Is there any reason to use a full metal jacket in self defense?

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Perhaps jimbob86, but with modern ammunition I really don't think penetration is an issue if you're choosing said ammunition carefully or shooting something like .25acp. If the bullet retains its weight it should penetrate unless it mushrooms super wide.

I won't get into shooting through auto glass or car doors, hard to imagine a self defense scenario involving those factors.
 
The biggest problem I see with FMJ bullets is that you really need to be aware of what is BEHIND your target.

That being said, the point of using a gun in self defense is to incapacitate the BG, not kill. And a FMJ bullet definitely has a greater chance of wounding not killing, compared to a hollow point.
 
I won't get into shooting through auto glass or car doors, hard to imagine a self defense scenario involving those factors.

If you're stopped at the side of the road changing a flat tire and you're attacked you might have to shoot through a raised trunk lid, glass hatchback, raised engine hood, or through the sheetmetal of an open car door.
 
I have/use only plated bullet cuz that's what im reloading. On one of my cz, I shot over 15k rds of those, went to training with them so thats what im using. Use what you are familiar with.
 
Hollow points are better in every way aren't they?

Depends. Once you get into some of the more powerful rifle calibers (for example 7.62 NATO or .30-06) pretty much any type of bullet will produce an instant, guaranteed stop. So buying hollow or soft points on human targets is just wasting your money. If you have one of those rifles for HD, buy the cheapo FMJ stuff and spend the money you save on even more cheapo FMJ ammo to use for target practice.

Of course, you might be only talking about handguns, but you didn't state that in the post and this isn't in posted the handgun forum, so if you are, that's your bad.
 
Interesting subject matter. Had a very similar discussion recently which included two active LEO's working in a high crime area and two (me included) retired Federal Agents. All of us were or are issued hollow point rounds for duty ammo. In our discussion, the infamous California shootout came into play where the BG's wore body armor. Seems they were and are not the only ones with body armor becoming readily available. In colder climates, the BG's also seem to layer up with layers of clothing, something we in the hot south don't really think much about. The four of us reached an agreement that when off duty, we loaded our magazines so that we had a hollow point in the chamber, the next round was also a hollow point and the third round was ball, FMJ. Reasoning was the first two rounds were double tap which were center mass shots. If the threat were not stopped, the third shot would be one to the head. We thought that given the mass of the bullet and the velocity, we would get better penetration to the head. We may or may not be in agreement with your thinking but we professionals, past and present like this combination and all our off duty magazines are now loaded in this fashion. Oh, did I mention we all carry 1911's pretty much all of the time.
 
Depends. Once you get into some of the more powerful rifle calibers (for example 7.62 NATO or .30-06) pretty much any type of bullet will produce an instant, guaranteed stop. So buying hollow or soft points on human targets is just wasting your money. If you have one of those rifles for HD, buy the cheapo FMJ stuff and spend the money you save on even more cheapo FMJ ammo to use for target practice.

Dunno 'bout that ..... I've seen deer centerpunched with multiple rounds that seemed totally unaffected for several seconds to minutes ...... from 7.62x39 to .270WIN .... there are no magic bullets, and NO guarantees.

That said, IME, expanding bullets work better than FMJ, and bullets with more KE work better than those with less .....

The target practice idea is a good one- placement is paramount, but in a situation where time is short and the target unco-operative, placement is going to be a much harder thing to achieve than in a flat range, take all the time you want paper punching session.

My advice? Practice with the most economical round you can make. Buy premium bullets for more ...... social work.
 
There are three basic situations in which I would advocate the use of FMJ or other non-expanding ammunition over a hollowpoint:

1. You are using a small caliber like .25 Auto or .32 Auto which cannot penetrate adequately with expanding ammunition. To my mind, adequate penetration is more important than expansion. It seems that .380 Auto and Standard Pressure .38 Special are the dividing line between calibers best loaded with hollowpoints and those loaded with FMJ.

2. Your gun will not reliably function with hollowpoint ammunition. Reliability is obviously paramount so a gun full of FMJ's that works will always beat a gun full of hollowpoints that jams.

3. Hollowpoint ammunition is not easily available in the caliber that you're using. While this may sound odd at first, you might be surprised at how many people are relying on a gun that chambers a cartridge for which there are only one or two factory loadings available. I've rarely or never seen hollowpoint ammo in .30 Luger, .32 S&W Long, .32-20 Winchester, .38 S&W, 7.62x25 Tokarev, 7.62x38R Nagant, 7.63 Mauser, .38-40 Winchester, .44-40 Winchester, or 9mm Largo and, in my experience, those cartridges aren't all that rare. If a gun in that caliber is all you have, you've got to load it with something hollowpoint or not.
 
The target practice idea is a good one- placement is paramount, but in a situation where time is short and the target unco-operative, placement is going to be a much harder thing to achieve than in a flat range, take all the time you want paper punching session.

My advice? Practice with the most economical round you can make. Buy premium bullets for more ...... social work.

A couple weeks ago, I took a class (roger Phillips was the instructor), fight focus point shooting where you respond to an attack/bad guy which of course is very close to you, thats where point shooting techniques are important. It was/is an interesting concept.
 
many here are too young to remember, but until the 1970s, there was, essentially NO FACTORY HOLLOW POINT AMMO.

Super Vel paved the way, but it wasn't until a couple decades later that JHP ammo became the normal industry standard for common "duty" rounds.

Factory rounds for auto pistols were all FMJ, revolver rounds were nearly all lead bullets, although you could get jacketed ones (and even hollowpoints, sometimes) in magnum calibers.

If you wanted something else, you had to handload it.

Also, back in the days when the revolver was king (and it wasn't as long ago as some seem to think), a lot of police officers were forbidden to carry hollowpoints by their superiors. Seems they thought the sight of them was scary to the public...

Today, its a lot different. Modern hollowpoints have pretty much got the bugs worked out, of the bullet, anyway.

There is no reason to choose FMJ for self defense, over any other bullet choice. There are good, valid reasons to choose some other type over FMJ.

Again, there is no magic bullet, and ANY bullet that goes where it needs to go does the job. Quite simply, if it doesn't get where it needs to go, no bullet does the job.

A hollow point's performance expands the size of that "right place" SLIGHTLY.

Most of us think that small increase is a big advantage. It might be the difference between success and failure. But then again, it might not. The real advantage to the hollow point for self defense is that when it works as designed, it gives us a small advantage, and when it doesn't, we aren't any worse off than if we used FMJ ammo.
 
Bernie Lomax said:
Once you get into some of the more powerful rifle calibers (for example 7.62 NATO or .30-06) pretty much any type of bullet will produce an instant, guaranteed stop.

That is absolutely and completely, unarguably, unquestionably false. Completely absurd.
 
That is absolutely and completely, unarguably, unquestionably false. Completely absurd.

LOL.
Military ammo were more design to wound than kill right away, a wounded person will, most of the time, slow down/stop 2 others that will attend to their wounded friend.
 
That is absolutely and completely, unarguably, unquestionably false. Completely absurd.

OK, I'll bite. A bullet carrying 2400 ft-lbs of energy (that's probably about as much as a speeding mack truck) isn't going to stop someone because it's FMJ instead of hollow point? :rolleyes:
 
That's not what I said and it's not what you said.

You said
pretty much any type of bullet will produce an instant, guaranteed stop.

That statement is RIDICULOUS.

Hollow-points tend to do FAR more damage than FMJ/non-expanding bullets and even they are nowhere close to "an instant, guaranteed stop".

Unless it's a 120mm Abrams, there is no gun that can be accurately described to produce "an instant, guaranteed stop".
 
loic said:
Military ammo were more design to wound than kill right away, a wounded person will, most of the time, slow down/stop 2 others that will attend to their wounded friend.
That's simply a myth. I've heard that myth many, many times, but I've never seen any evidence to support it.

And it doesn't really make much sense anyway: A wounded person might get help from his buddies, but he might not. And -- more importantly -- a wounded person often can still fight back.

In combat, it makes more sense to kill the enemy than to simply wound them; that way they're permanently out of the fight. In the Marine Corps, I never heard anyone say, "One shot, one wound".
 
many here are too young to remember, but until the 1970s, there was, essentially NO FACTORY HOLLOW POINT AMMO.
I just barely recall that.
I first got into shooting in the 1970's & there were a fair number of hollow point bullets available for reloading.
I recall there were also a lot, if not more, jacketed soft points.


But - yes, essentially what you're getting at is true.

Hollow point ammunition is fairly new - in the grand scheme of things.
 
That's simply a myth. I've heard that myth many, many times, but I've never seen any evidence to support it.

And it doesn't really make much sense anyway: A wounded person might get help from his buddies, but he might not. And -- more importantly -- a wounded person often can still fight back.

In combat, it makes more sense to kill the enemy than to simply wound them; that way they're permanently out of the fight. In the Marine Corps, I never heard anyone say, "One shot, one wound".

I would think that a lot more soldiers died bleeding out that killed on the spot by one shot.
 
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loic said:
I would think that a lot more soldiers died bleeding out that killed on the spot by one shot.
That's certainly true, but it's completely irrelevant: When you shoot someone in combat, the purpose is to kill them. Even if they're not killed instantly and instead they're just wounded, that doesn't mean the intent was to only wound them.
 
Military ammo were more design to wound than kill right away, a wounded person will, most of the time, slow down/stop 2 others that will attend to their wounded friend.

I first heard this "wounding takes 3 people out of the fight" nonsense as an offered justification for the adoption of the small bore (5.56mm) round for general service use.

And while it seems logical, and actually does happen, sometimes, its not a general truth. It only (sort of) applies when you are fighting an organized army, who fights in the European style. And even then, it doesn't really apply in the manner they imply.

They will tell you that it takes 2 guys to carry the wounded guy off, and so, 3 are out of the fight. It doesn't. Organized armies who place the common European (Western) value on their soldier's individual lives have dedicated medics and stretcher bearers, who were never part of the fight in the first place. The most you get is wounded soldier (disabling wound, only) out of the fight, and maybe the buddy who watches over him/leads help to him, until the medics get there. This is usually a very short time, and then, the buddy is back in the fight.

Armies who fight in the Asian fashion put a lower priority on helping the wounded, and what effort they expend is more often after the fight.

And rebels/resistance/freedom fighters, what ever version of enemy that isn't set up with an organized medical corps aren't even able to do that. SO, the line about with a wound, you get 3 for 1 is just wishful thinking.

They also don't like to talk about the circular trap that comes with going to a light weight small caliber round. They tell you all about how you can carry more rounds, and so be better off. They don't tell you about how you need more rounds because each individual round isn't as powerful...

The reasons the military still uses FMJ ammunition are simple. First, is the continued lip service to the Hague Accords (often mistakenly referred to as the Geneva Convention), which held to the belief that FMJ ammo reduces suffering in war. It's a gentleman's agreement from an earlier age, and we never even signed it! We do, by our own agreement, follow it.

That's the "official" or "legal" reason. The real world practical reason is equally simple, it is because nothing else is as cost effective in accomplishing the mission. FMJ ammo is the most "durable" kind, and the most reliable feeding in automatic weapons. And, it costs the least. If there was anything else that out did FMJ in these categories, the world's militaries would use it. Count on that.

Remember the object of the military is to accomplish the mission. Their choices of what to use, and how to use it are NOT the same as the best choices for the survival and protection of the individual.

We want a round with good stopping potential, when we defend ourselves. Military priorities are different. They lean heavily towards what will deliver victory, not as much individual survival. Survival is the job of the individual.

Self defense and combat have some things in common, but are not remotely the same thing.
 
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