Reminds me of my first shotgun: Ithaca 66 single shot 12 gauge. Stick one in the pipe, pull the hammer back and fire. Heavy beast. I prefer pump guns now.
Is there such thing as a Trust Your Life with it shotgun?
- Thread starter SaltyPirate
- Start date
I never said use a Dremel; that thing should never be near a gun. But the method I described works fine. It's major flaw is because it is built to a price point to compete against Chinese clones and the like; much in the same way that Lodge doesn't do that final polishing the way Wagner and Griswold did - keeps costs down.
I have seen Novas, Winchesters, Mossbergs, and even a BPS being beat on the ground to extract a fired hull also. No 37s because they aren't tough enough.
All the gun manufacturers decided about the same time that chambers did not have to be mirror smooth, Unfortunately about the same time the ammo makes started using steel bases. Problems ensued.
Remington pretty much solved this issue at least 10 years ago, but the internet sages like to talk about it because they think it makes them look wise.
A lot of people are mad because you cannot buy a sweetly finished Wingmaster for an Express price, too.
If you have a problematic gun for God's sake why don't you fix it instead of bleating on the internet about it ?
I am a retired gunsmith and sold guns for many years. The biggest enemy of repeating shotguns is shooters.
All the gun manufacturers decided about the same time that chambers did not have to be mirror smooth, Unfortunately about the same time the ammo makes started using steel bases. Problems ensued.
Remington pretty much solved this issue at least 10 years ago, but the internet sages like to talk about it because they think it makes them look wise.
A lot of people are mad because you cannot buy a sweetly finished Wingmaster for an Express price, too.
If you have a problematic gun for God's sake why don't you fix it instead of bleating on the internet about it ?
I am a retired gunsmith and sold guns for many years. The biggest enemy of repeating shotguns is shooters.
OP. What sort of jam did you have? You never described the details. What parts did you receive from Remington to fix the previous problem? Did you replace the parts?
Most gunsmiths don't use Dremel. They have foredem, which is a Dremel on steroid. Problem is not the tool, but the user.
-TL
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
Most gunsmiths don't use Dremel. They have foredem, which is a Dremel on steroid. Problem is not the tool, but the user.
-TL
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
i bought a remington 870 made in 1953 by the barrel code, a farm gun and looked like it. covered in barn dust-light rust and left loaded in the milk house for god knows how many years. just for s#its giggles i fired a box of my trap loads thru in and it no FTF-FTE,s. i cleaned it up and sold it to another farm owner for a farm gun.
Some steel based ammo will hang in the chamber. Seen it with a lot of Walmart Winchester and federal/estate ammo. Especially in 870 Express guns, I had a batch of shells that would hang in an old 870 Trap gun that's smooth as silk. The Express guns do have a problem, probably rough chambers, but there is a lot of sub standard ammo out there.
WAy back in my Practical shooting days, I used an 870, with a 14" barrel (Canada) rifle a Steyer AUG. When you could have 30 round Magazines.
Joe, a buddy, rolled up with an 1100 Shotgun. Semi-Auto. In the box!
"You have not fired it?" It didn't shoot at all. I lent him my 870, it worked.
He called me later "A drill bit broke off in the bolt, no firing pin, just a drill bit!"
I think the letter he sent back to the Factory, with the Shotty, in the box, set it on fire!
Joe, a buddy, rolled up with an 1100 Shotgun. Semi-Auto. In the box!
"You have not fired it?" It didn't shoot at all. I lent him my 870, it worked.
He called me later "A drill bit broke off in the bolt, no firing pin, just a drill bit!"
I think the letter he sent back to the Factory, with the Shotty, in the box, set it on fire!
KnightofCydonia
New member
I'd pick one that's proven in combat, has a long term LEO record, or one that is proven in waterfowling where it's dirty and lots of shots are fired.
Winchester M97 (WWI, WW2)
Winchester M12 (WW2, Korea, Waterfowling)
Ithaca M37 (WW2, Korea, Vietnam, LAPD, NYPD)
Remington 870 (Vietnam, Current Military/LEO, Waterfowling shotgun)
Mossberg 590A1 (Current Military/LEO)
Benelli M2/M3/M4 (Current Military/LEO)
Honourable mentions: Stevens 77E (Vietnam), Winchester M1200 (Vietnam), Remington 11-87P (O-ring keeps this one off my list although not a huge factor), Browning Auto 5, High Standard Flite-King, Benelli Nova/Supernova
An esoteric question for you all, since shotguns are low capacity weapons used in CQB, one may need to use it as a club. I've never hit anybody with the butt of a shotgun, but does butt-stroking an assailant with an aluminum receiver with polymer stock shotgun versus a steel and walnut shotgun have an appreciable effect? More mass theoretically should result in more force based on Force = Mass x Acceleration. In the real world, does it matter?
Winchester M97 (WWI, WW2)
Winchester M12 (WW2, Korea, Waterfowling)
Ithaca M37 (WW2, Korea, Vietnam, LAPD, NYPD)
Remington 870 (Vietnam, Current Military/LEO, Waterfowling shotgun)
Mossberg 590A1 (Current Military/LEO)
Benelli M2/M3/M4 (Current Military/LEO)
Honourable mentions: Stevens 77E (Vietnam), Winchester M1200 (Vietnam), Remington 11-87P (O-ring keeps this one off my list although not a huge factor), Browning Auto 5, High Standard Flite-King, Benelli Nova/Supernova
An esoteric question for you all, since shotguns are low capacity weapons used in CQB, one may need to use it as a club. I've never hit anybody with the butt of a shotgun, but does butt-stroking an assailant with an aluminum receiver with polymer stock shotgun versus a steel and walnut shotgun have an appreciable effect? More mass theoretically should result in more force based on Force = Mass x Acceleration. In the real world, does it matter?
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I think so, but I wouldn't put anything NEW on my list.
Not having been much involved with shotguns in recent years this is news to me, and sad news, indeed. Steel bases in shotshells means that new ammo is no longer trustworthy, to me.
I'm an old guy, and I have old guns, and I trust them with my life, due to decades of personal experience with them. Am sad to hear about all the problems with the 870 Express, I bought one, either the year they came out, or shortly after, and it's been FLAWLESS. However, from what I hear, newer ones aren't. Originally the Express was simply the 870 wingmaster without engraving, a "parkerized" finish, blued bolt and a plain stock.
Apparently, they are not like that today.
I wouldn't bet my life on anything "new" or "out of the box". Arms, and ammo for personal defense should be tested. USED until you're personally confident in their operation. No matter who's name is on it, or how much you paid.
The 1920s mfg Winchester Model of 1912 that I've owned since the early 1970s has my full faith and confidence. I would trust my life on that gun working when I needed it to. NOTHING "out of the box" today has that. They might earn that level of trust, but they won't get it, until its earned.
I'd say it matters. Might matter a lot, if you need to hit someone with the gun a second time...
I'd say it also matters if you expect to use the gun as a gun, afterwards, too. 
This is also why I favor steel frames on my pistols. I'll put up with the heavier weight to carry because when everything else fails, your gun is an impact weapon and very badly needed to be the most effective one possible at that point. Light weight alloys and plastics are simply not the best materials for that job. True, the odds on needing it are uber slim, but if you do need it, you need it badly, and I'll put up with the hassles of having it, so that if I do need it, it's there. But, that's just me...
stinkeypete
New member
Knight- Ithaca Model 37... add WW2 and Korea please!
Mine has always gone “bang” every single time.
I’ve only had one fail to feed in my whole life but that was me and a stupid short stroke that cleared in 2 seconds. I shoot pumps, over and unders, side by side exposed hammers and single shot. Nothing against autoloaders it’s just I’m pretty well set.
Mine has always gone “bang” every single time.
I’ve only had one fail to feed in my whole life but that was me and a stupid short stroke that cleared in 2 seconds. I shoot pumps, over and unders, side by side exposed hammers and single shot. Nothing against autoloaders it’s just I’m pretty well set.
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Yes you can
While a lot of Remington 870s work great and are reliable there is a trend with a lot of the newer 870 express models to put out guns without quality control. Here is a thread from The Firing Line regarding favorite pump guns. Mossberg 500s are in a lot of ways a superior gun to the 870 as America's #1 pump shotgun. They have dual extractors and a better finished barrel in general. Classic Ithaca 37s and Browning BPS are solid guns too.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=606354&highlight=favorite+pump+gun
Though your 870 may not be reliable now, polishing the chamber and putting a real hardened extractor and stiff spring in the bolt will usually fix your issues so you can rely on the gun. You could also have gotten bad ammo but I doubt it. Usually if an 870 jams you didn't fully insert the shells in the chamber and one got stuck under the carrier or you have a rough chamber. Also don't short stroke the gun. Make sure you snap it back smartly after you fire and fully push it back into battery.
While a lot of Remington 870s work great and are reliable there is a trend with a lot of the newer 870 express models to put out guns without quality control. Here is a thread from The Firing Line regarding favorite pump guns. Mossberg 500s are in a lot of ways a superior gun to the 870 as America's #1 pump shotgun. They have dual extractors and a better finished barrel in general. Classic Ithaca 37s and Browning BPS are solid guns too.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=606354&highlight=favorite+pump+gun
Though your 870 may not be reliable now, polishing the chamber and putting a real hardened extractor and stiff spring in the bolt will usually fix your issues so you can rely on the gun. You could also have gotten bad ammo but I doubt it. Usually if an 870 jams you didn't fully insert the shells in the chamber and one got stuck under the carrier or you have a rough chamber. Also don't short stroke the gun. Make sure you snap it back smartly after you fire and fully push it back into battery.
OP what sort of malfunctions are you having? Just saying that it jams doesn’t give us much to go on. As for trusting my life to a shotgun, I trusted a Remington 870 Wingmaster I bought as my first gun when I was 14 or 15 back in the early 70s. I hunted birds and small game with it for years with 0 malfunctions. Got an 18” barrel for it and used it as my home defense gun for many years. I lost it when my mom’s house burned down, having left it there through sheer negligence on my part.
I currently trust my H&R Pardner Pump Protector. It’s a Chinese clone of an 870 that’s proven to be perfectly reliable for me. It’s built of all forged steel with no MIM parts like the 870 Express. I would also trust an 870 Police Magnum but only after shooting it first. Having almost 40 years experience with 870s, I am absolutely comfortable with them.
I currently trust my H&R Pardner Pump Protector. It’s a Chinese clone of an 870 that’s proven to be perfectly reliable for me. It’s built of all forged steel with no MIM parts like the 870 Express. I would also trust an 870 Police Magnum but only after shooting it first. Having almost 40 years experience with 870s, I am absolutely comfortable with them.
KnightofCydonia
New member
In your opinion, does a bottom feeding and ejecting shotgun like the BPS/Ithaca stay truly cleaner with less dirt and rain getting in?
Get Intimate
Salty; (OP)
Getting back to your concerns and question: Is there a shotgun, out of the box, that I would trust with my life?
The answer is obvious! I would not trust "any" firearm that I was not familiar or as I often say; "Intimately familiar with."
This has been my experience and have corrected in three X-Presses. However, I have also corrected problems with 500's and Ithaca's as well as others.
My current home defense shotgun, is an "older" Remington Express. …
Be Safe !!!
Salty; (OP)
Getting back to your concerns and question: Is there a shotgun, out of the box, that I would trust with my life?
The answer is obvious! I would not trust "any" firearm that I was not familiar or as I often say; "Intimately familiar with."
This has been my experience and have corrected in three X-Presses. However, I have also corrected problems with 500's and Ithaca's as well as others.
My current home defense shotgun, is an "older" Remington Express. …
Be Safe !!!
stinkeypete
New member
@Knight... the main thing about the (bottom ejecting) Model 37 is that it ejects the shells DOWN.
Left or right handed friendly.
Doesn't spin the ejected shell across to hit the buddy standing next to you.
Easier to find your hulls for policing the litter.
The design is easier to clean the magazine tube than the 870 styles. I find small leaves, twigs and seeds and stuff in there sometimes after being in the high grass. The Bolt assembly is harder to get at than the 870 styles.
I have never heard anyone claim they are better at keeping water out. When it's raining, water just gets everywhere.
Left or right handed friendly.
Doesn't spin the ejected shell across to hit the buddy standing next to you.
Easier to find your hulls for policing the litter.
The design is easier to clean the magazine tube than the 870 styles. I find small leaves, twigs and seeds and stuff in there sometimes after being in the high grass. The Bolt assembly is harder to get at than the 870 styles.
I have never heard anyone claim they are better at keeping water out. When it's raining, water just gets everywhere.
Longhorn1986
New member
FWIW, I had the same issues with my 870 Express. The fired round rim would stick and not extract properly. I literally ripped the steel rim trying to get the shell out. It was not dependent on the ammo used. After polishing the chamber with a Dremel (VERY carefully!) and steel wool wrapped around a barrel brush, the shotgun is now completely reliable. I did change out the extractor just to be safe, but I don't believe the original caused any issues. I actually had the wife (a fairly novice shotgun shooter) running it at the range yesterday and we had zero malfunctions.
Study the You Tube videos carefully. Once you get the chamber sorted out, the gun will be fine.
Of course, if I'm running a semi-auto for tactical, I can't think of anything I prefer over my FN SLP Mk I.
Study the You Tube videos carefully. Once you get the chamber sorted out, the gun will be fine.
Of course, if I'm running a semi-auto for tactical, I can't think of anything I prefer over my FN SLP Mk I.
Not dependent on the ammo used? Or not dependent on which STEEL based ammo used?
Did the gun have the same issue with brass?
Did you try it with brass base shells??
Not trying to defend Remington, they clearly aren't making some guns up to the standards of yesteryear. Only saying its not fair to blame the gun alone when the problem is the combination of the gun and certain kinds of ammo.
Bill DeShivs
New member
Steel shotshell bases have been in common use (by US manufacturers) for 40+ years. Most are brass plated. They are nothing new.
SaltyPirate
New member
I drove back to where I had this in storage. Now that I had this thread going ... This is where is gets stuck. Tried it with 6 A-,Zooms.
I went back in my notes and read that Remington said this was a known issue and mailed me new left and right latches.
The pumping action does not chamber a fresh cartridge from the tube magazine.
Wish I could say it was a lack of forcing the pump through a strong cycle. It does help. Still every now and then a Snap Cap would lock it up.
I went back in my notes and read that Remington said this was a known issue and mailed me new left and right latches.
The pumping action does not chamber a fresh cartridge from the tube magazine.
Wish I could say it was a lack of forcing the pump through a strong cycle. It does help. Still every now and then a Snap Cap would lock it up.
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So a fresh round doesn't come out of the mag tube and get on to the carrier when you pump the forearm back. The cartridge stops need fitting. Remington couldn't fix it? Wow. It is basic shotgun repair. A competent smith should be able to fix that.
-TL
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
-TL
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk