is something wrong with DPMS?

Cerebus

"Isn't DPMS one of the companies that was bought out by Cerberus? "

If so, stay away from them. Private Equity firms will gut the operating costs, even at the expense of short term quality and market share in order to realize a profit when they sell of the asset. I have worked for 2 companies that were bought by private equity - both were nightmares.

Note they also own Remington.
 
lots of good replys here, i plan on using it as a range toy most of the time but if anything happens i plan on it being the rifle that my handgun gets me to. that being said i might want to look at a another rifle. i would love a DD m4 v5 but finding one at what i want to spend would be hard. after reading what has been posted i went looking for other options. looking around i think i might just get an m&p15t, i could get one for about $900 and that would leave me cash for optics and a case of ammo. not dead set yet, i will keep looking but i would be very happy with the features it comes with. thank you all for your responses.
 
dont know about out of spec. Ive never seen build specs for an ar. Dpms guns are decent guns. They dont have alot of bells and whistles but are more then relibable enough for civilian use and the .223 and 308 i have are a couple of the most accurate rifles i ever owned. I also have a bushmaster a stag and a colt so i do have a pretty good representive of the competition. Would i trade my colt for another dpms. NOPE but a guy can buy two sprorticals for the price of one colt and theres not much differnce in quality between the two other then the bolt group and you can buy a good bolt group for 200 bucks.
 
It's not a matter of if there's something wrong with DPMS. There isn't. It's a matter of price. The same goes with Bushmaster and many others. If you can get a good deal on a DPMS, Bushmaster, Rock River, etc... then there's nothing wrong with that.

Here's the problem:

Most people who want to buy a gun; especially any of the "Black" type rifles; tend to become impatient. Therefor, they don't shop around and find that good deal on the DPMS, Bushmaster, Rock River, etc... They wind up paying "NORMAL" prices for them. e.g. $900-$1100. If you pay that much, then you got ripped off. Why? Because you can buy a Colt, BCM, LMT, Daniel, or even a S&W for the same exact price. And THESE, are definitely higher quality. The S&W is pushing it. Each manufacturer makes lower and higher ends. But the colt, bcm, lmt, daniel, etc... is simply MUCH BETTER QUALITY.

That's NOT to say that there is anything wrong with getting a DPMS. It's just not the same quality.

ANALOGY: I really like the Ford Focus. And for what I would use an in town car for, it works great. I gave mine to my daughter with 150,000 miles on it, and it's still running great. Brand new, you can buy one for $15,000 - $16,000. A Ford Taurus is simply a much BETTER car. More power. More luxurious. However; the Taurus costs about $25,000 - $26,000. Now; if for some reason, they both cost the same; e.g. The Taurus was on sale for $15,000; which one would be the better deal???/ The Taurus by all accounts. So why in the hell would you buy the Focus for the same amount of money.

Not the great analogy, but the point is: If the DPMS costs the same as a Colt, BCM, LMT, Daniel, or S&W, then why in the hell would you buy the DPMS??? It is in NO WAY a better weapon. Even the S&W, I wouldn't buy at NORMAL price. Luckily, there are a lot of great deals around if you're patient.

If I wanted an AR for fun, plinking, the occasional prairie dog, and some home defense, would I buy a $700 DPMS over a $900 Colt or BCM? Yes I would. Especially if money was an issue. If I wanted to get into match shooting, marksmanship, taking carbine classes, shooting 5,000-10,000 rounds a year, etc... would I save the $200 and buy the DPMS? No way in hell. If the DPMS was going to cost $900 or more, I wouldn't even give it a 2nd thought. The only way that's a "GOOD DEAL", is if Colt and such was costing $1200. But you can buy a Colt 6520 and 6920 for the $899-$999 range. You can get the better S&W M&P15 for $750-$799. You can build a good BCM for around the same price. So why would you pay $900 for a DPMS??? Again; there isn't one thing about the DPMS that is better. It's not a bad gun, but why would you pay the same amount of money when you can buy a much better rifle for the same price?

And some companies like Bushmaster are even worse. Their quality is lower than the DPMS, yet because their NAME USE TO BE QUALITY, they are living off of 10-15 years ago reputation, and feel they can get away with charging $1000-$1200 for their rifles.

Bottom line: If you can get a DPMS for under $800, and you're not getting into shooting 5,000+ rounds a year, that would be a great deal. If you're going to spend MORE than $800, or you're going to be shooting more than 5,000 rounds a year, or into heavy competition, marksmanship, etc... then you DON'T buy the DPMS, Bushmaster, Olympia, Rock River, etc..... You spend the SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY, and you buy the higher quality rifles.
 
I've worked with two DPMS ARs, my son-in-law has a pair, my gunsmith thinks well of them.
No problems encountered.
Denis
 
I wouldn't be as worried about the "out of spec"/Q.C. issues nowadays, at least in regards to upper assemblies. Like many large companies they used to contract a lot of (mostly inferior) parts from China, but they are now importing domestically and in full production.
 
hmmmmmm Why buy a DPMS?

http://www.birminghampistol.com/product/colt-6520/ $899

But in ALL FAIRNESS; if a person is willing to go online, research distributors, know how to work the gunshows, etc... then you can indeed get a great price on a DPMS.

http://www.birminghampistol.com/product/dpms-panther-ar-15-223-flat-top/ $599

But the problem is the person who goes to their local gun shop or big box store, where ALL THE PRICES are much higher. The DPMS and Bushmaster they are selling is close to $900-$1000. Now; this impatient buyer will RATIONALIZE it by saying that this SAME SELLER is selling colts for $1100-$1200. You have to compare apples to apples. When all is said and done, there is only ONE CONSTANT. The MONEY you are spending. $900 spent at a local gun shop is the SAME $900 spent at a different store, gunshow, or online. That is the constant.

If you order a DPMS from someone line the link above, then GOOD FOR YOU!!! If you buy it for $900+, then you have no business asking if it was a good deal. IT WASN'T!!! And we can't rationalize it for you. A DPMS for $600-$700 is a very good deal. A DPMS for $900+ is NOT a good deal.
 
SauerJackson said:
I wouldn't be as worried about the "out of spec"/Q.C. issues nowadays, at least in regards to upper assemblies. Like many large companies they used to contract a lot of (mostly inferior) parts from China, but they are now importing domestically and in full production.
Click to expand...


I have no doubt that there are imported AR parts I would like to find some kind of documentation on this. I see the knock-off optics, rails, stocks and other air soft crap but what about LPK parts? Are those being imported?
 
No doubt some LPK parts are imported, maybe like those in the PlumCrazy lowers. Anyway, another reason to buy quality LPKs. It's worth spending $20 more to get quality.

... Not saying DPMS LPKs aren't made in the US, I suspect they are.
 
Since most of this thread is speculative opinion I'll offer some more.Of all the AR and AR parts name brands,how many actually make their own parts in house?(my guess,darn few).
If I have a machine shop and I am looking for my bread and butter enterprise,am I going to jump into the civilian aftermarket mil spec AR parts biz?(remember,no out of spec parts).I don't think the market would carry me.
Now,if I was a contractor to make military parts,had the tooling and the processes down,might I take advantage of the civilian market demand for the parts?Yes.
My speculation is that some of the elite cool status parts and the uncool common parts come off the same machines in the same plant.Then some are sent to the Cool company,and some are sent to the Uncool company.The only difference is mental.
 
Well, you wouldn't really wanna advertise using Chinese made parts in "america's gun". But it happens, VERY few companies make all their components on house! And a lot of places DO make parts for several different big name companies. Gas blocks, bolt carriers and groups, upper receivers, etc.....And that doesn't have to mean poor quality, DPMS has some very high end U.S. parts on their more middle of the road 5.56 guns, but they offer some low end parts for people like me that don't need a match gun. My cheap a@# lite 16 has a Chinese made front sight and probably the old delta ring. They work, its not the Mercedes of ARs, but it has survived some pretty brutal punishment.
But they had enough concerns about the various suppliers that, at least upper assemblies, are all made in MN now.
 

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I *really* don't expect you'll be finding foreign made parts from a US based maker in a rifle like an AR-15. Reason being, section 922r- if they aren't clear about the origin of the parts it is possible that an owner might end up with a nonsporting rifle assembled with more than 10 imported parts. The ATF would frown on this kind of thing.

No, while there are some companies making parts for a bunch of others, just because it came off the same equipment doesn't necessarily mean they're equal. One company might specify a given level of quality control and final finishing... another may not. As I've said, I've used DPMS LPKs and RRA LPKs and I can tell you that there is indeed a difference in some of the very little details (the RRA roll pins just go in more easily).
 
all I know is the little sportical .223 i had digested probably 10k without any problems and i sold it to my buddy who is still pounding away on it and hasnt replaced a thing. Gun has allways been dead reliable and shoots loads it likes into moa at a 100 yards. I paid 650 bucks for it new. What more could you ask for? Dont know how you guys figure it but a 1400 dollar colt wouldnt have done one pinch better up till this point. Sometimes i have to chuckle at ar guns (1911s are the same) Ive got quite a few of each. I have decent guns dmps, stag, colt, bushmaster and rra ars, again good but not top shelf. In 1911s i have colts kimbers sti and have had a number of springfields. these are all good guns. Now some uppity people will tell you you need a novseske (see i cant even spell it) ar or a ed brown 1911 to have a good gun. What i see is a gun with about 200 dollars worth of better parts then my 1000 dollar gun and sold for 3 times more. My appologys to the urban soldiers who spend more time shooting in vidio games then they do actually shooting guns but for the most part your throwing your money away or just trying to act like you know guns. Theres not a civilian alive that wouldnt be well served by a dpms gun. Heck if after 50000 rounds a spring breaks or an extractor breaks replace the dammed thing. You can buy alot of the for the 1000 bucks you saved when you bought the gun.

Now ive had junk. The first two ars i owned were early production olympics and believe me they jammed more then they ran. Ive been told that even they have come along way and make a decent gun now but even i am not giving them any more money.

Way to many wanabe soldiers on the net. I was a soldier and believe me the ar they issued me in the early 70s was a colt id have gladly swapped for my old sprortical.
 
LLoyd; I totally agree with your premise. And in today's dollars, there's absolutely nothing wrong with buying a DPMS, RR, etc... for $650. The only two problems SOME PEOPLE HAVE, are:

1. Colts, Nov, LMT, BCM, etc... DON'T have to cost $1400. You can get them or build them for the $800-$900 range if you're lucky, and $900-$1000 fairly common.
2. Many people WON'T shop around and pay $650 in today's dollars for DPMS, S&W, Rock River, Bush, etc... They are impatient. They will buy it locally, at the local price, and pay the SAME EXACT $900-$1000 that they could have paid for the AR that You Yourself just said had some "BETTER PARTS" in it.

I agree: You don't need to spent 2-3X more for the "Colt, LMT, BCM" over the others. But if you shop around, you don't have to pay that much for those better makes. The NORMAL price of my S&W M&P15 was $949. "Suggest retail was $1049". Would I spend that much on an M&P15? Hell no.!!! For that price, I could have gotten the Colt or the BCM. However, I shopped around and was patient. There was a 3 day Christmas Sale at Sportsman's Warehouse. "Local Big Box Store". The $949 M&P15 was on sale for $200 off. ($749). Plus, there was a military appreciation sale by S&W and it gave me a $100 rebate. So, I got my S&W M&P15 for $649. So yes, I'd buy the M&P for $649 over a $900-$1000 Colt or BCM.

The problem is, people are impatient, they buy on the spur of the moment, and they rationalize. Take away ALL THE MONEY ISSUES. The DPMS, Bush, Rock, etc... are NOT AS GOOD as a Colt, BCM, LMT, Nove, ect... However; MOST of the things that make the Colt, BCM, LMT, Nove, etc... better, aren't really that important to the "Average" AR15 owner/shooter. Now; put money back into the equation, and you come up with certain facts.

1. If you spend $1200-$1500+ for the normal colt, BCM, LMT, Nove, Daniel, etc... then you spent way too much. You're only going to rationalize. I'm not talking about after adding EoTech and other accessories. I'm talking about the Basic Rifle. You Can buy/build these at the $900-$1000 mark from numerous places.

2. If you paid $900-$1000 for a DPMS, Rock River, Bush, S&W, etc.. then you spent way too much. You're only going to rationalize it. You could have spent the exact same amount on a better rifle like a colt, BCM, LMT, etc... Maybe you didn't want to order online. Maybe you are just impatient and wouldn't wait for a sale. Either way; you paid too much for it. But definitely don't think it's the same quality as the Colt, BCM, LMT, etc... It's NOT!

3. If you spent in the $600-$750 range for your DPMS, Bush, Rock, M&P, etc..., then you did really well for a weapon for the average owner/shooter. I say average, because chances are you're not going to be shooting 5,000-10,000 rounds a year; you're not into the big carbine classes; you're not into the major competition and marksmanship events. You want a rifle for target practice, plinking, fun, some prairie dogs and varmints, and possibly home defense. EXCELLENT CHOICE. But again: Don't try and rationalize your $650 DPMS or Bush as being the same quality as the Colt, BCM, LMT, etc... It's not. And that's coming from the person who bought the $649 M&P15. Love the gun. Great price. Well worth it. But it's not the Colt, BCM, etc... And I personally consider the M&P15 a little different. It is actually a bit higher quality than the DPMS, Bush, RR, etc... And I DO SHOOT 5,000-10,000 rounds a years through it. But I know what issues could happen. I won't rationalize that my M&P15 is as good as the BCM or Colt. But it is better than the RR, Bush, DPMS, etc..

4. If you are into the 5,000-10,000+ rounds a year; carbine classes; playing war games; marksmanship and competition events; etc... then you really shouldn't be looking at the DPMS, Bush, RR, etc... You really should be looking at the Colt, BCM, LMT, etc... Now; with some shopping around, you can get the excellent base models in the $900-$1000 range. Of course, all the add on accessories is another story. That's the same for all weapons. I will NEVER buy a fully decked out weapon for those $1400, $2500+ range. You pay ONLY for convenience. You can buy all the same accessories as the fully decked out version, and have your TOTAL price at the $1500 range compared to $1800-$2500.

So for the basic models; not counting accessories;
1) Buy/build the colt, bcm, lmt, etc... in the $900-$1000 range. Anything more, you paid too much. Don't rationalize what you spent. You spent too much.
2) Buy the DPMS, Bush, M&P15, RR, etc... in the $600-$750 range. Anything more, you paid too much. Don't rationalize what you spent. You spent too much. AND: Don't rationalize that it's the same quality as the Colt, LMT, BCM, etc... it's not.

HOWEVER: It can Definitely be "JUST AS GOOD AS" the colt, bcm, daniel, lmt, etc... for what YOU WANT and NEED IT TO DO!!!! That's what is important. For me, my M&P15 is "Just as Good as" the colt, BCM, etc... for what I want from it. I am not into the marksmanship, carbine classes, war game training, 300+ yard shots, etc... For plinking, varmints, targets, fun, and home defense; it's fine. But I won't rationalize that they are the same quality. A Ford Focus and a Porsche are NOT THE SAME QUALITY!!! But for my USE/NEEDS, "Driving inner city only", the Ford Focus can perform "Just As Good As" the Porsche.
 
great buy on your smith! I think of it a bit differnt. Comparing your smith to a colt or lmt ect is more like comparing it to another focus with a blueprinted motor then it is to a porche. There isnt much to seperate the really expensive ones from the bargin ones other then a better bolt carrier group.
 
hibc i am referring to small parts....like sight hoods with the hole off center...pins to long....stuff that doesn't thread easy....not the major components. i am not an armorer and wouldn't know whats correct anyway...bobn
 
I'm not an armorer,either.I have machined and inspected a lot of parts and worked in QC tracking down and documenting non-conforming parts.
I can't confirm it,but was told by a reliable source RR parts are authorized to be used by military armorers.
When you are talking roll pins,those get ordered from roll pin manufacturers.
If I have the machines ,processes,and personel to manufacture parts to true milspec,there is a diminished return disrupting my processes,complicating production,and training my people to make substandard parts.
Now,might I save a buck by bypassing some processes...yes.Tests,finishes,etc.
But will I increase my profits by disrupting my mfg process to make substandard parts for PDMS?I would charge more for the "special" parts.
All the workflow,tools,gages,fixtures,cutters,and documentation have cost.Even to make substandard parts,it costs money to have a unique part.
That cost would eat up the cost saving.
On pins too long or short,might it be the pin is to spec and your custom High dollar really cool receiver is narrow or wide?
I am not trying to justify selling bad parts or poorly made guns.I am putting together a 1911 460 Rowland project for my brother.He handed me a box of top of the line high quality parts.We expect to have to tune a 1911 extractor or fit a 1911 safety.
This does not mean Cyl and Slide,Ed Brown,Wilson,etc top grade parts are junk.
There is more to building than buying and assembling
 
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