Frank Ettin
Administrator
Your mindset and bearing are more important. The criminal isn't scared of the gun. He's scared of you, if he believes that you will use the gun. If he doesn't believe that you will use it, the gun is a non-issue.
Is the "scariness factor" important for an SD gun?
- Thread starter raftman
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I couldn't help but laugh at this because it reminded me of an old joke...
Once upon a time, there was an officer of the Royal Navy named Captain Bravado who showed no fear when facing his enemies. One day, while sailing the Seven Seas, his lookout spotted a pirate ship approaching, and the crew became frantic. Captain Bravado bellowed, "Bring me my red shirt!"
The first mate quickly retrieved the captain's red shirt, and while wearing the brightly colored frock, the Captain led his crew into battle and defeated the mighty pirates. That evening, all the men sat around on deck recounting the triumph of earlier. One of them asked the Captain, "Sir, why did you call for your red shirt before battle?"
The Captain replied, "If I were to be wounded in the attack, the shirt would not show my blood. Thus, you men would continue to fight, unafraid." All of the men sat and marveled at the courage of such a manly man's man. As dawn came the next morning, the lookout spotted not one, not two, but TEN pirate ships approaching. The crew stared in worshipful silence at the Captain and waited for his usual orders.
Captain Bravado gazed with steely eyes upon the vast armada arrayed against his ship, and without fear, turned and calmly shouted, "Bring me my brown pants!"
Kreyzhorse
New member
I guess I can agree that a bigger bore gun is likely scarier to look down the barrel of than a small bore .22
However, I don't discount the fact that being on the wrong end of a gun, any gun, is pretty scary. I doubt the results of pulling my 1911 in a SD situation would be any different than pulling my Ruger LCP .380 would be.
However, I don't discount the fact that being on the wrong end of a gun, any gun, is pretty scary. I doubt the results of pulling my 1911 in a SD situation would be any different than pulling my Ruger LCP .380 would be.
I went with "Not at all important"
I feel this way since many crimes are done with toy guns,and alot with just saying "I have a Gun" while keeping your hand in your jacket.
I know if i had one pulled on me id certainly not think to look at the barrel size and see if it was a small enough caliber to risk getting shot with.
But if your gonna do that take the orange tip off the end for best results.
I feel this way since many crimes are done with toy guns,and alot with just saying "I have a Gun" while keeping your hand in your jacket.
I know if i had one pulled on me id certainly not think to look at the barrel size and see if it was a small enough caliber to risk getting shot with.
But if your gonna do that take the orange tip off the end for best results.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
MLeake said:
I think that there's a bit of an assumption there....
If the BG has seen my gun it's probably too late for him to be scared. Why?
1)If I'm in my home then Mr BG has already beat down multiple doors, ignored the blaring alarm and ignored multiple warnings. When Mr BG gets through that last door, or even almost through, then it IS too late. I will not wait any longer.
2)If I'm out on the street and Mr BG has done something that causes me to draw my gun then there is still a chance I will not use it.... but it's all up to Mr BG. He decides to get shot or not and if I've drawn my gun he doesn't have a lot of time left to make that decision.
Now, in situation 2, the BG does have time to withdraw (probably). However, I have SERIOUS doubts that the shininess or size of my firearm is going to be the deciding factor, or even a deciding factor.
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LouisianaMan
New member
A thoughtful & thought-provoking question, Raftman. . .
. . .And I agree with the excellent feedback offered by MLeake. You're not asking for a panacea, and MLeake isn't offering one. Rather, you're both trying to wrestle with the idea of armed confrontation that may be stopped short of the application of lethal force. As such, anyone who owns a gun and envisions using it for SD/HD should be interested in the question & the possible answers.
I tend to think of armed HD in terms of a spectrum of possibilities. At the one extreme is the situation resolved by the mere discovery of the homeowner's presence, followed by the criminal's immediate surrender or retreat. Great outcome! At the other extreme is the bullet sponge--the type that Ayoob likes to call a "Golem"--who advances inexorably through a hail of gunfire like your worst nightmare. This is the guy none of us wants to encounter, and he is the inspiration for lots of gun & ammo sales & practice, practice, PRACTICE!
Most HD encounters tend more towards the former extreme, i.e. less-than-lethal outcomes. With that in mind, I understand your question is not aimed at the "Golem" situation, but at the more typical spread of possibilities. I would say that any confrontation in which the criminal assesses his possibilities and makes a rational decision is going to be influenced by lots of factors: is homeowner big & tough-looking? Determined in voice and bearing? Small & shaky? How good are the odds of being shot or shot at if I fight/flee, etc.? Can I fast-talk this person while leaving, believing they won't shoot me in the back as I'm retreating? etc. etc.
Under such circumstances, some criminals will get an opportunity to look at the gun, and may think about it. Small? big? etc. I can't prove it, but there's no doubt in my mind that the bigger the gun appears, the more lethal the BG assumes it will be. If he's open to being swayed by that element of the equation, then he may be swayed more by my hand-filling .45LC stainless Mountain Gun than by my 2" bbl. mod. 30-1 in .32SWL. If the latter is shoved in his face, it probably appears pretty terrifying, but 30 feet across the house it probably looks a lot more "beatable."
If the situation were reversed, and I rounded the corner to face a BG holding a gun, I know my pucker factor would be influenced instantaneously by all the factors mentioned above, or at least as many as I could mentally process. If I had a chance to see & mentally process "what's he carrying?", I would far rather face a .32 than a .45--much less a shotgun, much less a double-barrel 12 ga. I've programmed myself to resist, but at some point I would conclude it's better not to, e.g. waking up with shotgun in my face. Some criminals also plan to resist as their default setting, but nonetheless have their own threshold & won't resist if it's crossed. I have to believe that somewhere in those endless possibilities there are quite a few who'll run or surrender rather than face a gun that meets their idea of that threshold.
Sorry for long post!
. . .And I agree with the excellent feedback offered by MLeake. You're not asking for a panacea, and MLeake isn't offering one. Rather, you're both trying to wrestle with the idea of armed confrontation that may be stopped short of the application of lethal force. As such, anyone who owns a gun and envisions using it for SD/HD should be interested in the question & the possible answers.
I tend to think of armed HD in terms of a spectrum of possibilities. At the one extreme is the situation resolved by the mere discovery of the homeowner's presence, followed by the criminal's immediate surrender or retreat. Great outcome! At the other extreme is the bullet sponge--the type that Ayoob likes to call a "Golem"--who advances inexorably through a hail of gunfire like your worst nightmare. This is the guy none of us wants to encounter, and he is the inspiration for lots of gun & ammo sales & practice, practice, PRACTICE!
Most HD encounters tend more towards the former extreme, i.e. less-than-lethal outcomes. With that in mind, I understand your question is not aimed at the "Golem" situation, but at the more typical spread of possibilities. I would say that any confrontation in which the criminal assesses his possibilities and makes a rational decision is going to be influenced by lots of factors: is homeowner big & tough-looking? Determined in voice and bearing? Small & shaky? How good are the odds of being shot or shot at if I fight/flee, etc.? Can I fast-talk this person while leaving, believing they won't shoot me in the back as I'm retreating? etc. etc.
Under such circumstances, some criminals will get an opportunity to look at the gun, and may think about it. Small? big? etc. I can't prove it, but there's no doubt in my mind that the bigger the gun appears, the more lethal the BG assumes it will be. If he's open to being swayed by that element of the equation, then he may be swayed more by my hand-filling .45LC stainless Mountain Gun than by my 2" bbl. mod. 30-1 in .32SWL. If the latter is shoved in his face, it probably appears pretty terrifying, but 30 feet across the house it probably looks a lot more "beatable."
If the situation were reversed, and I rounded the corner to face a BG holding a gun, I know my pucker factor would be influenced instantaneously by all the factors mentioned above, or at least as many as I could mentally process. If I had a chance to see & mentally process "what's he carrying?", I would far rather face a .32 than a .45--much less a shotgun, much less a double-barrel 12 ga. I've programmed myself to resist, but at some point I would conclude it's better not to, e.g. waking up with shotgun in my face. Some criminals also plan to resist as their default setting, but nonetheless have their own threshold & won't resist if it's crossed. I have to believe that somewhere in those endless possibilities there are quite a few who'll run or surrender rather than face a gun that meets their idea of that threshold.
Sorry for long post!
What we're really talking about here is situations where goblins panic and run away so fast, you never get the chance to pull the trigger. It often happens before you can even clear leather, sometimes before you can even finish grabbing the grip.
A lot of things go into this "chase off" scenario. A scary (or, yeah, CRAZY) gun can help. But I would argue that a reliable gun of at least a decent caliber is as critical if nor moreso - and your practice and familiarity with the gun even more critical than that.
Because it's all about self confidence. If you look scared, a predator gets aggressive. (Including animal predators!!!) If on the other hand you draw with a steady hand, dead calm, with a face that says "OK, something is about to die now", that's the most terrifying thing of all and the thing most likely to induce a chase-off.
In the same circumstances, there's guys who will look completely terrifying with a Keltec .32 and others who look wildly incompetent with a SuperRedhawk.
The gun ain't the whole story.
Anything you can do to improve the odds of a chase-off happening is moral and supportable in court, so long as it doesn't reduce anybody's safety. You can actually articulate to a jury that yeah, my gun is set up to be as terrifying as possible and as big as I can comfortably pack, because I'd rather chase off an attacker than shoot him.
And they'll buy it, if you've done everything else right. (Shoot the wrong dude and it's a whole 'nuther thing, NOW a funky/scary gun could maybe bite you.)
I've chased off aggressive dogs with a knife once, aggressive humans with (my) knife twice...once VERY aggressive, downright homicidal. If it can be done with a knife, it can be done with a gun.
Finally, NONE OF THIS IS ABOUT BLUFF. M'kay? Paradoxically, a chase-off is far MORE likely if you're stone-cold determined to kill.
There are however crazies who simply won't quit no matter what. In some cases it's not even enough to kill them if they die later, you have to physically break them to stop 'em. You can never discount this happening.
A lot of things go into this "chase off" scenario. A scary (or, yeah, CRAZY) gun can help. But I would argue that a reliable gun of at least a decent caliber is as critical if nor moreso - and your practice and familiarity with the gun even more critical than that.
Because it's all about self confidence. If you look scared, a predator gets aggressive. (Including animal predators!!!) If on the other hand you draw with a steady hand, dead calm, with a face that says "OK, something is about to die now", that's the most terrifying thing of all and the thing most likely to induce a chase-off.
In the same circumstances, there's guys who will look completely terrifying with a Keltec .32 and others who look wildly incompetent with a SuperRedhawk.
The gun ain't the whole story.
Anything you can do to improve the odds of a chase-off happening is moral and supportable in court, so long as it doesn't reduce anybody's safety. You can actually articulate to a jury that yeah, my gun is set up to be as terrifying as possible and as big as I can comfortably pack, because I'd rather chase off an attacker than shoot him.
And they'll buy it, if you've done everything else right. (Shoot the wrong dude and it's a whole 'nuther thing, NOW a funky/scary gun could maybe bite you.)
I've chased off aggressive dogs with a knife once, aggressive humans with (my) knife twice...once VERY aggressive, downright homicidal. If it can be done with a knife, it can be done with a gun.
Finally, NONE OF THIS IS ABOUT BLUFF. M'kay? Paradoxically, a chase-off is far MORE likely if you're stone-cold determined to kill.
There are however crazies who simply won't quit no matter what. In some cases it's not even enough to kill them if they die later, you have to physically break them to stop 'em. You can never discount this happening.
Willie Lowman
New member
To comment on what LouisianaMan said about our theoretical bad guy asking himself "what is he carrying," a recognizable or famous gun would probably be much higher on the scary scale. I am not saying that I think we should be relying on the scare factor but every body knows what a Desert Eagle looks like. It's reputation precedes it.
I was talking guns with a co-worker last year and he mentioned that he had a Tec-9. When I told him I had a low opinion of Tec-9s he said "I know they are junk, but where I am from that gun gets respect."
Best way I can sum it up.
I was talking guns with a co-worker last year and he mentioned that he had a Tec-9. When I told him I had a low opinion of Tec-9s he said "I know they are junk, but where I am from that gun gets respect."
Best way I can sum it up.
The bullets are pretty scary in and of themselves. The gun being "scary" has never even been a thought for me... Though the universal "get the f**k out of my house" language of cycling a shotgun would be scary to hear in the dark in the middle of someone's house... I'm not ashamed to admit: I'd probably pee myself a little if I heard that...
Regardless of your "bearing", your "attitude", etc... I do believe that if (big if perhaps) a BG has/takes the time to "eyeball" your weapon, that it can make a difference.
Tell some BG to "STOP" while pointing a "fits in your pocket, and is mostly hidden by your hand" gun at them, or tell them to "STOP" while pointing a 12 gauge shotgun or an AR with a thirty round magazine at them.
People are very visual. We react to visual stimulus to a very high degree. (Just like the sound of a shotgun racking being an auditory stimulus that evokes a pretty predictable response in certain situations; could be, first you say it and then you do it.)
While I don't think that this is the "end all" of self-defense, I certainly think that it can be a very real factor in deterrence.
Tell some BG to "STOP" while pointing a "fits in your pocket, and is mostly hidden by your hand" gun at them, or tell them to "STOP" while pointing a 12 gauge shotgun or an AR with a thirty round magazine at them.
People are very visual. We react to visual stimulus to a very high degree. (Just like the sound of a shotgun racking being an auditory stimulus that evokes a pretty predictable response in certain situations; could be, first you say it and then you do it.)
While I don't think that this is the "end all" of self-defense, I certainly think that it can be a very real factor in deterrence.
rodwhaincamo
New member
What is important is that it functions and has adequate ammo. If producing a firearm in itself can diffuse the situation I'm not so sure the "scariness" of it has much to do with it. Either producing it will diffuse or escalate the situation. Watching Gangland the hardcore thugs don't seem much to care. I think it depends on how rational the adversary is. Some either think they are bulletproof or just don't care. Maybe even thrilled??? Maybe even by producing a weapon it could push the altercation in the wrong direction.
I agree that the "scary factor" plays at least a small role in a home defense situation...and perhaps not that much while in the great outdoors.
I keep a shotgun, AR-15, and a full-sized 1911 within reach in my bedroom at night. If I should awake to a noise inside my house, I go for the shotgun. Just the sound of the pump action would scare the crap out of anyone and if one had just the least little bit of a tiny brain, they would not want to mess with the shotgun. Of course I would have the 1911 tucked into my waistband as I would not want to discharge the shotgun inside my house, especially after we just remodeled the place and put in all new furniture...my wife would kill me right after I took out the perp.
A hostile situation on the street makes no difference to what the BG is up against because he is not considering the consequences of his actions and a big or small weapon will most likely not influence him one way or the other. If someone is coming at you, they are either on drugs, or maybe being controlled by their out of control emotion with no brain interference, or showing off to their gangbanger buddies. This is a lose - lose situation for them as long as you have a weapon that is capable of pumping lead into their body. The scary factor plays no role here.
I keep a shotgun, AR-15, and a full-sized 1911 within reach in my bedroom at night. If I should awake to a noise inside my house, I go for the shotgun. Just the sound of the pump action would scare the crap out of anyone and if one had just the least little bit of a tiny brain, they would not want to mess with the shotgun. Of course I would have the 1911 tucked into my waistband as I would not want to discharge the shotgun inside my house, especially after we just remodeled the place and put in all new furniture...my wife would kill me right after I took out the perp.
A hostile situation on the street makes no difference to what the BG is up against because he is not considering the consequences of his actions and a big or small weapon will most likely not influence him one way or the other. If someone is coming at you, they are either on drugs, or maybe being controlled by their out of control emotion with no brain interference, or showing off to their gangbanger buddies. This is a lose - lose situation for them as long as you have a weapon that is capable of pumping lead into their body. The scary factor plays no role here.
That sounds like pure silliness to me. Why defend yourself with a handgun when you have a shotgun right there? Why waste time making useless noise with an empty shotgun when you could be grabbing the handgun? The last thing I'd worry about is putting some buckshot into a wall or a piece of furniture when my life is on the line. Besides, I'm not leaving my room anyway. I'm just keeping the BG from coming in. Anything that misses him is going through the door of our linen closet.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
I'm with Sport45.
The reason I say it doesn't matter is because in a home situation they're never going to see it. I won't go after them and if they're coming after me then I'm not waiting for them to get a good look at the gun.
Secondarily, if it's out on the street I really think "gun" is scary. I don't believe that shiny revolver, LCP, Glock or anything else is going to matter. Mr. BGs brain is going to scream "GUN!" and he's either going to run, surrender or fight.
The reason I say it doesn't matter is because in a home situation they're never going to see it. I won't go after them and if they're coming after me then I'm not waiting for them to get a good look at the gun.
Secondarily, if it's out on the street I really think "gun" is scary. I don't believe that shiny revolver, LCP, Glock or anything else is going to matter. Mr. BGs brain is going to scream "GUN!" and he's either going to run, surrender or fight.
I would agree with that. Additionally I had two nearly identical S&W .357 revolvers (one blued, one shiny stainless). When I wore the blued one on duty almost nobody ever commented. When I wore the stainless I would get "look at that CANNON" type comments once in a while.
So I think the "impressiveness" of a gun can be a factor, but not one you should depend on because the drunk, stoned, or insane don't care one whit if you point a .22 or a Howitzer at them.
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