Is there any reason to use a full metal jacket in self defense?

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Bernie Lomax said:
I said, pretty much any type of bullet will produce an instant, guaranteed stop the more powerful rifle calibers. Go back and read my original post.
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Yep, that's what he's talking about. And that's totally incorrect: No round from any conventional firearm is an "instead, guaranteed stop". There are plenty of cases of people being shot with full-power rifle rounds and continuing to fight. I'm astounded that you're continuing to argue this point.
 
The wounding rationale for bullet design is probably an urban myth. It cannot be sourced. There are references that a wounded soldier takes more care but designing bullets for such has not be found in any reputable source. Yep, old General Bullbelly said - blah, blah. Never in a design specification.
 
Bernie Lomax said:
I said, pretty much any type of bullet will produce an instant, guaranteed stop the more powerful rifle calibers. Go back and read my original post.
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I assumed that you would understand the context of your own post, besides the fact that I included that part of your post in my original quote.

It's nonsense.
 
[OK, I'll bite. A bullet carrying 2400 ft-lbs of energy (that's probably about as much as a speeding mack truck) isn't going to stop someone because it's FMJ instead of hollow point?/QUOTE]

Unless that bullet stops in the target, it is not delivering 2400 ft/lbs of energy to it.

I have seen deer struck by FMJ bullets which punched right through like a pencil ..... did not even slow them down.

Besides that, it is not energy that kills- it is destruction of vital tissues.

Kinetic enegry can cause damage ..... but if a FMJ does not yaw/tumble or stike some solid bone, it won't deliver much energy ...... it'll pass through without even slowing down all that much.
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The use of FMJ ammunition for military purposes was standardized by the various Hague Conventions-cf. the controversy about the British using "dum-dum" bullets and later the 200 gr RNL for the No. 2 Mk I revolver. I do not have the documentation in front of me but the "shoot to create a casualty" doctrine has been around since at least WWI and probably long before.
IMHO the use of FMJ and lead bullets for SD began to decline when drug use became more prevalent.
 
The biggest problem I see with FMJ bullets is that you really need to be aware of what is BEHIND your target
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Hmm, what about the ones that missed their intended target? do they magically disappear? the myths here are riduclous. FMJ works just about 100% of the time in semi autos, it feeds reliably, why would anyone choose to use something that may cause a jam?

I too remember the 70s and them lead nosed "hollow points". They sucked so they added a semi metal jacket which helped them feed better.

In a SD situation I want 100% reliability in my side arm and for that I use full metal jacket in all of my 1911's and no amount of talk or thread posts will ever convice me to do otherwise.

Shoot thru walls? and I again ask, what about the misses cause you are not going to be on target 100% in any fire fight. Those that think they will have never been in any fire fight of any kind. Best get some help there.

We at tgimes have animals die on the farm, we call the rendering plant they come get it in 2 days or so. We take advantage and shoot these carcasses with the loads we carry, dig em out see what it did to the animals body. FMJ works best every time for penetration and thats what I want.
 
I once read something by Clint Smith where he said he carried ball ammo in his 1911. He said that it produced a nearly half inch hole and fed reliably. I think if I carried a 1911 I would probably do the same.
 
Joe_Pike said:
I once read something by Clint Smith where he said he carried ball ammo in his 1911. He said that it produced a nearly half inch hole and fed reliably. I think if I carried a 1911 I would probably do the same.
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I have good respect for Clint Smith, but if you are carrying a gun that will only reliably feed ball ammunition and you have or can get other guns that reliably feed JHPs, that latter move is the right one. Plenty of 1911s will feed and shoot JHP ammunition just fine.
 
Someone posted a link to an FBI testings when we were talking about 10mm and that famous battle that made the FBI rethink their ammo. They tested the 9mm, 10mm and the 45acp. They used the 10% ordinance gel and with several barriers such as cloth, leather, glass and metal.

Their conclusions? Here's what they got as the best penetrations of the lot:

9mm - 147 grain subsonic HP

10mm - 180 grain subsonic HP

and

45acp - 180 grain subsonic HP (yep, not 230)

They say 12" of penetration is minimum and 18" is ideal. Why subsonic? High velocity causes the HP to expand too soon before reaching the vitals.

Because of that I took out the Hornady 40sw 165 FTXs and loaded my Rem 180 HTPs in my Sig. :p
 
The biggest problem I see with FMJ bullets is that you really need to be aware of what is BEHIND your target.

That being said, the point of using a gun in self defense is to incapacitate the BG, not kill. And a FMJ bullet definitely has a greater chance of wounding not killing, compared to a hollow point.
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Regardless of bullet type, you need to know what is behind your target.

As for the object of SD being to incapacitate and not kill and that FMJ will do that better is rather bogus. The goal of SD may be STOP your attacker, but whether that is because the attacker gives up or is dead doesn't really matter to the goal of accomplishing a STOP.

I first heard this "wounding takes 3 people out of the fight" nonsense as an offered justification for the adoption of the small bore (5.56mm) round for general service use.

And while it seems logical, and actually does happen, sometimes, its not a general truth. It only (sort of) applies when you are fighting an organized army, who fights in the European style. And even then, it doesn't really apply in the manner they imply.
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The only people that seem to be affected by the are US soldiers. A single wounded solder can result in many being taken out of the fight when it comes to us.
 
I stagger the rounds for my Tomcat. A 60gr. Silvertip in the pipe, another one on top of the magazine, a 71gr. FMJ and so on. I have fired about 1,000 Silvertips and twice that many FMJ's through it without a jam. I bought some 60gr. Hornady hollowpoints but I haven't shot enough of them yet to give me the same level of confidence that the Winchesters do. My main carry guns are 357 mag. so I lean more toward hollowpoints for them, although I do have a couple of SP's in the speed loaders.
 
Full metal jacket is the same ammo I use for the range or self defense, I dont train with hollow points, I think it's best to use what you shoot most often

you already know it's reliable, plus the military has been using full metal jacket and it seems to do the job.
 
mr bolo, the difference is that the Army don't have to worry about collateral damages using full metal jackets. Here, for SD is risky to use them.

But I agree with you as they practically guaranteed penetration.
 
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