is it unlawful?

T

TRiCoN45

New member
Hey guys, this may seem like a rediculous question to some of you guys, but is it unlawful to draw on someone if their hands were empty(from what you can see) and they approached you agressivly and you were under the impression they may attack you? I emphasize MAY, meaning there is a chance but you are not 100% sure, but they are aggressive.

I ask because if I was concealed and someone was approaching agressivly, wouldn't it be a bad thing even to get into a fist fight(not that you would want to) while carrying? They may get a hold of it. Law from what I understand says justified shooting is only when your life or someone elses life is in immanent threat, and if some guy was maybe attempting to attack me with bare fists, how would I know he wasn't going to try to cause major harm? And when and if I was finaly 100% sure, itd be too late because to be 100% sure he would have to be on top of me beating me senseless. By no means am I suggesting I don't mind getting beat up, I like fighting, and/or I can't fight. Though it may not sound like very much but the last time I got into a fight was an unexpected jump with 6 of them and 1 of me(cowards). I didn't "win" but I would definitly have to say I didn't "lose" either, I was actualy smiling while it was going on and as well after....did get a few bumps though.

Of coarse before even attepting to draw I'd take a few steps back, both to see if the guy would stop plus give me room to draw if he continues to advance.

Anyone have any takes on the legality or suggestions on what is the best physical response to a situation as this? And please guys, although everyone may have their own opinion on things, lets keep this civilized. If you think drawing a gun at an unarmed potential assailant(don't quote me out of context) is not the apropriate approach, please be civil and state it with class and manors and explain why. I would hate to mistaken that the legaly armed citizans of america are all impolite axeholes.
 
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It's a good idea to carry something like a pepper spray for situations like this. You can use a pepper spray to stop the threat from a distance and you wouldn't have the trouble of proving you feared for your life against an unarmed assailant.
 
I am not a lawyer, and the law in this area depends on the state in which you live.

However, in general, if you think your life is in danger, regardless of which weapons are involved, you are justified in using your handgun. Realistically, if my life is in danger, I'll protect it and worry about the legal issues later.
 
I know this will be a pain, But you REALLY need to go down to your state AG's office and have a talk. I understand the confusion, and in general, you can get a good template of advice here. This has been gone over before. REALLY, REALLY - Get your answers right from the horse's mouth.
 
As stated, it varies by state. The safest (from a prosecutorial standpoint) rule of thumb in all 50 states is you can use or threaten lethal force only when threatenned with the same and retreat is impossible or would further endanger you.

Disparity of force comes into play, 200 pound man vs. 98 pound woman or handicapped, elderly, etc. An unarmed person may be a lethal threat to some, especially if the attackers outnumber the victim.

As stated, having a less than lethal option such as pepper spray is very good for that in between zone from physical confrontation to lethal force. In NY you are explicitely not allowed to use a gun for a punch in the face or threat of physical encounter where lethal force is not reasonably expected (as possibly determined by a jury.).
 
This is why im glad I weigh ~130 and have wrists the size of pencils. Almost anyone my age who is in any manner of shape could destroy me in hand-to-hand.

And if they could destroy me, and try to do so, I feel threatened most lethally. :)
 
Law here in Colorado does not dictate the posession of a weapon on the part of the perp being present in order to allow you to draw on an attacker.

If you have reasonable belief that someone is going to attack you and cause you bodily injury, you have (in Colorado) the right to pull your firearm and use it if they do not stop.

Just remember you have to prove that reasonable belief in court.
 
And here I thought we were innocent until proven guilty. D'oh. I watch too much Law And Order =/
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This was never the case. Ever. If it was, they wouldn't arrest you as a suspect and stick you in temporary lockup or keep you in jail during a trial.

If you are accused of a crime, sent to jail, get out on Bond, pay the Bondholder and are later acquitted, does the govt. ever pay anything back, make up for your time you spent in jail, possibly losing work, time, etc..? I don't think so.
 
It depends on the aplicable law and the "totality of the circumstances" viewed within the context of that law.

So what's TOTC? Everything, from your age, fitness level, perceptions, etc to that of the badguy(s) to that of any witnesses. Where you are and time of day will matter. Everything will be reviewed and weighed against the law. First by the cops, then by the DA's office, and finally if necessary by a judge and jury.
 
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Thanks everyone for the comments, it seems like everyone was on the same page. Handled yourselves with dignity and grace I might add. I suppose that does make sense, consider every aspect of the condition before drawing.....includng the BG's size. Deff would have to agree with the headache it would be to prove you were under a threat large enough to lethaly defend yourself, especialy if the guy turned out to be unarmed. Would just hate to fall into a situation where there was some guy trash talking infront of his buddies and decided to show them a "look-at-me" move and regardelss if I can overcome the guy or not, he would have a window of opportunity to obtain possession of my gun, or someone else for that matter. I will most deffinitly look up the law and/or ask someone of authority.

5-9 and 145lbs myself, so as you can also imagine there is plenty of idiots out there that think higher of themself in comparison. And me not being white nor black can contribute to a situation worth drawing. Can't say I've never been asked if I know kung-fu. Though I can pack a mean punch and swift as a cat,(maybe not as a cat, but something along the lines translated into human ability) those childish fighting-everyone-that-looks-at-me-or-my-friends-wrong days are over. Nonsense fighting will just result in shootings I've experienced. Bad for business and persona as well.


By all means keep the comments comming if there is any left uncovered. But thanks again for the contribution guys.
 
in general in most states the threat of deadly force is considered physical force. as such any situation in which physical force is justified threatening deadly force is also justified.

you have to weigh this with any brandishing laws and weather such a high risk step is worth them calling your bluff. you also have to weigh at what point in the continuum of force you are cause saying stop advancing or i will kill you and pulling your weapon in the same situation are two different things. just like hitting some one in the chest is completely different than hitting them in the head

if someone assaults you and attempts to take your weapon then your in a deadly force situation.

while carrying you should be prepared to be ridiculed called a coward chicken etc cause usually once a physical confrontation begins and they try for the weapon its all over for someone.
 
Very nice guys, thanks to you guys now I am actively searching for an adequate pepper spary or something of the like. In risk of sounding immature and/or childish, pepper spray would serve very well not only to defuse potential life threatening situations, but it also serves as a punishment to those who desire to inflict harm to others. Just imagine it,(unless you've already seen) some big cool guy wants to be the king pin of the group comes at you and discovers you raising your arm at him and suddenly they notice they can't see anything acompanied by extraordinary pain to the eyes and they start stubling and/or yelping in front of their not-too-impressed homies. Ha! Figured I'd throw in alittle creative thinking time.

Anyways, thanks again everyone for the suggestions.

And very true about timing....would hate to have the BG not withdraw but only to find out he wants to be a movie star and say "come on, do it" while waving both hands towards himself or pointing exactly where he wasn't the shots to be placed, yeah, very bad situation, and yeah, brandishing laws will prbably be violated. Ill just spray his dumb axe.

while I'm at it, what sprays do you guys suggest? Is there any specific designs I should look for? Prefferbly something that offers "quick draw" if that even exist. And also a spray that would reduce acidental direction discharge....yikes
 
Pepper Spray?

All of this talk about pepper spray defusing the situation worries me. I’d think it would have an excellent chance of escalating the situation, especially if you’re faced with a group of punks. If you spray one, you’re going to get the rest really fired up.

Does anyone have experience in a situation like this?
 
Though there are chances of getting the rest of his group more upset and may incurage involvment to an attack, in them doing so you the CC would be justified in shooting and would be alittle easier to prove you had right in defending yourself with deadly force due to a multipul attack situation. I'm sure there will be difficulties still, but better to try to deffuse a singleman attack with pepper spray and have a chance to dispurse the problem then getting into a physical fight with the one guy and give him a chance to take your gun and/or reacting right away to the single man attack with deadly force. Just my thoughts, but yeah, I agree with you, I'm sure there are chances to escalate a single man attack into a multi attack with use of the spray, but I see spray as a "buffer" and would rather take the smaller risk with the buffer then jumping right into drawing or getting into a physical fight right away.

*edit* yeah, I would imagine some has experienced this situation or something simular, please share with us and also include what lead up to the situation and what the conclusion of it was.
 
I only had to draw my gun once in my lifetime.

Woman got agressive raising her tone of voice, and comming at me with one hand in her pocket, wearing baggy sweatpants. Unknown what she had in her pocket, and she failed to walk away, step back, or lower her tone, and didn't remove her hand from her pocket.

Overall, it matters on how it all plays in court. And if the police are involved, and how they see the situation, and how they write the report.
 
I take it there was no LEOs involved in your altercation? Thanks for sharing. If I'm not mistaken you(MyXD40) were the one who said you would (and I'm not quoting) confront the armed BG even if you yourself were not in immediate threat to avoid the BG from possibly shooting someone else and/or engaging in a high speed chase with the cops and possibly harming others correct? If so, cool beans, lets be friends haha.

Anyone else ever had to draw/discharge firearm/pepper spray anyone due to aggressive relentless advancing?


*edit* oh, and for me saying "lets be friends" I'm not implying I would do the same, not that I wouldn't, quite honestly I couldn't say what I would do. Just figured if I'm around someone that has that mentality I'd probably be safer from the BG haha
 
I take it there was no LEOs involved in your altercation? Thanks for sharing. If I'm not mistaken you(MyXD40) were the one who said you would (and I'm not quoting) confront the armed BG even if you yourself were not in immediate threat to avoid the BG from possibly shooting someone else and/or engaging in a high speed chase with the cops and possibly harming others correct? If so, cool beans, lets be friends haha.
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No LEOs were involved correct. But I'm friends with many of them and told them all about the situation and they all agreed I did well, and like me, am glad no one got hurt or anything.

And yes, I'm the kind of person, I will use deadly force if need-be in order to protect the lives of others, if the situation allows for it. Why should the clerk behind the counter be shot and killed because she's the one with the access to money, yet I'm the one laying on the ground who lives because I was just there to do business, I have no possible means to advance this BG's life..


and as far as my story goes, I got a lot of heat from members over on I think XDtalk.com for what I did, with the crazy woman who came at me. I no longer participate in that forum because a lot of the guys over there are a complete whack job.

Summary of that night, I was playing fetch with my dog on the main roadway infront of my company paid house, in an industrial area. I was managing a storage faclity at the time. This road was nearly dead at night time. But also on the bad side of town too. A I was throwing the ball down the street, and as my dog was running back, I seen someone in a white shirt walking up the sidewalk, a block down. So I put my dog in the back of my pickup truck, waiting for this person to pass. I was wearing dark blue jeans, white t-shirt, XD40 at 3 o'clock in a secure holster.

She comes walking up, wearing a white/gray shirt, and baggy white sweatpants. She walked up to me, asking me for a ride soemwhere. I told her no I couldn't help her out, and kept playing with my dog in the bed of the truck. She started to raise her voice, begging me to give her a ride, and she'll make my night, and again i told her to just leave, I can't help her out. She didn't like this, so stepping closer to me, she was starting to get into my personal space about 7 feet out. I closed the tailgate on my truck, telling her it's best that she leaves. She then started to argue with me, as I told her to stop, and just leave, I can't help her out. She then put her hand in her pocket, and raised her voice, aruging with me why I can't give her a ride. I told her AGAIN, cant help her, back up and walk away, nicely too. I wasn't be mean at ALL. She started taking lil baby steeps to me, and my dog started to growl at her. So keeping one hand on my dog keeping him in the bed of ny truck, she started to walk closer to me, with her hand in her pocket, I told her to stop right there and take her hand slowly out of her pocket. She just wanted to argue and yell at me. With the tone of her voice, and things she was saying, she started to walk to me, with hand in her pocket, I drew my gun, keeping it pointed downword, and she threw her hands up in the air, and started yellin something, calling me names, and walking away. I'm glad I didn't have to go further with her, but I believe I was in full right to do what I had to do. I used my firearm as a threating tool, not pointing it at her, and also preparing myself incase she was to pull out whatever she had in her pocket, and possibly harming me.

I knew something wasn't quite right either when my dog started to growl at her. He's a pure black lab, very friendly. And as he was in the back of my truck, I knew he wanted to attack her, but I didn't want to let him do that, incase she didn't have anything. Then I'd have to go to court, possibly loose my dog for bitting a harmeless person blah blah blah.

I'm sure I'll have a few haters here on this fourm too becasue of this and my actions! :rolleyes:
 
TRiCoN45, you passed a CCW course for where you are? If so, wasn't use of force covered? If you draw or shoot an unarmed assailant, your buttocks are grass and he or his next of kin will be the lawn mower.
 
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