoln ordered Virginia to supply 10,000 men to invade the South. Well, the army was formed, but went in the other direction. This was the order which forced Lee (Lincoln's first choice as CinC of union forces) to switch sides.

The Stars and Bars was tainted by racists in the '50s, when it was added to state flags as a symbol of resistance to desegregation.

As a native of Tennessee, I can respect the Stars and Bars for what it stood for, fighting for one's way of life, and one's home against outside intrusion. I don't respect the racist scumbags (i.e. targets) who perverted it.
 
The Sons of Liberty were, in many ways, not unlike the early Brown Shirts in Germany or the Fascists in Italy.

Samuel Adams essentially created the Sons of Liberty, largely from uneducated working class men, fanned the flames of discontent in them, and pointed them at the perceived enemy.

Some of the actions undertaken by the Sons of Liberty were nothing more than mob violence/riots directed at the King's officials in Massachusetts. They were practicing, in some cases, what today would be called domestic terrorism.

Harsh, but true.
 
Lets use TFL as a for gun shows and have the directors of the show, along with the people at the show, police themselves. Have a policy that states firearms and related acessories and liturature are OK, but anything else should not be put out for sale. Gun shows are about firearms, and firearm related occupations or hobbies. I'm all for the bill of rights, but a gun show should be somewhere where one goes to look at GUNS. If someone wants to look at books/literature, then there are places for that. I wouldn't want somebody selling cars at a gun show, there are other places for buying automobiles. I wouldn't want somebody selling lawn furnature at a gun show, there are other places for that. I wouldn't want somebody selling hemmeroid cream at a gun show (even if I did drive 4 hours), because there are other places to buy that merchandice. Lets keep the shows specialized.
/rant off/
 
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