Is Tai Chi Worth a D@*n??

spectre, you're reminding me of the time years ago, when I was in a 3-on-1 against one of the fourth degrees in my old school. I'm embarrassed to admit that I'd always thought he was someone promoted on the basis of long friendship with the upper degrees and perfect attendance, you know how it goes sometimes in some schools. anyway, we were scrambling around ourselves trying to get at him, he kicks at me in a perfunctory way, and I block it and scoot in, thinking, "Ha! I got him, I got him." I didn't think about how my arm hurt more than I thought it would with the kind of block I tried, and I still don't know where the second kick came from, but it tagged me a d*mn good one right in the solar plexus. I'd always thought his kicks were sloppy and jerky and unbalanced; goes to show what I knew.

long story short, relevant to this topic: that little, old guy in class who might not be off to one side making the 100 lb bag whump and dance the way I did MIGHT have something else in his arsenal, just as good if not better. so what if I could probably break a couple of his ribs with a kick or punch? he'd never let me get that far.
 
You don't always tell all you know

All martial arts are "worth a damn." It is all in your intent and how you practice them that makes it "for self defense" or "for health".

One thing I notice is missing in the previous explanations is the fact that you don't get all the secrets to an art instantly/on the first day. Some martial arts seem very soft or not as violent as others. *BUT* in all martial arts, the techniques become more "effective" as you gain experience/rank.

There are many, many secrets to each art that are only shown to students who have the understanding and experience to know when to and when not to use them. Arts like tai chi, kuntau, pa kua...are all perfect examples. They are arts that seek to "balance" you and your energy and THEN teach you to harness that energy and use it most effectively/efficiently. These arts can be very, very destructive when necessary.

I personally study Shintoyoshin-ryu Jiu-jitsu. The only real difference in all the martial arts is only their name...

I Bid You Peace,
Mntneer357
 
Only way to defeat multiple opponents when unarmed is to defeat them in detail or be able to attack them in enfilad [ala Aikido, Five rings, etc.]. If three people are within striking distance at least two should be able land attacks even if the solo person can take one of the three out with a single strike, which is possible but usually an unarmed attack powerful enough to disable a person requires a lot of comitment which leaves one exposed.

If you are part of a group fighting a single person you just need to remember that the solo person doesn't have any real way of winning except thru psych op or defeating in detail. The group can afford to take heavy losses and still win.

Actually only way solo person can beat a group in detail even is if they are much superior in skill/speed/conditioning/mindset.
 
As mtneer puts it, you have to be around for awhile before they show you the less obvious aspects of the art (absolutley true!). I have to say this though-to hear a bunch of guys talking about martial arts that haven't really taken the arts to any degree (less than 5 years) is not unlike a bunch of guys who have never fired more than 10 rds from a gun talk about using a gun in a serious fashion. For instance, although three attackers may be near you, it is unlikely they will be able to attack you in any useful fashion. Who trains to attack in a group, outside of the infantry? Suffice it to say that if you are outnumbered you aren't necessarily at a disadvantage. Take a man out with one shot? Try a straight punch to the throat rather than the jaw, much more effective!
 
I guess I know a few people that have trained to fight in small groups. Husband & wife couple that train at Thunder Ranch together for instance.

Also have friends into SCA & Buckskinning/Blackpowder that engage in force on force type group fighting. And some martial arts sem's I have been to at least practice techniques for fighting against a group solo & know of others were they have done group on group fighting.

I know that many here are much better at hand to hand than me, Spectre for instance, but I have sparred against people much better than my humble self and learned real quickly that it doesn't take a lot of skill to defend from an unarmed attack if you can keep the attacker from staying at his/her optimum range.

The more skilled the Martial Artist the more they rely on rhythm, timeing, feints, broken rhythm, etc. But they usually need time to set up a sucessful attack [ie usually at least one combination more often several, not to mention movement] unless they simply sucker punch someone. The one shot stop with a punch against someone expecting an attack is probably less common than one shot stop from a pistol round.

How many really train to fight even two people that work as a team? How much skill or use of group tactics does it take for one member of a group to attack you from behind while your trying to deal with one or two other members of the group?

When your outnumbered you are at a disadvantage. Doesn't mean you will lose but the odds are not in your favor.
 
Who trains to attack in a group, outside of the infantry?
Click to expand...

Football players. Granted, tackling isn't a very sophisticated form of attack, but if it puts you on the ground, you're going to have a hard time dealing with multiple opponents.

In a three on one scenario, it seems to me that only one of the attackers has to make an effective attack. If #1 and #2 do nothing more than distract the defender and/or get him off balance, that's good enough if #3 can take advantage of the opening.
 
IMHO Martial Arts can be divided into two different paths.
Pre Bruce Lee,and post Bruce Lee.

Remember it is only my personal belief,based on my own course of study, but it seems to me that most schools now are run as money makers.

Some of the pre Bruce Lee schools did not advertise for students as the teacher often times worked with students
for a life time.

I have found Tai Chi Chuan, yang style, that makes use of the sword, to work well with Akido and boxing.

With time one can advance from basic Tai Chi to the death touch which involves knowledge of lethal pressure points.

I also find merit in the way of the stick (Shindo Muso Ryu),
and the art of cane fighting.

When I boxed as a youngster I learned early on that even a three minute fight can leave one with arms that burn and feel as if they are full of lead.

What Tai Chi did for me was help me learn to develop a controled reflex and rather than have an excellerated heartbeat(fight or flight),to remain calm when confronted with danger, and continue thinking in the midst of action.

That ability saved my life in two ambushes, and while injured,allowed me to survive, while my attackers did not.

I have a small vanity and continue to learn from any with knowledge and have taken small parts of many styles and forms to suit me personally.

Tai Chi will share with one the ability to slow time down and allow for choice--not just reaction,IMHO.
 
I would divide martial arts in today's USA into three categories: fitness, sports/contest and combatives.

Fitness-type martial arts include "cardio" kick boxing, Tae Kwon Do (at most places), Tai Chi Chuan and such. This category include those martial arts that stress cardi-vascular conditioning and stress-relief and may involve spiritual dimensions as well as some light contact or sparring. It is definitely not for self-defense, but is an ideal introduction to beginners and fitness enthusiasts (who frankly do not need the injuries attendant with more "hard core" training).

Contest-oriented martial arts include Judo, Sambo, Muay Thai and UFC-style no-holds barred events. These often involve "hard-core" grappling and striking. Benefits are derived from full-force sparring and the consquent ability to deal with actual opposition. Downside is the "duel" or "contest" mentality that does not always reflect "the street."

Combatives include Fairbairn-Applegate system, Krav Maga and myriad of systems that usually incorporate scenario-based training with emphasis on strikes to vulnerable spots. The positive element is the more self-defense oriented frame of mind and the appropriate techniques. The negative element is two-fold: combatives usually do not build physical attributes as fitness or contest-oriented martial arts do and they do not prepare practitioners for actual opposition (particularly surprising or unexpected situations) due to emphasis on "you-do-this-then-I-do-that" style of training.

Please note that this is a broad generalization. The actual category and level of training vary widely within a system depending on the instructor and the students.

Skorzeny
 
T'ai Chi...worth it?

When we were going through the strictly survival phase of martial arts...we used to use one overall practice every session or so to bring the practioners back to reality.
We practiced in a wrestling room...wall to wall mats(even the walls were covered) We had one door out.
We put the Good guy in the far corner (about a 30x30 room)...We threw in 5 to 15 experienced practioners between the Good Guy and the door. Everyone was able to use anything that they felt they wanted to. The bad guys wore body, shin, and head protectors.
For the first year, very few people got out the door, much less to the door. The Bg's used back mounts, chokes, trips, takedowns, low level kicks, full power slaps, gang takedowns, etc...
We slowed it down so people could have time to think.
We kept mixing the BG's because they started to learn to attack as a group.
Anyone into self-defense should try that type of work out. You find...first and foremost, you have to be in shape to survive an attack. You stay calm and you learn to breath and you react....oddly enough, we all learned by slowing down at first...much like T'ai Chi.
 
LASur5R made an excellent point about slowing things down for practices in the beginning. I've noticed that most people (myself included) tend to want to do things quickly in the beginning.

Only later did I realize that speed comes from repetition, not hurrying or rushing. I guess what I am saying is that slowly practiced "smooth" motions eventually tend to become fast as one practices gradually. If one tries to rush from the beginning, he will be left with jerky, quick motions that will be inaccurate and, ultimately, futile.

Skorzeny
 
.02 cents

Tai Chi Chuan as I understand it no longer uses explosive chi in its movements. As it is practiced in modern times, it is different from what it used to be at the turn of the century ... at least, in the way it was explained to me.

Nevertheless, it is a wonderful system at combat speed, and in Japan isn't regarded as calisthenics for seniors ... on the contrary, "Tai Kyoku Ken" as it is called over there is given the full respect accorded a proper martial art.

At any rate, I think a problem with understanding some of the more esoteric forms of Gung Fu such as Pa Gua and Tai Chi, is that they tend to bely "scientific" explanations and require a heck of a lot of time invested to pay dividends.

Slowing it down works. Seems like every other person wants to rush things.
 
Skorzeny and LAS, I have also found that smooth, precise movements work best as a foundation, speeding up with increased skill.
 
Tai Chi / Multiple attackers

Hello all-

There are two aspects of this thread which I'd like to wade in on.

On Tai Chi: Surely this is a question of which instructor you end up with and what you really want to put into your training. On the one hand, you could end up with Dan Docherty (www.taichichuan.co.uk) who is a pretty well-known full contact fighter and all-round hardman. His students have a good reputation as fighters. On the other hand, you could end up with (as is likely in my neck of the woods) some new-age hippy aerobics instructor who did two seminars and is now teaching 'Tai Chi Physical Culture' or some rubbish like that.
But from what I understand, Tai Chi Chuan is usually not practised alone in China, but along with another art like Chin'na (sp?). I spoke to a Chinese man working with me about this and he said that he believed Tai Chi was for health and technique and Chin'na for applications.
If it means anything to you, Don Draeger was very impressed by Tai Chi Chuan masters.

On multiple opponents: Thank the gods for pre-emptive strikes, guns, knives, the ability to run fast.
 
Tai Chi Chuan started life as what was considered the deadliest Kung fu form in China. So deadly, in fact, that one of the emperors declared that it should be watered down and taught slowly and a form of exercise to inhance "chi", or life energy.

The slow rising and falling of both arms that you may have seen is actually a block. When the forearm is close to the body and parallel with the ground this is actually a "ward off" maneuver.

I've attempted to practice kata quickly and find that though some of the moves have a place when mixed in with other styles, the Tai Chi form itself (as popularly taught) is so watered down that its effectiveness in a self-defense situation is minimal.

Whatever else it does though, it sure makes the hands tingle. Good excercise.

EC
 
Thanks for all the excellent responses to my original question. (Have been on vacation for a week.)

You have provided enough info for me to make an informed decision.
 
kicking bikers asses

If you really want to kick the asses of 3 tough bikers, I'd recommend finding a serious Ju-Jitsu school. One that doesn't take itself too seriously, and focuses more on pragmatic technique, and is willing to defocus the more esoteric aspects of the tradition forms.

The origins of Tai Chi, were certainly an effective martial art, but these days, in America, virtually all the schools are teaching a more meditative version, and while the real masters would be able to be very effective in a combat situation, I don't feel that they adequately prepare thier students for such things, nor do I belive that many of the people to seek out Tai Chi are looking for that.

The trick is to find a teacher that you like and trust, who will say something like "While the best way to win a fight, is not to fight, and running should be your first technique; if you HAVE to fight, this is how to deliver a server beating to 6 guys!" Instead of the often more traditional approach including more meditation, and mental obediance, which certainly has it's place, and at higher levels, can be more important that fighting technique, but doesn't do much when you walk out of the first class, and get mugged.

Just my $0.02.

YMMV,

Devon
 
I began learning Tai Chi Chuan last summer. This is in addition to my Hsing I and Shuai Chiao training. I've found that most of the movements in Tai Chi have combat applications. Just practicing it has helped me in my hard style training. The key is finding someone to teach you both the hard and soft sides of the style, they all have them.
 
I was scanning a book on Tai Chi Chuan at Barnes & Nobles over the weekend. In the introduction, the author stated that he got a lot of flack from other Tai Chi practitioners because he considered Tai Chi to have any martial arts application at all.

I dunno, maybe driving my car slowly to the corner 7-11 everyday prepares me to run the Indy 500.
 
"I dunno, maybe driving my car slowly to the corner 7-11 everyday prepares me to run the Indy 500."

Yeah, I have to say that whether Tai Chi is supposed to have martial application or not, if all you ever practice is the slow motion forms I doubt you'd be prepared to use it. Slow motion practice can be great in any MA, but it is never enough by itself.

I still would like to hear from Tai Chi practicioners whether or not they ever practice the techniques at full speed and power?

Regards,
Matt Wallis
 
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