Is the Mosin Nagant still worth it?

Gunplummer said:
The original post asked about using a Moisin Nagant to make a cheap sporter. I am not the one that started dishing out BS about the history of them. That is a pretty poor resume for spreading information about Russian rifles. One would never know it was the same person writing the first post and the last couple. As I thought, you have absolutely no experience with guns.The only redeeming point is you owe up to it. It is ridicules to put a Russian rifle in the same class as a 98' Mauser or .303 British when it comes to cheap deer guns, if you stick with open sights. The Mauser and .303 at least have a safety you don't have to fight with. So do the Carcano and Arisaka. The Mauser and Arisaka are easily scoped, and the Carcano is easily side mounted and you can bend the bolt enough to clear it. The Arisaka safety will work fine with the scope over the bore, but needs a bolt welded on for length. Russian guns? As is, they are usable. Been there. Done that. Build a CHEAP sporter? No. Stop whining because other people think you have junk. I collected Arisakas for years. I collected long and recurve bows. Talk about being looked down on. When I moved to a smaller place, I consigned it all to a major Auction House. I laughed all the way to the bank.

You don't like the Mosin, and you therefore cannot seem to accept that others might.

I don't have any issue with your views other than your ego leading you to insist that I know nothing.

Now you start personal attacks instead of backing up your contentions with facts.

You seem to think that others should take your opinion as gospel. That's the main issue I hold in contempt.

You accuse me of rudeness, and yet, you come across as quite pompous.

How about facts? Show me why the Mosin is inferior. WHY?

Josh
 
Is the Mosin Nagant still worth it?

Some of us feel they never were "worth it".

I have two. One is an absolutely pristine (looks unfired & unused) M38 that I paid $75 for, ages ago, the other is a good shape 91/30 that was given to me by a friend.

As a piece of my milsurp collection, they fit perfectly. As a practical deer rifle, they have serious drawbacks over many military bolt guns, and virtually all commercial deer rifles.

The design is OLD, and while robust, it is like many old designs over complex. The bolt is a virtual Chinese puzzle of parts, compared to the slightly newer 98 Mauser design.

Show me why the Mosin is inferior. WHY?

Inferior depends on what you are comparing it to. Compared to a mauser 98, there are a number of points where the MN is "inferior" in the sense of being more difficult to use, or more complicated. The safety is one of the more obvious points.

The MN is certainly not as flexible about many things as other designs. With a Mauser 98, Springfield 03, Enfield 17, even an Arisaka, you can build them into really nice sporters in a wide range of calibers. We used to do this, a lot. With a Moisin Nangant, like the SMLE, and some others, no matter what you do, you still have a MN. Just a slightly better one.

I've got or had Mauser 98s in calibers ranging from .22-250 to .458 Win Mag. Had a Siamese Mauser converted to a very nice .45-70.
I have an Arisaka converted to a .308Win that you have to look close to see it was an Arisaka.

You can make a nice sporter from A MN, but not as nice as other actions, simply because of what you are using as the base.

Its a valid piece of history. Its a poor choice for conversion work, especially now that the cost of a GI version has risen so much recently.
 
The facts are all in the very large quote you just posted. It is obvious I have owned or worked on a lot more Russian rifles than you have. I have even hunted with them. Where are your facts? Apparently all the people that get on here that actually CAN work on guns have experience that pales in comparison to your knowledge. What kind of "Facts" are left regarding the OP? OP means "Original Post".

Take a good look at the last post from 44 AMP.
 
Gunplummer said:
The facts are all in the very large quote you just posted. It is obvious I have owned or worked on a lot more Russian rifles than you have. I have even hunted with them. Where are your facts? Apparently all the people that get on here that actually CAN work on guns have experience that pales in comparison to your knowledge. What kind of "Facts" are left regarding the OP? OP means "Original Post".

As I said, you expect others to take your opinions as fact. You have a very large ego and a chip on your shoulder besides.

You do not want to back up your assertions with hard fact, and I'm therefore done arguing with you.

People are free to like what they like without your approval. I'm done with you.

Josh
 
44 AMP said:
Inferior depends on what you are comparing it to. Compared to a mauser 98, there are a number of points where the MN is "inferior" in the sense of being more difficult to use, or more complicated. The safety is one of the more obvious points.

The MN is certainly not as flexible about many things as other designs. With a Mauser 98, Springfield 03, Enfield 17, even an Arisaka, you can build them into really nice sporters in a wide range of calibers. We used to do this, a lot. With a Moisin Nangant, like the SMLE, and some others, no matter what you do, you still have a MN. Just a slightly better one.

I've got or had Mauser 98s in calibers ranging from .22-250 to .458 Win Mag. Had a Siamese Mauser converted to a very nice .45-70.
I have an Arisaka converted to a .308Win that you have to look close to see it was an Arisaka.

You can make a nice sporter from A MN, but not as nice as other actions, simply because of what you are using as the base.

Its a valid piece of history. Its a poor choice for conversion work, especially now that the cost of a GI version has risen so much recently.

I don't disagree with anything you've said. To my mind, a Mosin done up in the Finnish tradition is a valid hunting piece that you don't have to worry about beating up.

Improved open sights, two-stage trigger, shimming job on the action -- all is reversible (if that's a concern) and it all makes the Mosin much more shootable.

My contention was never that it was the preferred platform for high-precision builds, although it's certainly capable. A side-mounted PU 'scope mount which accepts modern 'scopes may be had, and it this works well.

My only sticking point is with folks who expect everyone to accept opinion as fact, and that's not you. Never has been so far as I recall.

Regards,

Josh
 
I admit I am curious why a scope for a Carcano would be "Easily side mounted", but the same wouldn't be true for a Mosin. The actions are not that different, and the Soviets sure scoped a lot of them that way in the PU and PEM Mounts.

The reality is that no surplus rifle is "Worth it" if you only goal is a cheap hunting rifle, when a Savage Axis can be had for ~$329.

Yes, a Mosin will take a little more work that a K98k, but even with the Mauser, the price of the scope mount system and the gunsmithing to mount it will surpass the price of the Savage pretty quickly, even if you use the original military barrel and hacksaw the stock to a rough sporter shape.

Like I said earlier:

Me said:
The Mosin supply has dried up considerably, and bottom of the line 91/30s are going for ~$250 these days. If you add the price of a sporter stock, scope mount (plus the labor to install it) and any other stuff you want to do, you will be well over the cost of the a Savage Axis/Ruger American/Rem 783, and the Axis/American/783 will be a better rifle in pretty much every measurable way. Manufacturing has come a long way in the past 70 years.

It will be lighter, more accurate, have a better trigger, be set up for a scope from the factory, and will shoot a caliber that ammo is available off the shelf at your local sporting goods store/Wal mart.

The days of modifying a military rifle to a sporter as a more economical way of getting a quality hunting rifle are gone. This made a lot of sense when they were a fraction of the price of the bottom of the line Remington or Winchester, and could be found by the barrel full in the local hardware store for $10. Those days are long gone.
 
mosin is good as-is. Make any changes and it's not worth it.

I know, I have an untouched pristine finnish m39, and a Civil Guard rifle that I put 2 Ruger American's worth of money into :-) Timney trigger, polymer sniper stock, mildot 10x scope, bipod. It will ring steel at 300m all day long but a modern gun in 308 would make more sense, be safer, lighter etc. But it's mine, unique, and has over 100 years of history behind it (the receiver is pre-1917).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
emcon5 said:
I admit I am curious why a scope for a Carcano would be "Easily side mounted", but the same wouldn't be true for a Mosin. The actions are not that different, and the Soviets sure scoped a lot of them that way in the PU and PEM Mounts.

The reality is that no surplus rifle is "Worth it" if you only goal is a cheap hunting rifle, when a Savage Axis can be had for ~$329.

Yes, a Mosin will take a little more work that a K98k, but even with the Mauser, the price of the scope mount system and the gunsmithing to mount it will surpass the price of the Savage pretty quickly, even if you use the original military barrel and hacksaw the stock to a rough sporter shape.

Thank you. I'm wondering about the scope as well, and those latter points are my thoughts too.

Regards,

Josh
 
Guggmeister said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Smith View Post
Show me why the Mosin is inferior. WHY?

It blows gases in your face with underpressured rounds or in case of a case rupture. Bad safety. Often unreliable magazine or sticky bolt.

Sir,

Thank you for pointing these out. They are points I'd like to address.

1. The bolt allowing blowback of gasses: I have not experienced this. I've loaded underpressure rounds in the past, and they seem to always vent around or behind the bolt head. I've never had one puff back in my face.

I had case ruptures in the neck and/or shoulder when was still shooting military surplus -- mostly with wartime manufacture, never with the better stuff like Czech -- and have likewise not experienced gas blowback.

I have not had a case head separation. Being a reloader, I probably will sooner or later, even though I check fired cases with a probe. However, I don't load hot so it'll probably be later. I'll most definitely check back in on that if/when it happens.

2. Bad safety: I'll give you this. It's worse for some folks than others; I work with my hands every day and I find it easy to use. However, a friend cannot. It's certainly not as easy to use as on, say, a Mauser-style bolt.

The Timney Trigger, of course, makes the stock safety a moot point. I personally do not prefer their trigger group as I prefer two-stage, but it can most definitely be had if it's a concern for the builder.

3. Magazine issues: These are mostly caused by poor fitment of the stock or interrupter during refurbishment. The 8mm version will not, of course, have many feeding issues like rimlock due to the nature of the round. I'd go so far as to say that it's a failure of the 7.62x54r round and not of the rifle's design. I get rimlock at times with my modern bolt-action .22 rimfire I use for squirrels.

A properly fitted Mosin-Nagant should have no magazine issues. That was a failure of the refurbishment process.

4. Sticky bolt. I've found that most sticky bolt is caused by improperly mated cocking piece to bolt body cam surfaces. Again, refurbishment is to blame. While some of it's cosmoline in the chambers, the rest of the reason needs to be addressed at the other end of the bolt.

These rifles were meant to be hand-fitted because they were designed in a time where hand fitting was cheap.

Here's a video of a hand-fitted Mosin. Please excuse the quality; I made it for a customer and only later decided to release it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_u_u4d8UYA

The same thing is true with the 1911 pistol, of which I'm also a fan. You cannot take two 1911s and expect to swap thumb safeties without a little fitting, same with the barrel, hammer sear, etc. When you do, you start having issues. This is one reason the military versions have them a bit out-of-spec, standing on the links and such when custom manufactures generally hand-fit the barrel to stand on the bottom lugs.

The Mosin is a product of its era, and has gotten a bad rep due to the influx of refurbished Mosin rifles here in the last 10-15 years.

Regards,

Josh
 
The only thing I want to customize on my Mosin is one of them there sights of yours Josh. ;) My rifle is a cream puff laminated pre war Hex Tula. Absolutely beautiful in my eyes and she set me back a whole 159 bucks. So NO, it is not "worth it" to me to hack her up. :D
 
Really? Ever wonder why nobody (With some sense) ever bends the Russian bolt? I still have my Carcano. I got it for nothing, a relative found it in a barn. I used a Savage 340 mount. It is a one piece stamping and was quite popular for that application. Easy to put on even with out a drill press. Had a Weaver K-3 laying around. Dirt cheap. I heated the bolt and bent it (Because it is long enough). Ready for the range.
Yes emcon5, it should kind of make you wonder why nobody did it before the cheap ammo poured in for the Russian rifles.
 
Deerslayer303 said:
The only thing I want to customize on my Mosin is one of them there sights of yours Josh. My rifle is a cream puff laminated pre war Hex Tula. Absolutely beautiful in my eyes and she set me back a whole 159 bucks. So NO, it is not "worth it" to me to hack her up.

Thank you. :o

My pet Mosin has this done:

1. "Classic Target" front sight
2. Two-stage trigger with roller bearing
3. Shimmed action
4. Stainless steel pillars

Surplus ammo pic from a couple years ago, no pillars at the time and I'm not 100% sure it even had its two-stage trigger yet:

March27sightinscored.jpg

Not bad for surplus.

More recent pic, but still a couple years old:

Trying some Hornady Match handloads...

Accurizing%20the%20Mosin%20Nagant%20test%20target.jpg


Playing with a hunting load, working it up:

50%20yard%204%20shot.jpg


Because I know someone will take issue with the shorter ranges I shot these at, I'll only say this:

My vision in my shooting eye is 20/60, and I shoot uncorrected.

I really should get back out and shoot another few targets with handloads, the two-stage trigger, and pillars added. Haven't had time. Maybe try it with my glasses.

I just don't see how a properly bedded Mosin really needs improved all that much. Proper inletting/bedding, a sight that you can regulate to your needs, and an improved trigger (even polishing of the original) are really all that's needed.

Some larger folks like yours truly get benefit from a recoil pad to add length, but it's really not 100% necessary as long as you weld the butt to your shoulder.

Just some thoughts.

Regards,

Josh
 
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deerslayer303 said:
Where's the video of just what is hand fitted?

Haven't had time to make one, though there are some accompanying the articles on the website. It's all free -- knowledge should be. Kinda' camera shy too.

Regards,

Josh
 
A shooter can jam a M91-30, 7.62x54R round, whereas the base of the round is jammed against the face of the open bolt at a cockeyed angle, that has the round out of the chamber pointed down roughly at a 45 degree angle. If the bolt is forced closed...the round could possibly have a out of battery explosion {OOB}, with the bullet exiting out of the base of the wooden forearm and possibly into the shooters support hand. I believe this kind of OOB mishap occurred with a former RSO at our range, with the bullet exciting his hand --- Though I can't verify it --- I did have this kind of jam twice with my M91-30's, but I never tried to force the bolt closed with that kind of jam.
 
Gunplummer said:
. I used a Savage 340 mount. It is a one piece stamping and was quite popular for that application.

Looks like that would work just fine with the Mosin as well.

How about a Weaver #1?

http://www.gswagner.com/mosin-nagant/scope/mnscope.html

Not my work -- I prefer open sights on the Mosin.

Rock Solid makes a lower mount:

https://www.rocksolidind.com/product/mosin-nagant-round-receiver-scope-mount/

And SVD two-piece mounts also work well.

But I don't like 'scopes and have no idea why anyone would use one on a Carcano. My only 'scoped rifle is my .22. Due to my eyesight, I feel it's only fair to the squirrel.

A 'scoped rifle just isn't a challenge within 200 yards. Irons, though, are something else entirely.

Ever wonder why nobody (With some sense) ever bends the Russian bolt?

I don't because I'm a lefty and find it easy to shoot a bolt action with a straight handle by hooking said handle with my thumb to open it. I prefer the Mosin's straight handle for this reason. Same with my Gew88.

However, bolt-bending service abound, and it's not a huge matter to hack the bolt handle off and replace with a longer piece, either drilled and tapped or welded. It's not even hard to make it look good.

You only really need a bent bolt handle if you're going to run a 'scope in the traditional position.

Dang man, how the heck did they bend the bolts on all those PU sniper rifles? Must have been hard... that's gotta be why Russia didn't field a lot of snipers in WWII...!

Josh
 
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Erno86 said:
A shooter can jam a M91-30, 7.62x54R round, whereas the base of the round is jammed against the face of the open bolt at a cockeyed angle, that has the round out of the chamber pointed down roughly at a 45 degree angle. If the bolt is forced closed...the round could possibly have a out of battery explosion {OOB}, with the bullet exiting out of the base of the wooden forearm and possibly into the shooters support hand. I believe this kind of OOB mishap occurred with a former RSO at our range, with the bullet exciting his hand --- Though I can't verify it --- I did have this kind of jam twice with my M91-30's, but I never tried to force the bolt closed with that kind of jam.

Sounds like you're describing rimlock, and it will not occur in a Mosin that is in-spec.

Josh
 
Erno86, for the life of me, I can't picture how that is mechanically possible but I might not be understanding your description correctly.
 
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