Is This muzzle loading??

Guyon,

Thank you for the welcome!

Another issue to consider while using scoped in-lines during blackpowder/muzzleloader/primitive hunts: Public perception.

Perception was alluded to in a previous post; feed some venison to friends, then show them the flinter/side lock percusion you took the deer with. Or, bring out the scoped in-line and show your visitors that. I don't believe most people would really care at that point - you're at home, etc...not in the field. However, in a primitive season I don't believe the average American would expect to see a scoped rifle used in the field. Granted, it's a muzzle loader by definition because it's loaded from the muzzle - but, the in-lines look so much like center fire rifles a casual observer would likely not know the difference. I'm sure some mouth breathing anti-gunner would love to capture a photo of an inline hunter during a primitive season and post that photo in one of the silly liberal rags with the included inflamatory caption under it.

We already have anough problems from the likes of Diane Feinswine calling anything with a scope on it a sniper rifle without adding to the propaganda.
 
The bottom line is that muzzle loading seasons WERE set up by traditional hunters FOR traditional hunters. Like CAS, ML season was anti-progress and anti-technology. It was SUPPOSED to be set aside from improvements. It was NOT an attempt to set back the clock to 1860, wind it up, and see how guns would develope this time. We already know how that turned out.

And to repeat myself, anyone who argues differently is not being honest with himself or his fellow hunters.

Now, as to the question of . . . . . 'Why do I care?'

Because, in-lines are now the equal of a single shot cartridge guns, and this is creating problems for hunting in general.

Fairness, Conflicting Interests, and Hunting with Technology.

Why should a hunter armed with an ultra-modern, scoped, in-line rifle be given a SPECIAL season, over a hunter armed with a single shot cartridge shotgun? The very legitimacy of a special ML season is being challenged by cartridge hunters, AND RIGHTFULLY SO!

Many special ML seasons are scheduled during critical times of the year, like during the "rut". This has real consequences for game management. Due to the increased lethality of in-lines, and the vastly increased number of hunters using them, game departments are starting to constrict the ML seasons. From a harvest standpoint, it's now as if there are TWO gun-seasons, instead of only one. Traditional ML's, with their limited hunting effectiveness and even more limited shooter appeal, caused NO such concerns. Burgeoning deer herds have postponed some of this, but not everywhere, and not for long anywhere.

Soon, I suspect, we will be back where we started. One season.

Ultimately, in-lines will ruin it for EVERYONE. We will loose the special ML season, and alot of in-line shooters will have wasted alot of money on guns they no longer need, and never really wanted. That's too bad, and could have been prevented.

What's really sad, is that this in-line vs. traditional issue is just a preview for the bigger conflict that ALL types of hunting are going to face in the future (if not already); TECHNOLOGY !!!

If we as hunters can't control ourselves when it comes to re-creating an old-fashioned muzzleloading season. How are we ever going to control the technology that is flooding into the regular seasons? LASER's, thermal imaging, scent-control-suits, etc., etc., etc.

And THE NON-HUNTING PUBLIC IS WATCHING !!!

Hunting is, by it's very nature, an anachronistic pursuit. Most of the world's population gave it up for farming about 8,000 years ago. America got a new lease on hunting life, due to a fortunate gift of history & geography. Today, NONE of us NEEDS to hunt. We LIKE to hunt, but we'll all get by without it. Hunting will continue, ONLY as long as the non-hunting population tolerates it. 20 million hunters (and decreasing), 280 million non-hunters (and increasing), you do the math. If they see us as having no self control, no "sportsmanship", using every possible gadget to take advantage of, and kill our game, then they will replace us with other less visibly offensive solutions. Like contract sharpshooters using NVG's and sound-surpressed automatic weapons at night. It's already happening! The deer will still die, but out of sight, so the public will FEEL better about it.

I've been accused of using emotionalism to make my point. Guilty as charged! Humans are emotional critters, and we ignore that fact at our peril. My "dinner with ole Betsy" example is an actual tactic, that I have used, successfully I might add, to win over non-hunters. And like it or not;

Davey Crockett beats Robo-Hunter in a landslide at the voting booth!!!

Happy hunting, while it lasts.
 
BluRidgDav & Jimmie Mac

My CVA inline is equal to my single shot 30-30 Topper H&R? WOW... that is cool news to me!


Now, both are scoped...

but I can shoot the 30-30 farhter, and ALOT quicker than I can my inline...

my inline is still good only to about 100 yards... even WITH a saboted pistol bullet...

my 30-30 can (and HAS) killed at 200+ yards...

I can shoot the 30-30 single shot about 4 times in the time it takes me to shoot and reload the CVA 1 time...

and it AIN'T due to a lack of practice... I average 500 shots a year or so, playing with my CVA... (used 2 pounds of powder already this year, and season ain't until December here, and I haven't gotten into full-swing practice with it either...) even with the TC speedloaders, I can't shoot the front-stuffer that fast... it ain't gonna happen...

it is FAR from equal to a single-shot rifle... heck, even my 45-70 Trapdoor Springfield is 3 times faster for shot #2... and my Ruger #1 in 243 is WAY FAST comparatively...

that is FAR from equal... just because i like an enclosed primer, and a hotter primer doesn't mean it isn't "fair"... and sorry if you dislike my gun... I didn't buy it to please you! I bought it because it pleases ME...
 
I don't think the inline offers any read advantage. You are not going to kill anything with an inline that I can't get with my flinter or my cap lock. I have been shooting these guns weekly for years.
I don't miss. I know how to make them sure fire. A missfire is my last worry in the woods.

The BS hype and propaganda from the inline makers would make you think that there is a huge advantage there but the only advantage they offer is they are more reliable when dirty.

I hunt with a clean rifle.
 
BluRidgDav, you make some good points in your last post and have given me some food for thought.

I'm not entirely sold on the idea that inlines are any worse than flintlocks when it comes to public perception. Almost all of the anti-hunters I know object to the death of the animal at human hands and not to how it died. I'm not sure that liberal soccer moms in their Volvo station wagons really delve too much into hunting technology. Most folks these days know so little about firearms that the term "flintlock" means little or nothing to them. Of course, these are the same folks that happily gobble down their McDonald's hamburgers and like to think that all deer should die of old age and go to deer heaven.

And if Jimmy Mac is right in that inlines offer no real advantage, then the antis don't have much room to argue that technology is getting out of hand.

I'm still going to use my inline, given the short span of TN's season and the fact that I have to hunt when I can. I hunt on public land, and I don't like to hunt much on the weekends. That cuts down on my time even more. I bought my muzzleloader to give me three or four extra days in the season, and I plan to use them. It's my legal right, and I have no moral misgivings about my decision. Like I said before, live and let live.

But I was serious about looking into a traditional muzzleloader for next year. If they're as challenging as you make out, then I ought to like them. I'm always up for a challenge.
 
I'm not entirely sold on the idea that inlines are any worse than flintlocks when it comes to public perception. Almost all of the anti-hunters I know object to the death of the animal at human hands and not to how it died. I'm not sure that liberal soccer moms in their Volvo station wagons really delve too much into hunting technology. Most folks these days know so little about firearms that the term "flintlock" means little or nothing to them. Of course, these are the same folks that happily gobble down their McDonald's hamburgers and like to think that all deer should die of old age and go to deer heaven.

And if Jimmy Mac is right in that inlines offer no real advantage, then the antis don't have much room to argue that technology is getting out of hand.
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Guyon,

I agree with a lot of what you observe. But, the one thing anyone who watches TV recognizes is a rifle scope. And thanks to TV once again, the general public is under the mistaken impression that having a scope on a firearm virtually assures you will hit what you want to hit. As a matter of fact, the less a person knows about firearms, the more likely he/she will believe a scope makes a hit 100% guaranteed. Just take a look at the various proposed 'sniper rifle' restrictions/laws that crop up more and more frequently in the federal and state governments. The central theme is a rifle, any rifle mind you, that has a scope on it – any scope.

I won't give up my scoped rifle anytime soon...but I believe that allowing scoped in-lines during muzzle loading season really has the potential to give the hunting community a public relations black eye.
 
We've only had a muzzleloader in Georgia for about three years now and the DNR specifically had inlines in mind when they started our primitive weapons season.So in my state it would be incorrect to say that our primitive weapons season was started for the mountain men,buckskinners,ect.

OTOH,I don't like yuppies buying cage traps and using them to trap in the furbearer trapping seaon.The trapping season was started for men to use real traps,but if they want to use their cage traps I won't stop them.
 
I have to agree with Jimmy Mac.
I think that the spirit of the muzzleloading season is primitive.

Could be wrong but I think in NY State they used to call it primitive season. Then muzzleloading, next it will be blackpowder season.

I agree it's legal to use inline, but I think it conflicts with the spirit of the original intent.

I don't think they opened up the extra week just so hunters could go out and bag more deer.

Why not just make the season a week longer and use whatever you want?

Question: Bow hunters. Do you think you should be allowed to use crossbows during bow season?
;)
 
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Teltech,crossbows were just legalized for bow season in my state and only a small minority of hunters objected in the polls.
 
Ladies and Gents, my $.02....

I've been using various BP guns since the 60s, when Pop got into Civil War Centennial re-enactments.

When Md started a ML Season, I had the first combination license sold in the county. I've taken deer and some small game with Round balls, Minie balls, Maxi balls, and so on.

Outside of a H&R "Huntsman", a break open 58 caliber M/L based on their shotgun action, none of my 10 or so BP rifles have been an inline. I like the old stuff better, and it works for me.

Last year was pretty busy, so I only fired three shots from my TC High Plains Sporter.

The first one was to check zero. It was perfect.

Shots two and three were at deer. Checked in both of them, and neither ran more than 50 yards after center of shoulder hits.

And while I was doing this, my two closest hunting buds were having misfires with their inlines. One missed out on a very nice buck when his Remington 700 ML misfired. The other lost a chance at a meat doe with his Encore.

I've never had a glitch in the field with a classic ML. And I like the simplicity,history and looks of the older style stuff.

Back when I could bowhunt, I used a longbow while those two guys used state of art compounds, releases, carbon arrers and so on. They may have taken more deer, but sure didn't have more fun.

So here's my policy statement....

I care not a whit if the next hunter over is using a bow whittled out from a fencepost or something belt fed and lazer sighted as long as he or she is hunting legally, safely, ethically, and mostly hits where it counts.

What counts is what we hold in our hearts, not what we hold in our hands.

(Dismounting from pulpit)....
 
Sorry for brining up an old topic.....I just bought a new inline muzzleloader last night. For me, it was the only way to go. For one: I have four children, so the use of my income extends far beyond my personal weapon collection. And two: Here on Camp Lejeune, you have there are two weapons you may use....Shotgun, or Muzzloader. For $100, the choice is pretty obvious. Even in kit form (which I'd love to build) you can't top the price.

I've been shooting muzzloaders since long before they were cool, and have worn out more than one barrel. Yep, I cut the cards, split the ball on a double bit axe, threw a tomohawk, and hit that 200 yard gong more than once. Here's a novel idea, instead of pushing all the elitist crap, you could try welcoming folks to community. Never met your first muzzloading arsehole?? I did. In this thread.


s/f
Ed
 
Ed,

First, THANK YOU for your service to our Country!

Second, I wish you luck during the coming deer season(s).

Last, This thread's been "dead" for over two years.
There's no need to dig it up, just to call folks bad names.

BRD.
 
Holy Smokes! I hadn't realized it was over two years....al I saw was "8-23"....

Anyway, I'm sure you can understand how someone can feel passionately about this topic regardless of which side he chooses....and I'll leave it at that.


Ed
 
There shouldn't be any disagreement on tradition or traditional rifles vs in-lines. Truth is, in-lines would have been the natural evolution of the
sidelock muzzleloading rifle, had that evolution not been interupted by development of the breach loading cartridge rifle. ;)
 
Inlines and "primitive season"

Sure the thread is "closed" but I should be able to add something to the whole point of the question at hand.

First is cost, sure you can get nice sidelocks for 300 dollars, even less if its an unfinished kit. But anyone can go to walmart and purchase an inline rifle with everything except caps and powder for well under 200 dollars.

Second comes accuracy and stopping power. Even though we have been hunting for different lengths of time we should all be able to admit that putting a ball, sabot, conical, minnie, and or maxie ball into a deer in a way that it cause death as quickly and humanely possible.

When Jimmy Mac says he can put his ROUND ball into a deers heart at 100yards everytime and get that deer, he simply scares me. A round ball from a rifle just wont have much kinetic energy at that range, so we shouldnt take shots like those with a roundball. Sure a sidelock with a maxie ball could drop that deer quickly, and even the 310grn .451 sabots i use can if i wanted to at 200 yards, but whats the point if your hunting in heavy woods like i do?
 
Dave McC got it right.

What counts is what we hold in our hearts, not what we hold in our hands.
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I hunt with a compound bow. Do I think that I am more or less correct than anyone else? I welcome anyone to the hunting fraternity and I will not disparage or attempt to outlaw anyone else’s equipment.

We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.
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Franklin

I truly admire the bow hunters who choose to make their own bows and hunt with wooden arrows. I will never achieve that level of competence, nor will I have that amount of time. Should I quit hunting?

I really think we need to accept everyone who chooses to hunt and attempt to educate all hunters in an effort to eliminate the slob hunter and the slob hunter perception.

Just my thoughts,

Charles
 
Re; Post # 22

Jimmy;
What happened to your style?
You only managed to misspell one word in Post # 22, amazing!
Have you been scamming us all this time? :rolleyes:
Don
 
Inline

Bluridgdav;
Are you aware inline ignition has been around since at least 1836?
WOO-WOO, every one who used a revolver before , during , and after the Civil War[including revolving rifles and carbines and all the other inventor's ideas that did not involve side hammers , chipped stone, pyrites and strikers or slow matches]
were cheating and trying to steal YOUR SEASON! :rolleyes:
Don
 
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