is it unlawful?
- Thread starter TRiCoN45
- Start date
Sigma 40 Blaster
New member
This is getting a little crazy, anyone who wants to shoot someone has no business with a gun. I DO NOT THINK anyone here falls into that category.
I like reading Wild Alaska's posts on almost everything (loved the one about doing a few tactical rolls in Walmart screaming something goofy if something looked "hinky" to him) and while I don't agree with everything he says I have to agree with him here. Backing down from an incident, or even outright running has to be an option for evaluating your actions in any given situation...if you're programmed to shoot upon any threat there's going to be trouble for you probably moreso than whomever you're shooting at.
If someone attempts to fight you hand to hand you cannot shoot them. Period. The fact that you're carrying a gun does not mean that you get to shoot them because you're afraid it will get taken from you.
I think in my last post I said that my instructor gave me one good piece of advice, if someone's doing or about to do something to you, your family, or an innocent that would get them the death sentence or life in prison using deadly force is an option. If the death sentence is not a punishment fit for the crime then you have no right to give them that sentence your self. That's my way of thinking as far as CCW incidents go...home defense is a little different because as someone stated if someone's in my home they are not there to do me any good.
I personally think people who are prone to attacks of fear, anxiety, or ego shouldn't carry...I have no problem handing over my car keys or wallet to a mugger if it will allow my family and I to escape. If I get a vibe that he's gonna shoot no matter what I will take my chances...I can relate to the BG on a lot of levels and usually my street guts are right. Honestly the guys who have no street sense are the ones that are going to get into trouble.
Also, at the end of the day I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six...I know when I CAN and WILL use deadly force and am willing and ready to accept the consequences no matter what happens.
I like reading Wild Alaska's posts on almost everything (loved the one about doing a few tactical rolls in Walmart screaming something goofy if something looked "hinky" to him) and while I don't agree with everything he says I have to agree with him here. Backing down from an incident, or even outright running has to be an option for evaluating your actions in any given situation...if you're programmed to shoot upon any threat there's going to be trouble for you probably moreso than whomever you're shooting at.
If someone attempts to fight you hand to hand you cannot shoot them. Period. The fact that you're carrying a gun does not mean that you get to shoot them because you're afraid it will get taken from you.
I think in my last post I said that my instructor gave me one good piece of advice, if someone's doing or about to do something to you, your family, or an innocent that would get them the death sentence or life in prison using deadly force is an option. If the death sentence is not a punishment fit for the crime then you have no right to give them that sentence your self. That's my way of thinking as far as CCW incidents go...home defense is a little different because as someone stated if someone's in my home they are not there to do me any good.
I personally think people who are prone to attacks of fear, anxiety, or ego shouldn't carry...I have no problem handing over my car keys or wallet to a mugger if it will allow my family and I to escape. If I get a vibe that he's gonna shoot no matter what I will take my chances...I can relate to the BG on a lot of levels and usually my street guts are right. Honestly the guys who have no street sense are the ones that are going to get into trouble.
Also, at the end of the day I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six...I know when I CAN and WILL use deadly force and am willing and ready to accept the consequences no matter what happens.
Who here has a problem with backing down? I don't. But at the same time, I want to kill the guy first, before he kills me..thats where your street smarts come into play..do you think he'll kill you?
Some situations, like mine, I couldn't back down. So I used two options avaiable, my gun, or my dog. Let crazy woman decide. We'll never know where we'll get mugged, or when we'll get robbed in the middle of the night. Perhaps even you're at work late one night, come home to a guy who's is raping your wife. Anything can happen, anytime, anywhere. And a good rule of thumb is, USE WHAT YOU HAVE AROUND YOU. Throw sand in their eyes, beat them with a tree branch. Hell, if you need to, kick the guy in the balls! But if last resort is to shoot someone, so be it.
We're all adults here, right? We all know right from wrong. But what makes us different, is how each of us view the laws. Some people on this forum base their life off the law. Straight out of the books. Others, base their life off common sense, if I was in the jury stands, what would I think?
And like the last poster, I don't think anyone here wants to kill, or even shoot anyone. Otheres show it more so, that if they had to shoot someone, without a doubt, I wouldn't blink. It upsets me that so many of you judge the others. There's no right from wrong in these kinds of situations (unless you're shooting a 12yr old with a pocket knife, yeah, you're screwed).
WHY CAN'T WE JUST ALL BE FRIENDS!!!
ok sorry I'll shut up now
Some situations, like mine, I couldn't back down. So I used two options avaiable, my gun, or my dog. Let crazy woman decide. We'll never know where we'll get mugged, or when we'll get robbed in the middle of the night. Perhaps even you're at work late one night, come home to a guy who's is raping your wife. Anything can happen, anytime, anywhere. And a good rule of thumb is, USE WHAT YOU HAVE AROUND YOU. Throw sand in their eyes, beat them with a tree branch. Hell, if you need to, kick the guy in the balls! But if last resort is to shoot someone, so be it.
We're all adults here, right? We all know right from wrong. But what makes us different, is how each of us view the laws. Some people on this forum base their life off the law. Straight out of the books. Others, base their life off common sense, if I was in the jury stands, what would I think?
And like the last poster, I don't think anyone here wants to kill, or even shoot anyone. Otheres show it more so, that if they had to shoot someone, without a doubt, I wouldn't blink. It upsets me that so many of you judge the others. There's no right from wrong in these kinds of situations (unless you're shooting a 12yr old with a pocket knife, yeah, you're screwed).
WHY CAN'T WE JUST ALL BE FRIENDS!!!
ok sorry I'll shut up now
spacemanspiff
New member
Mindset. Premeditation.
I don't want to do harm to no one. If someone threatens me or my loved ones with deadly force, I will do whatever I can to STOP THE THREAT.
Deaf Smith
New member
If you want the Texas laws on use of deadly force go to this and click the current as of Sept. 1, 2007 link (it's in PDF and you can save it on your PC.)
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/relatedlaws.htm
Notice several things:
1) Reteat laws (or lack of them)
2) Carrying such as handguns, illegal knives (including Hattaro Hanzos), and clubs in your car.
3) and what remidies are available to someone who is injured or killed while defending yourself.
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/relatedlaws.htm
Notice several things:
1) Reteat laws (or lack of them)
2) Carrying such as handguns, illegal knives (including Hattaro Hanzos), and clubs in your car.
3) and what remidies are available to someone who is injured or killed while defending yourself.
Holy cow Sigma40 are you really 6-5 330lbs?! You're more than twice my weight.....I dunno who those weird people were that asked you for rides.....but being a stranger I sure as hell would never ask you for one......
That's another thing I've come to accept from this thread, to call the cops in most cases even if I only had to draw and not fire. Not to sound cliche and not trying to give the impression I was raised in the roughest hood, but where and how I grew up, you rarly call the cops unless you had to, and if someone isn't extremly hurt due to someone else, dead, or you are confident someone is about to be dead then you just don't need the cops. To give something to compair against, where I lived before you would hear gun shots at least every other week if not once a week, and this is seriously not an exaggeration. Break-ins of homes were common and frequent, as vehicle theft were as well and getting jumped was tend to be expected when there is a group loitering. The house I lived in in this area was actualy broken in about 5 times, needless to say what we had was to some value to us and we lost nearly everything about 5 times. Hell, they even stole the pork chops we had in the freezer. Ehh, I can go on and on. Called the cops everytime we were robbed, never saw or heard anyone caught for it. One time we got robbed they either took everything or broke everything but a statue of the Virgin Mary, I was pissed, shocked, and scared all at the same time but when I saw that statue that before sat on the mantle sitting in the middle of the room on the floor upright and unbroken all of those feelings subsided.....except for being worried how and what we were going to do for tomorrow.....yeah....we were pretty poor....still to this day I don't know how my parents were able to handle all of that and still raise seven children to be decent people.....note that I said "decent" there's a coupld bad apples, but none are in jail and/or wanted by the law.
Here's another story. When I was about 12yrs old some dill weed pulled a shootie on me from across the street. I figured if he was determained to shoot it wouldn't matter much if I ran, so I stood there eyeballin him. After a few moments...about 5 secs of sighting me he turned around and went back inside his house. Didn't think or see much of it being that no one got hurt so I didn't call the cops. I actualy didn't tell anyone about it till about a year later. Kinda retarded now that I think about it, but it was kind of the code of the streets and the cops where the last people you would want to call.
Maybe those stories would assist in explaining the "handle your own" mentality.
And yes Sigma40Blaster I agree, anyone who simply just wants to shoot someone is friggin crazy.....but if you're crazy you're not suppose to be conceal carrying anyways(that was one of the questions on the CCP application) And for retreating in some situations if possible is available as an option to you then yes, of coarse take that option instead of poppin anyones head off just because they talked to you mean. Having that said, I do not plan or running away everytime someone comes at me wrong. I do believe you've got to stand strong and solid in some situations but others stand down, besides, that's one of the beliefs the US was built on. Granted you have the right to stand your ground, just doesn't mean you should all the time. Ok, try to imagine it, every single time some dude raises his voice and/or come at you wrong you turn and run. I would imagine most if not all is not planning to run every single time. So that leads up to my original question. If someone comes at you aggressivly and maybe at the begaining all it seemed like was some drunk dude bumpin his gums but befor you knew it he was advancing with a highly threatening demeanor and retreat was not an option(not saying you did not want to) keeping in mind you did not encourage or contributed in the guy's behavior, would you be justified in drawing? From what it sounds like, some of you guys may be suggesting to wait till he kicks your arse to see if he will stop or will it become a life threatening situation then draw.....after at least one rib is broken and you're slipping in and out of consciousness. So from what some have said, if in an altercation as such I should only defend with my bare hands and take the chance of the guy getting the better of me and take my gun. Ok, duly noted, but if you read or see me as a victim on the news my ghost is comming after you and you will never sleep well again.
Oh, spacemanspiff if I'm not mistaken what you quoted and your statement afterwards was pretty much the same idea, his was just a bit easier to take out of context.
*edit to add* (to spacemanspiff)...or where you quoting to support what he said? Ahh, can't tell anymore, lack of auditory tone of voice AND the over fervent of opinions and alfa-male behavior has made forum discussions not always, but usualy difficult and increases the fog-of-war thus tends to force you in assuming if not expecting every comment a negative one or the least a smartaxe one.
That's another thing I've come to accept from this thread, to call the cops in most cases even if I only had to draw and not fire. Not to sound cliche and not trying to give the impression I was raised in the roughest hood, but where and how I grew up, you rarly call the cops unless you had to, and if someone isn't extremly hurt due to someone else, dead, or you are confident someone is about to be dead then you just don't need the cops. To give something to compair against, where I lived before you would hear gun shots at least every other week if not once a week, and this is seriously not an exaggeration. Break-ins of homes were common and frequent, as vehicle theft were as well and getting jumped was tend to be expected when there is a group loitering. The house I lived in in this area was actualy broken in about 5 times, needless to say what we had was to some value to us and we lost nearly everything about 5 times. Hell, they even stole the pork chops we had in the freezer. Ehh, I can go on and on. Called the cops everytime we were robbed, never saw or heard anyone caught for it. One time we got robbed they either took everything or broke everything but a statue of the Virgin Mary, I was pissed, shocked, and scared all at the same time but when I saw that statue that before sat on the mantle sitting in the middle of the room on the floor upright and unbroken all of those feelings subsided.....except for being worried how and what we were going to do for tomorrow.....yeah....we were pretty poor....still to this day I don't know how my parents were able to handle all of that and still raise seven children to be decent people.....note that I said "decent" there's a coupld bad apples, but none are in jail and/or wanted by the law.
Here's another story. When I was about 12yrs old some dill weed pulled a shootie on me from across the street. I figured if he was determained to shoot it wouldn't matter much if I ran, so I stood there eyeballin him. After a few moments...about 5 secs of sighting me he turned around and went back inside his house. Didn't think or see much of it being that no one got hurt so I didn't call the cops. I actualy didn't tell anyone about it till about a year later. Kinda retarded now that I think about it, but it was kind of the code of the streets and the cops where the last people you would want to call.
Maybe those stories would assist in explaining the "handle your own" mentality.
And yes Sigma40Blaster I agree, anyone who simply just wants to shoot someone is friggin crazy.....but if you're crazy you're not suppose to be conceal carrying anyways(that was one of the questions on the CCP application) And for retreating in some situations if possible is available as an option to you then yes, of coarse take that option instead of poppin anyones head off just because they talked to you mean. Having that said, I do not plan or running away everytime someone comes at me wrong. I do believe you've got to stand strong and solid in some situations but others stand down, besides, that's one of the beliefs the US was built on. Granted you have the right to stand your ground, just doesn't mean you should all the time. Ok, try to imagine it, every single time some dude raises his voice and/or come at you wrong you turn and run. I would imagine most if not all is not planning to run every single time. So that leads up to my original question. If someone comes at you aggressivly and maybe at the begaining all it seemed like was some drunk dude bumpin his gums but befor you knew it he was advancing with a highly threatening demeanor and retreat was not an option(not saying you did not want to) keeping in mind you did not encourage or contributed in the guy's behavior, would you be justified in drawing? From what it sounds like, some of you guys may be suggesting to wait till he kicks your arse to see if he will stop or will it become a life threatening situation then draw.....after at least one rib is broken and you're slipping in and out of consciousness. So from what some have said, if in an altercation as such I should only defend with my bare hands and take the chance of the guy getting the better of me and take my gun. Ok, duly noted, but if you read or see me as a victim on the news my ghost is comming after you and you will never sleep well again.
Oh, spacemanspiff if I'm not mistaken what you quoted and your statement afterwards was pretty much the same idea, his was just a bit easier to take out of context.
*edit to add* (to spacemanspiff)...or where you quoting to support what he said? Ahh, can't tell anymore, lack of auditory tone of voice AND the over fervent of opinions and alfa-male behavior has made forum discussions not always, but usualy difficult and increases the fog-of-war thus tends to force you in assuming if not expecting every comment a negative one or the least a smartaxe one.
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It's not about "backing down" it's about backing down rather than using lethal force. If you must use lethal force in order to stand your ground, you are on pretty shaky ground. The only time anyone should ever use lethal force is when there is absolutely no other safe option. There are too many people on this forum who seem to want to find all sorts of exceptions to this one basic idea. And yes, letting criminals "get away with it" doesn't sit well on the average american psyche.
discussing and thinking about these things is the most valuable aspect of this forum. It helps to consider how you should react in certain situations before you are God forbid confronted with those situations, Understanding that sometimes you might have to do something that goes totally against your instincts is important.
discussing and thinking about these things is the most valuable aspect of this forum. It helps to consider how you should react in certain situations before you are God forbid confronted with those situations, Understanding that sometimes you might have to do something that goes totally against your instincts is important.
Ultima-Ratio
Moderator
Awards Time!
I have to award a trophy to the XD dudes story of drawing down on a female who he carefully didn't mention her age or size.
And another to WA for his quick judgment whilst knowing full well he'd drawn down on a drunk native (very common here), tho he sort of mentions it late in the thread.
BTW, some of the CCW schools teach that when someone is "inside your comfort zone" you should firmly say that you are feeling threatened and you are armed while taking a stance and a grip on your firearm. (Don't draw----YET)
Example three large males are approaching rapidly with both visual and verbal threats to dismember you.....worked for me up on Muldoon.
Verbal Judo is a skill used by many LEOs, learn it.
Ferchristsakes ya drew yer gun on a chick??!!!! Geeeeez!
I have to award a trophy to the XD dudes story of drawing down on a female who he carefully didn't mention her age or size.
And another to WA for his quick judgment whilst knowing full well he'd drawn down on a drunk native (very common here), tho he sort of mentions it late in the thread.
BTW, some of the CCW schools teach that when someone is "inside your comfort zone" you should firmly say that you are feeling threatened and you are armed while taking a stance and a grip on your firearm. (Don't draw----YET)
Example three large males are approaching rapidly with both visual and verbal threats to dismember you.....worked for me up on Muldoon.
Verbal Judo is a skill used by many LEOs, learn it.
Ferchristsakes ya drew yer gun on a chick??!!!! Geeeeez!
I was tought the same, as long as the situation allows it. Thankfuly I always open carry, and a black firearm against a white t-shirt, not hard to miss, especialy when the firearm is withing plain sight (I had my side turned to her as I was keeping my dog in the truck).
But yes, you should always announce whatever action you are about to take, if you are to take one. This way if anyone is around, they will be a great witness.
Kinda like if you are taking a suspect down, you yell out "quit resisting arrest" yelling that at them, so if anyone happens to see you they will come back and say "well he was saying quit resisting arrest and wrestling this guy on the ground.."
It won't make any difference. Unless you're a cop, you're going to be very unhappy with the results of yelling about "resisting arrest" while you try to subdue a fellow citizen. Things won't get better when the REAL cops show up you start talking to them about "suspects".
I'm curious about this inverse proportionality you apparently believe exists between ubiquity and danger. How rare does something have to be before you allow that it could pose a threat?
Silentarmy
New member
He was hoping to be untill someone important realized that this was a Dangerously immature Cadet and flagged him for a No-Hire!
Sigma 40 Blaster
New member
Tricon45, yeah, I'm really a tall fat man...crack heads are not easily intimidated, meth freaks even less. There are a few panhandlers around here who do not take no for an answer gracefully.
I probably went a little far in describing how far I'd go to avoid a confrontation but giving up some space to determine if there's a real threat or it's someone having a bad day or goofing on you is important. I wouldn't necessarily turn my back and run but I would move as fast as I could for some cover and physical separation.
Anyone remember the thread from the guy on the forum who got "punked" by some young black kids while he was getting into his car? Some say those guys shoulda been killed, I personally don't want something like that on my head...nor shooting someone who's car just broke down and is super pissed and mad at the world at the moment.
Give up some space, give a verbal warning to stop. I'm not really in favor of saying "I'm armed...stop or I'll shoot" because you just showed your full house to someone who just hit his flush and might be feeling strong.
At that point probably try to get on the other side of a car or something to put a physical barrier between you make them become aggressive enough that there's no doubt in your mind they mean you harm...if that's not possible brandishing might be the only option IF you have no other means to secure yourself or get to relative safety if the individual continues to pursue. All of that will probably happen in three seconds or less.
There are a hundred variables like where someone's hands are, how their eyes look (nuts or calm and collected) and other things that we can't really spell out on a forum.
I probably went a little far in describing how far I'd go to avoid a confrontation but giving up some space to determine if there's a real threat or it's someone having a bad day or goofing on you is important. I wouldn't necessarily turn my back and run but I would move as fast as I could for some cover and physical separation.
Anyone remember the thread from the guy on the forum who got "punked" by some young black kids while he was getting into his car? Some say those guys shoulda been killed, I personally don't want something like that on my head...nor shooting someone who's car just broke down and is super pissed and mad at the world at the moment.
Give up some space, give a verbal warning to stop. I'm not really in favor of saying "I'm armed...stop or I'll shoot" because you just showed your full house to someone who just hit his flush and might be feeling strong.
At that point probably try to get on the other side of a car or something to put a physical barrier between you make them become aggressive enough that there's no doubt in your mind they mean you harm...if that's not possible brandishing might be the only option IF you have no other means to secure yourself or get to relative safety if the individual continues to pursue. All of that will probably happen in three seconds or less.
There are a hundred variables like where someone's hands are, how their eyes look (nuts or calm and collected) and other things that we can't really spell out on a forum.
Deaf Smith
New member
Sigma,
I think you are talking about 'Signs of impending emotional disturbance'. We teach such in CHL classes. You know, far off stare, heavy breathing, fist closed, slured or loud speach, etc... A whole bunch of them. If several are taken into context then there is a hint something is gonna happen soon.
Now as for retreating, different states have different laws (and Texas is now pretty much like Florida.) But even if the law says you don't have to retreat, keep in mind you will have to explain your actions to a Grand Jury at the least. If what you say to the cops and the GJ don't sound right, then it's 'tell it to the judge' time.
And just because a few here fell you should retreat does not make it moral or immoral or whatever. As they say, the people have spoken, and thus it is felt it IS moral to stand your ground, if need be, instead of retreat. I will also note that virtualy all retreat laws expect you to only retreat if you can do so in complete safety. They don't expect you to turn your back on a serious threat.
Here in Texas IF you have the legal right to be where you are, and IF you did NOT provoke the other person, then you don't have to retreat. But you still have to be in fear of your life and you will have to articulate this to the cops and GJ. Plus if it's not in your home you can still be sued for such as wrongful death (and even in your home it's a 'affirmitive defense'.)