We all know about Glock being an elite handgun. I think most would agree the Sig P series and even CZ would be consider elite. What about the M&P from smith and Wesson? I ask because I'm noticing a lot of police agencies are going to the M&P, my department being one of them at the first of the year. I'm just curious on where the gun stands amongst the "elite" handguns. Thanks.
Is the M&P an elite pistol?
- Thread starter bspillman
- Start date
LockedBreech
New member
I think it's fair to say the M&P is a reliable, quality service-type semiautomatic handgun, but I don't know if it's possible for there to be an objective response as to whether it's "elite" - that's likely pretty heavily weighted by a particular person's experience.
"Elite pistols" is BS. If you believed that kind of hype, every department
and the military would be using Hk.
M&P's are good guns. They have a couple of weak points if you run them
hard (20,000+ rds per year). Trigger spring, extractor, I've seen broken
trigger bars and the occasional stock guide rod disintegrate. ANYTHING
will break if you run it hard enough. You mentioned CZ---Trigger return
springs (which are a B$#ch to change out) Slide stop pins, extractor
springs---I carry spares for all.
I'm sure the M&P will serve your department well. S&W gave them a great
price and promises of copious after sale support--what could go wrong?
Just an observation---I've seen several departments that went to M&P
switching away from it. The current sweetheart seems to be the
SIG P320.
and the military would be using Hk.
M&P's are good guns. They have a couple of weak points if you run them
hard (20,000+ rds per year). Trigger spring, extractor, I've seen broken
trigger bars and the occasional stock guide rod disintegrate. ANYTHING
will break if you run it hard enough. You mentioned CZ---Trigger return
springs (which are a B$#ch to change out) Slide stop pins, extractor
springs---I carry spares for all.
I'm sure the M&P will serve your department well. S&W gave them a great
price and promises of copious after sale support--what could go wrong?
Just an observation---I've seen several departments that went to M&P
switching away from it. The current sweetheart seems to be the
SIG P320.
Evil Monkey
New member
I have an M&P40 with 5,300rds through it.
Short answer, I would never buy another one and if I could turn back time, I would've bought a Glock.
Don't get me wrong, I'm keeping mine until I shoot it apart, but based on my experiences and others reporting the same, I would never buy another one or recommend it to another person.
The extractor is seriously poorly engineered, at least for the 40sw and 45acp models. It is universal and is used for 9mm, 40sw, and 45acp but the last two calibers seem to have the most problems. It seems as if the extractor doesn't sit right. The claw cannot grab enough rim area on the case head. The slightest bit the chamber is dirty/caked with carbon, you will have problems.
Steel cased ammo is reliable through my M&P. I've shot boxes on top of boxes without a problem, but steel casings do not obturate in the chamber very well and let carbon build up on the chamber walls. I've found that if I don't clean the chamber, even after one box of Tulammo, then shooting brass or aluminum cased ammo is going to be a nightmare. Nothing but fail to extracts. Starting with a clean chamber, however, I'm able to shoot a few thousand rounds of brass or aluminum cased ammo without cleaning and with zero issues. Fun times......
P.S., the chamber needs to be properly chamfered, particularly under the barrel hood. I know most pistols aren't built this way but the sharp edge under the barrel hood is a big problem with cartridges that have sharp case-mouths, like Fiocchi for example. Some people may blame the ammo, I don't. The barrel hood and top side of the chamber should be one straight and flat surface and not have an edge. That's the cause of half of fail to feeds.
The M&P is far from "elite". I believe the pistol started off being designed by a competent engineers, then the project was given to a couple of morons who bought their degrees in mechanical engineering from craigs list.
Short answer, I would never buy another one and if I could turn back time, I would've bought a Glock.
Don't get me wrong, I'm keeping mine until I shoot it apart, but based on my experiences and others reporting the same, I would never buy another one or recommend it to another person.
The extractor is seriously poorly engineered, at least for the 40sw and 45acp models. It is universal and is used for 9mm, 40sw, and 45acp but the last two calibers seem to have the most problems. It seems as if the extractor doesn't sit right. The claw cannot grab enough rim area on the case head. The slightest bit the chamber is dirty/caked with carbon, you will have problems.
Steel cased ammo is reliable through my M&P. I've shot boxes on top of boxes without a problem, but steel casings do not obturate in the chamber very well and let carbon build up on the chamber walls. I've found that if I don't clean the chamber, even after one box of Tulammo, then shooting brass or aluminum cased ammo is going to be a nightmare. Nothing but fail to extracts. Starting with a clean chamber, however, I'm able to shoot a few thousand rounds of brass or aluminum cased ammo without cleaning and with zero issues. Fun times......
P.S., the chamber needs to be properly chamfered, particularly under the barrel hood. I know most pistols aren't built this way but the sharp edge under the barrel hood is a big problem with cartridges that have sharp case-mouths, like Fiocchi for example. Some people may blame the ammo, I don't. The barrel hood and top side of the chamber should be one straight and flat surface and not have an edge. That's the cause of half of fail to feeds.
The M&P is far from "elite". I believe the pistol started off being designed by a competent engineers, then the project was given to a couple of morons who bought their degrees in mechanical engineering from craigs list.
lee n. field
New member
Uhh, what?
I don't know how to define an "elite" handgun. One that has been knighted by the Queen of England? One that has an estate on the Hudson and a winter ranch in New Mexico? One that graduated from Oxford or an Ivy League school?
Nonsense. Neither a Glock (nor an H&K) is any more elite than a Beretta or a Colt. Different guns have different features, different prices, different intended roles. There are some guns that are neither well made nor reliable; I presume those would not be "elite". But any reasonably well made and reliable firearm, handgun or long gun, is a usable tool to do a job.
It's like talking about an "elite" shovel, or an "elite" drill press.
Jim
Nonsense. Neither a Glock (nor an H&K) is any more elite than a Beretta or a Colt. Different guns have different features, different prices, different intended roles. There are some guns that are neither well made nor reliable; I presume those would not be "elite". But any reasonably well made and reliable firearm, handgun or long gun, is a usable tool to do a job.
It's like talking about an "elite" shovel, or an "elite" drill press.
Jim
elite: the choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class
I use an M&P in competition and have a few for other purposes as well. Traded up from the Glocks. I would not consider them to be anywhere close to "elite". They are basic service weapons. I might consider the SIGs, CZs and a few others to be mid-grade. In my book, only single action steel framed pistols can enter into the realm of elite, and even then, some are just so so.
If I was a department armorer and had to choose a polymer framed pistol for the officers to use and there was no undue economic or political pressure, I would look at all the service grade pistols and compare and contrast them based on several issues. The two that might get cut are the M&P and the XD, the very ones that are most popular for the shooting games. While the triggers can be made the best in a polymer framed striker fired pistol, the reasons give me pause in a duty environment. That is that the strikers are held with 95% (or more) of the energy in them and a rounded striker can cause it to be released. They are both closer to a sear situation than other striker fired pistols. Yes, the firing pin safety plunger is the safety element, but sufficient grime and lack of maintenance can, and has, caused these to stick in cases. I am not condemning those two, far from it, but comparatively, there are other designs that offer a greater safety margin when a sub 3.0 pound trigger is not needed or desired.
I use an M&P in competition and have a few for other purposes as well. Traded up from the Glocks. I would not consider them to be anywhere close to "elite". They are basic service weapons. I might consider the SIGs, CZs and a few others to be mid-grade. In my book, only single action steel framed pistols can enter into the realm of elite, and even then, some are just so so.
If I was a department armorer and had to choose a polymer framed pistol for the officers to use and there was no undue economic or political pressure, I would look at all the service grade pistols and compare and contrast them based on several issues. The two that might get cut are the M&P and the XD, the very ones that are most popular for the shooting games. While the triggers can be made the best in a polymer framed striker fired pistol, the reasons give me pause in a duty environment. That is that the strikers are held with 95% (or more) of the energy in them and a rounded striker can cause it to be released. They are both closer to a sear situation than other striker fired pistols. Yes, the firing pin safety plunger is the safety element, but sufficient grime and lack of maintenance can, and has, caused these to stick in cases. I am not condemning those two, far from it, but comparatively, there are other designs that offer a greater safety margin when a sub 3.0 pound trigger is not needed or desired.
Sig and HK have earned the "elite" title over many years of use, but I think it is much harder to stand out in the current polymer frame, striker fired market (where Glock dominates). I have only owned three handguns that have had zero FTF/FTE (Sig P239, Kahr K9 and HK P2000sk), and that includes Glocks as well.
I've shot a few of the S&W offerings, along with Glock, Sig, HK, etc. and honestly there is nothing that stands out on the M&P or Shield line for me. I look at them like an FNH FNS, good offerings but a bit late to the party. Sig went for a modular design to break the mold, and HK has the best combination of a good fitting polymer frame/trigger in the VP9.
With that being said, I think it is still perfectly suited for LEO or self defense if it ticks the right boxes for you. I'd still prefer a Glock for CC, or a VP9 for duty carry (closely followed by a P320)... Not to say they are bad guns, but many of the M&P recommendations are made with the caveat of having an Apex/aftermarket trigger. I haven't tried them without a stock trigger, so I can't comment on that. To finish this post off, I would not feel at a disadvantage carrying an M&P as a duty weapon. From what I've experienced, you pull the trigger, it goes bang. I just think there is a difference between military and police firearms in terms of abuse.
I've shot a few of the S&W offerings, along with Glock, Sig, HK, etc. and honestly there is nothing that stands out on the M&P or Shield line for me. I look at them like an FNH FNS, good offerings but a bit late to the party. Sig went for a modular design to break the mold, and HK has the best combination of a good fitting polymer frame/trigger in the VP9.
With that being said, I think it is still perfectly suited for LEO or self defense if it ticks the right boxes for you. I'd still prefer a Glock for CC, or a VP9 for duty carry (closely followed by a P320)... Not to say they are bad guns, but many of the M&P recommendations are made with the caveat of having an Apex/aftermarket trigger. I haven't tried them without a stock trigger, so I can't comment on that. To finish this post off, I would not feel at a disadvantage carrying an M&P as a duty weapon. From what I've experienced, you pull the trigger, it goes bang. I just think there is a difference between military and police firearms in terms of abuse.
The M&P triggers have come light years since the originals. My personal gripes with S&W come from owning probably a dozen or so and having issues with 5 of them:
M&P 45c that would fail to feed once dirty (50 rds fired or so)
M&P 9FS where the trigger safety would rub on the frame while being depressed
M&P 9c where the ejection was straight to the face and only harder with better ammo
M&P Shield that had the non-reengaging trigger safety issue that led to the recall
M&P 9c where the slide and barrel peened at around 800 rds and the sear block didn't seem tight enough in the frame so the sear housing could actually tilt up and down
There was also a 1911sc that had failures to return to battery and failures to eject. On returning it to the factory, remember this is a $1200 gun, I received it back with a note saying they replaced and adjusted the extractor and "adjusted the barrel to slide fit". The gun did function well afterward, but I could never get it to produce decent groups afterwards.
M&P 45c that would fail to feed once dirty (50 rds fired or so)
M&P 9FS where the trigger safety would rub on the frame while being depressed
M&P 9c where the ejection was straight to the face and only harder with better ammo
M&P Shield that had the non-reengaging trigger safety issue that led to the recall
M&P 9c where the slide and barrel peened at around 800 rds and the sear block didn't seem tight enough in the frame so the sear housing could actually tilt up and down
There was also a 1911sc that had failures to return to battery and failures to eject. On returning it to the factory, remember this is a $1200 gun, I received it back with a note saying they replaced and adjusted the extractor and "adjusted the barrel to slide fit". The gun did function well afterward, but I could never get it to produce decent groups afterwards.
breakthrough
Moderator
what gives? why are kahr k9 and sig p239 low round BUT such high priced guns?
They are both single stack designs (hence low round count for magazines), but I would say neither fall into the carry often shoot little category. I like the feel of both, so for me they are worth the cost. I bought my K9 used and made a trade for the P239, but they both fit a category that was not catered to by any other company. If you like slim metal frame CC handguns, the market is lacking. Thankfully both of the offerings from Sig and Kahr worked well for me. I won't pretend the P239 is an ideal firearm for every shooter, but it was the perfect balance for me.
orionengnr
New member
You are starting with a false premise.
Define an "elite" handgun. Are you just making up a term without regard to definition? Sure sounds like it.
If I said that "we all know that the Hyundai Excel is an elite car, but is the Camry?" people would call me an idiot.
And rightly so.
marine6680
New member
I have found my M&P9 to be very reliable. So I would say the pistol will serve well.
Glocks are not elite, so much as they are very competent handguns.
Elite for me requires many several thousands in price and the associated workmanship. Pistols that are basically just works of art that expel bullets.
If we are talking a "go to war" rugged idea of elite... well... none of them are perfect. Even the "best" can be shown to have weak points and problems.
But as I said, I think the M&P is plenty durable and rugged for police use.
As far as how much tension is on the striker...
The M&P, XD, VP9, PPQ, P320... all have fully tensioned strikers.
The sear of the M&P (and possibly the others) may move the striker to the rear a small amount as the trigger is pulled, but its not enough for me to consider them partial tension. More like "positive sear engagement"
I don't consider those pistols to be "close to a sear situation"... They use a sear plain and simple in my opinion. I believe the part is labeled as a sear for many of the pistols mentioned.
I don't think of that as a problem though, so long as the pistol is designed well to limit potential problems.
Glocks are not elite, so much as they are very competent handguns.
Elite for me requires many several thousands in price and the associated workmanship. Pistols that are basically just works of art that expel bullets.
If we are talking a "go to war" rugged idea of elite... well... none of them are perfect. Even the "best" can be shown to have weak points and problems.
But as I said, I think the M&P is plenty durable and rugged for police use.
As far as how much tension is on the striker...
The M&P, XD, VP9, PPQ, P320... all have fully tensioned strikers.
The sear of the M&P (and possibly the others) may move the striker to the rear a small amount as the trigger is pulled, but its not enough for me to consider them partial tension. More like "positive sear engagement"
I don't consider those pistols to be "close to a sear situation"... They use a sear plain and simple in my opinion. I believe the part is labeled as a sear for many of the pistols mentioned.
I don't think of that as a problem though, so long as the pistol is designed well to limit potential problems.