Is there really a way out quickly?

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Just an observation, Redworm

The word respect has nothing to do with liking a person. The office that the current person in charge occupies is what demands respect. Redworm, you are joining the US Marine Corps, your Drill Instructor will teach you the meaning of respect. You may even hate him but you will respect him.

Sounds to me that you are a young man with a decent education. Education does not make one intelligent, it only makes one educated.
You have gone about this forum recently, with a condescending attitude towards people from the southern states, as if we are complete and utter imbeciles. Your insolence precedes you. I really shouldn't be addressing you personally, as this forum is supposed to be about ideas and not the individual.
However, at this time I find myself wanting in humility. You, sir need to control your self as you are your own worst enemy. Respect is earned and is mutual. You will not get respect through disrespect.

I intend no disrespect with the above statements. I should hope that the goal of any discussion on this forum is to exchange or present ideas in a civil manner. Not to degrade others for personal satisfaction or otherwise.

Have a good day, glad to see that you will fight for our country.
 
"Ramzi Yousef, the mastermind of the February 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center, had strong links to Iraq as well as to bin Laden's terrorist network. He flew to the United States using an Iraqi passport and appears to have acquired a false identity with the help of Iraqi authorities. Another suspect in the 1993 bombing, Abdul Rahman Yasin, later returned to Iraq and is believed to be living in Baghdad. Yasin is on the FBI’s “most wanted terrorists“ list for his alleged role in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing."

Yasin was the only 1993 World Trade Center bombing suspect that evaded prison initially. You might remember the events in which the US attempted to get Iraq to turn Yasin over to US officials, but the Iraqis insisted the US sign papers declaring Yasin had, in fact, been in an Iraqi prison since arriving in Baghdad. Well, he wasn't, but that's what Saddam wanted the world to believe.

Iraqi authorities, bowing to US pressure, granted permission for CBS reporter Lesley Stahl to interview the only participant in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing not in prison. Stahl also interviewed Iraqi deputy prime minister Tariq Aziz, who claimed that Yasin had been in prison in Iraq since 1994. Aziz asserted that Iraq had offered to hand Yasin over to the United States in 1994 and later in October 2001, in order to prove that Iraq was not involved in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. The U.S. refused, Aziz stated. A U.S. intelligence official was quoted by CBS as saying that the Iraqis failed in their attempt to have the Americans sign a document confirming Yasin's whereabouts since 1993; apparently, U.S. officials did not agree with the Iraqi version of the facts. And for good reason.
Well, suffice it to say, that in and of itself, despite the weapons programs and other terrorist activities, would be enough for most people. So, when Bush, Jr. speaks of terrorism, he is speaking about it with just a bit more knowledge than many of his detractors can seem to muster.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/wtcbomb.html
badbob
 
The word respect has nothing to do with liking a person. The office that the current person in charge occupies is what demands respect. Redworm, you are joining the US Marine Corps, your Drill Instructor will teach you the meaning of respect. You may even hate him but you will respect him.
I respect the office but I will not respect the man that does it dishonor by decieving the American people. I know the meaning of the respect and rest assured I will have plenty for my DIs.

But you're right, I'm probably going to hate his guts for three months. :p
Sounds to me that you are a young man with a decent education. Education does not make one intelligent, it only makes one educated.
You have gone about this forum recently, with a condescending attitude towards people from the southern states, as if we are complete and utter imbeciles. Your insolence precedes you. I really shouldn't be addressing you personally, as this forum is supposed to be about ideas and not the individual.
However, at this time I find myself wanting in humility. You, sir need to control your self as you are your own worst enemy. Respect is earned and is mutual. You will not get respect through disrespect.
For the record I was born and raised in the south. I will always call Atlanta my home but that doesn't mean I can ignore the south's reluctance to recognize the equal rights of blacks and other minorities. Granted the rest of the country was no less guilty but the level of hate emanating from the backwoods of Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee, Mississippi and the Carolinas can be astounding.
I intend no disrespect with the above statements. I should hope that the goal of any discussion on this forum is to exchange or present ideas in a civil manner. Not to degrade others for personal satisfaction or otherwise.

Have a good day, glad to see that you will fight for our country.
I appreciate the candor. I noticed that I've been overly harsh and critical the last few days. It's been a tough few weeks and I've taken it out on complete strangers under the veil of anonymity.

Still, while my comments have been over the top my opinions remain the same. I love this country and the ideals it was founded on. I do believe it's the best country in the world but it's far from perfect and I hope others can see that.
 
I don't want ot sidetrack this thread anymore than I have to. So any comments about this post should be directed either in another thread or by PM. This is to briefly answer a previous question about the military and disrespect of civilain leaders.

UCMJ Art. 88 CONTEMPT TOWARD OFFICIALS

Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.


You will note that this article is directed towards officers only. As regards enlisted personnel, Art. 134, the General Article is always applicable (it's the mother of all gotchas):

Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court.

With the above, anything that an officer would be punished for under Art. 88, enlisted may be punished for under Art. 134.

For example, Conduct Unbecoming of an Officer (Art. 133) becomes Conduct Unbecoming of a Marine (or whatever branch), Art. 134.
 
Iraq

How do you get out of quicksand? Some one helps you, and if you don't want help....
I'm sure the U.N. will help like they helped all those other countries that are still in chaos. But we peeved them off too over this one. This will give them the reason they need to build permanent bases over there. With a 100,000 security contractors and 130,000 troops we need more? But the oil keeps getting pumped.
 
Shades of Vietnam

I didn't read every word of the thread, just skimmed the highlights.

But, for those of us (you) that lived through that period, you should recognize all the similarities. Yes, the reasons may be different (fighting Commies vs. fighting a dangerous and de-stabilizing dictatorship).

The problem in both cases is that only SOME of the people we're there to "rescue", our on our side. So, you're essentially surrounded, at any time by people that may or may not be "on your side". (and they all have beefs with each other, besides.)

NOT like WWII, where you have defined objectives, defined lines and people that need/want to be liberated. There's no "central" government that's gonna surrender.

While I agree, or at least understand the reason why we invaded Iraq (which go above and beyond stopping a dangerous force in the region), we have NO "good" exit strategy....We'll probably end up abandoning them eventually, just like we did the South Vietnamese in 1975.
 
Rights are not bestowed or taken away by governments. If they were, they would be called priviledges. A government can violate rights and even make it legal to do so... it does not mean the people don't have the rights anymore, it just means their rights are being violated.

Pure semantics.

Did the Iraqi people freely elect a government that adopted a Constitution?

That pretty much settles the question of legitimate confiscation of firearms from the populace, regardless of your idealistic view (one that I also share, FYI).

Now, would you care to address the firearm confiscations conducted by the United States in post-war Germany and Japan as necessitated to rebuild these countries into some semblance of a democracy?

Did the United States "violate" the "rights" of the German and Japanese people by doing so? And, in case you missed it, there was the small item of "Unconditional Surrender" that took place in both instances.

800 lb gorillas don't like being ignored. :D
 
badbob,

From the site you listed:

If the above is true then why didn't the U.S. go after Iraq following the 1993 WTC bombings?

A: Clinton Administration. ;)

Now, are you claiming that Abdul Rahman Yasin did not flee to Iraq, was not interviewed there by Lesley Stahl?
 
Now, are you claiming that Abdul Rahman Yasin did not flee to Iraq, was not interviewed there by Lesley Stahl?

Jager, no I'm not claiming Yasin didn't flee to Iraq. I'm not claiming anything. The article is claiming the FBI helped cook the bomb. If the bombing plot was known before hand, why wasn't it stopped? Why was nobody held responsible for helping it happen?

badbob
 
Now, would you care to address the firearm confiscations conducted by the United States in post-war Germany and Japan as necessitated to rebuild these countries into some semblance of a democracy?

Did the United States "violate" the "rights" of the German and Japanese people by doing so? And, in case you missed it, there was the small item of "Unconditional Surrender" that took place in both instances.

If they disarmed private citizens, then I would have say that yes, the United States did indeed violate their rights. It's one thing to disarm the military of a defeated nation, it's quite another to disarm the civilian population.
 
What, no mention of our governments backing of Saddam against Iran during their war? And we wonder why Iran is is operating against us in Iraq today? All this talk of terrorism in Iraq and Saddam's backing of certain terror groups, yet we conveniently forget our government sold him many weapons in the 80's. Let's face it, our government has been making enemies in the mid-east for quite some time, and by backing Saddam earlier we emboldened him into taking Kuwait and reclaiming it as part of Iraq. I'm not claiming any easy answers to the quagmire we are in, but truly our government has made some terrible decisions concerning policy in the mid-east.
 
Yeah, there really is a way out quickly - leave. Now that they are free of Saddam, let the Iraqis sort things out for themselves.

Maybe I'm just slow, but I can't understand why we, as a nation, are so intent on making every armpit of the world a US franchisee. Nation-building is a long, ugly, expensive process, so why are we even involved in it? Don't get me wrong; when a country is being naughty, I'm all for setting it straight. But I am not thrilled by the prospect of adopting every delinquent nation in the world.

In my possibly simplistic view, we should take out threats when they exist and leave as soon as possible, with the promise to return and apply another butt kicking, if necessary. Afghanistan? We kicked out the Taliban and should have promptly left, preferably through Pakistan to track down bin Laden. Iraq? We deposed Saddam and should have promptly left. The only long-term troop commitments I would like to see around the world would be US-controlled forward staging bases.
 
In my possibly simplistic view, we should take out threats when they exist and leave as soon as possible, with the promise to return and apply another butt kicking, if necessary.

maybe we wouldn't have any threats if our government minded our own business and stopped trying to westernize everyone.
 
If they disarmed private citizens, then I would have say that yes, the United States did indeed violate their rights. It's one thing to disarm the military of a defeated nation, it's quite another to disarm the civilian population.

Do you think that it was not necessary to disarm civilian populations in the wake of an unconditional surrender? A surrender that was agreed to by the losing belligerents? Are you advocating that civilians should not be disarmed in the wake of a military defeat? :confused:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wpsrv/aponline/19991003/aponline132612_001.htm

Were the British, French, Russian and US forces serving in former Yugoslavia wrong in trying to confiscate firearms from the opposing factions and the civilian populace in the wake of a cessation of hostilities? If so, what do you recommend be done instead?

The US in France post-WWII:

http://www.army.mil/cmh/books/wwii/civaff/ch26.htm#b5

NEED FOR STABILIZING RESISTANCE FORCES IS RECOGNIZED
[G-5, AFHQ, Rpt, 18-23 Aug 44]
Bands of young members of the FFI have been roaming the countryside and some have taken threatening attitudes towards civilians. The activity of these bands is less pronounced than it was immediately after the landings. Also there has been some indication of disagreement between members of the FFI due, it is thought, to the fact that the "regulars" have considered that some of the recent "converts" were not entitled to membership. Many are said to be wearing armbands who are not authorized to wear them. The danger of possible civilian disorders has been brought officially to the attention of Colonel Lavilleon and it has been considered proper to suggest that members of the FFI, who have no military purpose to perform, should be disarmed. Colonel Lavilleon has taken the position that any precipitous action in requiring the FFI to disarm would be unfortunate, but he recognizes that the situation requires attention and proposes a program as follows:
(1) Instructions to chiefs to disarm all below the age of 18 and above the age of 45
(2) Immediate enrollment of all authorized members, numbering of their armbands to prevent misrepresentation, and disarming those not entitled to serve as members of the FFI.
(3) Control of arms at local headquarters and authorization for the use thereof only on authorized missions.

Keep in mind that these were loyal free French citizens desiring to offer some level of a constabulary in the wake of the German defeat in France. The US forbade civilians from possessing arms unless they were members of the recognized FFI. The Free French government did not oppose this.

In post WWII Belgium and Luxembourg:

http://www.army.mil/cmh/books/wwii/civaff/ch27.htm#b4

EISENHOWER THE RESISTANCE GROUPS TO DISARM
[Eisenhower Order of the Day, 29 Sep 44, Summary of Belgian Press Opinion, 3 Oct 44, SHAEF files, G-5, 17.02, SHAEF Mission to Belgium, Final Rpt, pt. I]
The hour of combat has thus passed for most of you as soldiers of the resistance troops. This does not necessarily mean that your services are no longer necessary. The war has been carried into enemy territory and if your government orders you to continue the struggle as soldiers of the
regular armed Belgian forces, I shall be proud to have you again under my command. In the meantime, in my capacity of Supreme Commander, I desire that it shall be made known to members of the resistance groups that those who are no longer in combat or required by orders of Allied military leaders as guards or for other military duties can not do better to aid the military effort than by giving up their arms to their authorities and by waiting for instructions as to the manner in which they can take part in the struggle to come.

So, Eisenhower disarmed the resistance. Was he violating their inalienable right to possess weapons of war upon the cessation of hostilities?

Some excerpts from the US Constabulary in post WWII Germany:

"The civil affairs detachments of the 1st European Civil Affairs Regiment (ECAR ) , which had come through France with First Army, inaugurated military government in Germany, beginning with D8B1 at Roetgen. They were integrated detachments, each having one British officer, and were scheduled to be withdrawn and reorganized into military government teams which would be exclusively American. The procedure was the same everywhere, as it was to be throughout Germany. First came the posting of the Supreme Commander's proclamation and the ordinances. Here a temporary hitch had developed. SHAEF had sent out the proclamations on 10 September but had to withdraw them promptly for revision when Washington raised objections to the language. Until the first week of October, 12th Army Group substituted a "Notice to the Population" announcing the occupation.2 The second step was to find the Buergermeister (mayor) or, if he could not be found or was obviously a Nazi, appoint one and thereby establish a link to the population.
Next came a series of security actions. The first was to collect weapons, ammunition, and explosives in civilian possession and confiscate radio transmitters and other means of communicating with the enemy, including pigeons. The orders to surrender prohibited items were followed by house-to-house searches, which in fought-over areas frequently turned up sizable collections of arms that the civilians had not turned in, probably more out of fear than malice. For convenience and for security, the civilians also had to be kept out of the way of the tactical troops."

"The Germans were conquered and their property was "liberated." Looting had become something of an art. Soldiers stationed themselves outside military government offices and intercepted civilians bringing in weapons."

And before you claim that weapon turn-ins were the norm:

http://cgsc.leavenworth.army.mil/carl/download/csipubs/gott_mobility.pdf

Squadrons were set up throughout Germany to conduct raids on suspected illegal activities, which included contraband weapons:

"Each squadron was to form four search teams that would enter each building. There they would locate the building leader and hand him instructions written in Polish telling him to assemble all women and children in one room and instruct the men to stay in their own rooms. An officer, with witnesses present, would frisk the women for weapons and large items evident by sight or light touch. When this was completed the troopers would frisk the men and thoroughly search the rooms for weapons and contraband. Troopers would take any prisoners to a screening center that was run by eight men and 10 guards under the squadron intelligence officer."

The history of disarming civilian populations to quell resistance to the establishment of a new civil authority is a long one. One in which the United States has long played a role. When the possessors of these weapons include insurgents that oppose the formation of a civil authority, especially one that is predicated on military defeat culminating in unconditional surrender, weapon confiscation has always become the requisite to accomplish the end goal.

Among the many reasons for civilian disarmament was the desire for retribution by many civilians in countries foremerly occupied by the Germans in avenging wrongs that had been foisted upon them. This occurs during most liberations of occupied countries and even in somewhat homogenous countries like Germany (post WWII). Your belief does not account for the political realities of such events, among others.

Your idealism is admirable, out of context. However, in the context of history, it falls a bit short.
 
Now it's "Youtube". :rolleyes:

The inability to articulate your position is becoming apparent. :p

If you truly believe the FBI (circa Dan Rather) was responsible, do you think it is time to vote from the rooftops? :D

Did they bring down the towers in 2001, also? :eek:

What is your position, anyway?
 
let the Iraqis sort things out for themselves.
That would be really intelligent, and it would surely end the blood bath! :rolleyes:
I can see you have the unselfish French mentality... power to the people?
What a joke... :mad:
Is there really a way out quickly?
OF COURSE THERE IS!...

But America is no longer allowed to win a war! Liberal bleeding-hearts won't let it happen.
They think war is just peacetime in disguise.
The war, like in Vietnam, will drag on and on, and they will blame everyone, and everything, but themselves!

When we win a war... we make friends like Japan and Germany and even France and Italy...

When we lose... we get disrespected by Venezuelan, Cuban and Iranian Dictators and even airplane loads of Muslim Imams... :p :barf:

When you diddle around with a bully... he keeps coming back for more of your lunch money...

Kick his a$$ really bad... and he won't be a problem anymore...

Oh!... But wait!...That would make too much sense... :cool:
 
i like how people can justify the iraq war by saying that our president is just following up on his promise to rid the world of terrorists, evil doers etc. I do like prez bush but have mixed feelings about him, and if hes out to stop all the terrorists and wmd, why not goto north korea? is it just me or did he tip toe around that one, and didnt quite jump in like the force that he had for iraq. I know were not pushing religions onto those people in iraq, it was just food for thought.
 
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