Is it harmful to...

[James K]

Without the slide in place many (maybe most) auto pistol hammers are stopped by the frame. Depending on the gun, either that part of the frame will upset and possibly interfere with slide movement or even keep the slide from being reinstalled at all. Or, worse, the hammer will bend or break out that web, and possibly prevent the magazine from being inserted.

In any case, don't drop the hammer of a pistol without the slide in place. To muffle the noise of the hammer fall, simply cut a piece of rubber (kitchen mat or something similar) that will be the right size to fit tightly into the cutout in the slide.

Jim

 

[Uncle Malice]

The soft item in front of the firing pin works well. I've used that method quite a bit. What I usually do is tear a piece if napkin and fold it into tight little wad and wedge it into the little channel where the hammer hits the firing pin. After several dry fires the hammer should really cram it in there. It should last you quite a bit.

I have also used a small rubber washer on occasion, but the napkin route easy. Nothing special to dig up if you don't have one handy.

 

[JohnKSa]

In general, it is never a good idea to let the hammer fall if the gun is not fully assembled. There's a significant amount of energy in the hammer and without the gun fully assembled, the parts that stop the hammer fall are not the parts designed to do so. Broken/damaged parts can result.

If I'm going to be doing a significant amount of dryfiring, I usually use a snapcap and often put a piece of rubber in the hammer channel of the slide to cushion the fall. It will very slightly alter the DA pull on a DA/SA or DAO pistol but it does not change the SA pull, and the DA pull is not altered enough to be concerned about.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

It will very slightly alter the DA pull on a DA/SA or DAO pistol but it does not change the SA pull, and the DA pull is not altered enough to be concerned about.

I don't understand why it would AFFECT either the DA or SA trigger, in any way, as the only thing being change is how far/hard the hammer drops after it's released.

What am I missing? (It won't be the first time I've missed the obvious...) (Or is it simply the fact that the hammer hasn't returned FULLY to it's uncocked position?) If that's it, you're right -- the DA pull is not altered enough to be concerned about.

 

[JohnKSa]

The DA trigger pull lifts the hammer in addition to dropping it. The thickness of the rubber pad alters (shortens) the distance that the hammer must be lifted and therefore it very slightly alters the DA pull.

It's a little like putting a hammer on half-cock to reduce the DA pull except this is a much smaller effect--like putting the hammer on 1/10th or 1/20th cock. The difference is there, and maybe it's even detectable, but it's not going to affect the value of DA dryfire practice.

The SA pull is unaffected since the hammer must already be cocked before the SA pull can do anything.

 

[Pond James Pond]

??? How? Trigger reach is a function of when the hammer and sear are engaged. The trigger would never know you put a pad where the hammer lands when it falls.

But the mainspring will.

If I put something under the hammer it alters the when the trigger takes up the pressure of the main-spring, in the same way as the trigger feel is different uncocked, half-cocked and fully cocked.

Even if the difference is slight, those first few mm of DA travel are the ones that I find hardest to manage and so those most important to work with in my DA pull.

Just saw JohnSKa's post and that is what I was trying to describe.

 

[ritepath]

Take a foam earplug mash it into the recess where the firing pin is. Thump away...

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Even if the difference is slight, those first few mm of DA travel are the ones that I find hardest to manage and so those most important to work with in my DA pull.

I somehow I got the impression that your primary purpose was to smooth the trigger and you just didn't want the associated noise to be a problem. That seemed to be the case in your initial post... Things have changed?

I'm not sure that the earliest millimeters of travel are as important as your control of the trigger as you get closer to the release point -- and that applies ONLY to the first shot of a string. The CZ goes to SA after the first shot, and your dry-firing has no role in improving the SA trigger break. A slightly lighter hammer (main) spring will give you better control with the DA pull, and let you do it with less effort. There's bound to be a source for springs in Europe, somewhere. I know that shipping from the U.S. can be an issue as many vendors don't want to be troubled.

Your only other option, if you think that tiny bit of early hammer travel makes a difference, is to get some good snap caps and dry fire. A-ZOOM is the best... but snap caps won't reduce the noise at all. There'll still be nose with many of the other options mentioned, too, but snap-caps are probably the loudest.

You might consider dry firing with the gun and your hand wrapped in a pillow or blanket (loose enough to allow the hammer to move), but thick enough o muffle the noise. Do a couple of hundred pulls a night for a couple of weeks and your hand strength will be improved and the action will be noticeably smoother.

(A grip strengthener might also help -- those things you squeeze...)

 

[44 AMP]

Seeing as the reach on the CZ DA trigger is a bit of a stretch for my index finger, I am trying to get a bit more strength in the flex of just my finger tip to start the trigger pull with a good firm grip of the gun.


Quote:
Dry firing is about practicing trigger control, sight picture and breathing, not smoothing the action.

I agree all those former points benefit, but many have said that dry-firing improves the feel of the trigger on CZ75s and I've not read many disagreeing with that. Dry-firing also improves the strength in my forearm for longer stages as explained above.

Lets get a couple of points clear, Dryfiring vs. cycling the gun. Traditionally, dryfiring is marksmanship practice, doing everything you would do as if you were shooting, only without ammo in the gun. Good training when done right.

Cycling the DA action to improve its feel, or your feel with it is a slightly different matter. A lot of DA guns have the feel of the DA trigger pull improve, sometimes quite a bit after several hundred or thousand cycles (depending on many factors) without any kind of trigger job, or action work, or even disassembly of the gun.

I have a Browning BDA 45 (Sig P220) bought in 1980. No action or trigger work or any other kind of "tuning" has ever been done on it. I just used it, and I rarely shot it using the DA pull. I did 'cycle" the DA pull a bit at home (dryfire) a bit, from time to time. Nothing extensive, just a few pulls here and there. Somewhere in the mid-late 80s I realized that the DA trigger pull felt a lot lighter. Now, it might have been me, "growing stronger", but since I didn't notice any similar change with an of my other (similar) guns, I think it was that gun's DA pull "smoothing out" from being cycled. "Wearing in" if you want to call it that.

As to pulling the DA trigger with the tip of your finger, its tough. Using the center of your first joint or even the joint itself makes pulling the DA trigger easier, and I find it fine for the limited DA shooting I do. But, I can see how sticking to the same style of finger on the trigger every time, every gun can be advantageous. It just means more work on your part to master some guns than others.

It has been a long, long time since I had to worry about waking the baby, but I can still remember what it was like, and the things we went through, and you have my sympathies. Children are life's greatest joys, but babies are more joy for mom, than dad, I think.

Fear not, and have patience, there will come a time when they won't notice the sound of you dryfiring. Of course, by that time, there will be something else you like to do that you can't because it will wake the baby! hehehe

 

[Pond James Pond]

That seemed to be the case in your initial post... Things have changed?

No it has not.

In my initial post I spoke of smoothing the action and strengthening my pull. Changes in how the DA trigger feels would affect my ability to address the latter.

I will try to explain my reason for wanting this DA training as it seems to be causing some confusion.

Imagine you are hold the grip comfortably so that the gun is in line with your arm, making aiming quite natural. Now imagine that you extend your strong side index finger to apply pressure on the trigger in DA.

Now imagine that when your index finger's finger-print covers the trigger, the rest of the finger is pretty much straight and the finger tip is only just curved enough to engage the trigger.

In that position I have very little leverage and I can feel my finger strain to pull the trigger back far enough for my other knuckle joints to hinge, thus increasing my leverage.

Those first few millimeters of trigger travel in DA are heavy because I am effectively only pulling the trigger with the very tip of my finger, as if the rest of the finger were in a splint, until the trigger has moved far enough back for the "splinted knuckles" to bend.

By contrast, if I half cock the hammer, the trigger pull is a breeze.

 

[roadrash]

Azoom snap caps muffle the sound of my striker fired guns being dry fired.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Azoom snap caps muffle the sound of my striker fired guns being dry fired.

After reading your comment, I tried a snap cap in a Glock, Ruger SR9 and a S&W M&P Pro. My snap caps are Tiptons, so there could be a noticeable difference between your snap caps and mine. But, using mine, the difference was hard to hear. Striker fired guns are pretty quite -- as most of the noise-making stuff is inside the slide or frame. I tried the same exercise with two hammer-fired guns, a SIG P228r and a CZ-85 Combat. The difference there was equally hard to hear -- but hammer-fired guns are noisier -- probably because the noisy stuff is hanging out there at the end of the slide and easy to hear.

I suspect the Pond, James Pond's problem isn't really the LOUDNESS of snap-cap use, but the noise's PRESENCE: if you're in the room watching TV, reading, listening to music, etc., the persistent (sometimes rapid) sound of the hammer falling can be irritating. (Or so my wife has told me...) A rubber o-ring would reduce the noise a bit, but Agent Pond doesn't want to shorten the trigger pull. Finding some other way to muffle the sound is probably a more effective course of action.

Those first few millimeters of trigger travel in DA are heavy because I am effectively only pulling the trigger with the very tip of my finger, as if the rest of the finger were in a splint, until the trigger has moved far enough back for the "splinted knuckles" to bend.

A different perspective: training yourself to use an awkward, overlong trigger pull -- and that's the best way to describe the CZ DA/SA models DA trigger -- seems like an unnecessary exercise and waste of time, as only 1 of 15 or 16 shots (if you have hi-caps) will ever require the DA trigger. And it's very possible that strengthening that finger, alone, won't do the job. Some alternatives:

1. While import constraints are a problem, you should see if you can get one of trigger pull length reduction kits offered by firms here in the U.S. (That might not work if you can't do the work yourself, but contacting CZ's Custom Shop here in the US might be helpful, as they have a lot of connections to people and firms on your side of the world.)
   
2. The PCR and P-01 use a slightly different trigger with a greater curve, and that trigger shortens the pull a bit, too -- maybe enough to solve your problem. That trigger can be easily swapped for your existing trigger and you can probably order that from CZUB.
   
3. Another option is even less troublesome: you can start (and carry) with the hammer on the half-cock notch. The ONLY difference between the standard 75B starting on the half-cock notch and a PCR or P-01 starting there is that the half-cock notch is not mentioned as a starting position in either manual but it's the standard starting position for the PCR and P-01. Starting any CZ from the half-cock notch shortens and lightens the trigger pull -- and it may just be enough.

The 75B-based decocker CZs start from and decock to the half-cock notch but have no extra safety features not present in the standard CZ. They arguably have one less: the decocker models have only one hammer hook (one is removed to make room for the decocker mechanism) while the standard model has two. Don't let anyone try to convince you that it's less safe to start from the half-cock notch unless that person can also convince you the PCR or P-01 are less safe, too..

All of the "B" CZs have firing pn blocks, so there's no risk of an accidental discharge if the gun is dropped (regardless of the hammer position): if you don't pull the trigger fully to the rear, the gun can't fire.

Perhaps just getting one of the hand/finger exercise tools used by ball player and tennis players to strengthen your hand will help -- it will be much less noisy!

 

[JohnKSa]

Even if the difference is slight, those first few mm of DA travel are the ones that I find hardest to manage and so those most important to work with in my DA pull.

I use a piece of soft rubber, about 1-2mm thick, cut to fit in the hammer channel. I'm sure it affects the DA pull slightly--in theory it must--but I can't tell any difference in practice.

If you're worried that the pull weight will be too light for adequate practice, get some rubber bands and loop them around the front of the slide and then around the back of the hammer. Add bands until you get to the desired pull weight.

 

[Pond James Pond]

A different perspective: training yourself to use an awkward, overlong trigger pull -- and that's the best way to describe the CZ DA/SA models DA trigger -- seems like an unnecessary exercise and waste of time, as only 1 of 15 or 16 shots (if you have hi-caps) will ever require the DA trigger. And it's very possible that strengthening that finger, alone, won't do the job. Some alternatives:

There are reasons those solutions, aside from the omnipresent export/import, can't really work for me and the revolve around IPSC.
Half-cocked is forbidden as are changes the trigger if hoping to stay in "production" class. DA pull is often needed for the first shot if ready condition is loaded chamber.

If you're worried that the pull weight will be too light for adequate practice, get some rubber bands and loop them around the front of the slide and then around the back of the hammer. Add bands until you get to the desired pull weight.

This may well work. I'll give it a go.

 

[JohnKSa]

If the first part of the DA trigger pull is the hardest that suggests that some of your problem may be related to trigger reach. There are slim-profile grips available for the CZ line that may help with that.

 

[Pond James Pond]

There are slim-profile grips available for the CZ line that may help with that.

Also worth a look. A shame, though, as the standard rubber ones are really good.

Perhaps I have get finger extensions... Why ruin a perfectly good gun when cosmetic surgery can resolve the problem?

 

[Walt Sherrill]

There are reasons those solutions, aside from the omnipresent export/import, can't really work for me and the revolve around IPSC.
Half-cocked is forbidden as are changes the trigger if hoping to stay in "production" class. DA pull is often needed for the first shot if ready condition is loaded chamber.

You've added restrictions and conditions that weren't mentioned before.

Slimmer grips are allowed in production. The PCR trigger, which is a stock CZ trigger, may be legal. The IPSC guidelines say, "Original parts and components offered by the OFM as standard equipment, or as an option, for a specific model handgun on the IPSC approved handgun list are permitted..." CZUB's customer service should be able to address that point, as the CZ PCR trigger may be an option for the 75B -- and CZUB may even know for sure whether IPSC will allow the trigger change.

You can also, in Production, start with a loaded chamber and hammer down, thumb-cocking the weapon as you draw it. ("Production" Special Condition 15 -- no penalty applies.) With practice this can be both quick and safe. (It's what the folks did with revolvers for many, many years.) That might be a better thing for you to practice given all of the limitations and restrictions you've described. You'd have to manually decock in front of the IPSC officer on the line, before you start, but that's something you should practice, anyhow. With the gun cocked as you draw, you deal only with the SA trigger, and you don't worry about the DA/SA transition. Initial groups tend to be smaller.

If you can find no other solutions, the trigger pull length remains a problem, and you still want to shoot Production, you may just be out of luck. If so, you might consider getting the decocker version of the 75B, the 75BD. If you have gun sites in your area, you might be able to work out a trade... That gun would be legal and solve most of your problems. How CZ decocks -- using the lever -- makes the half-cock notch use a non-issue according to the Production guidelines. A P-01 or PCR might even be better.

Swapping with someone who wants a 75B with safety could be inexpensive, but selling yours and buying a new one won't be cheap. Neither will shooting Production: travel costs, ammo, and time away from the family all have their costs, unless you just do it very infrequently. On the other hand, time away can be nice -- a mini-vacation -- and if done less frequently, costs can be managed.

Several friends, over the years, have tried CZs and found the trigger to be an insurmountable hurdle. They could shoot in a "gun game" class that allows cocked and locked starts [like IDPA Enhanced Service Pistol], but most don't want to do that. Most of them just ruefully shake their heads, bypass CZs and go to other guns, instead.

 

[Pond James Pond]

You've added restrictions and conditions that weren't mentioned before.

Only because they weren't relevant to the OP.

They've become relevant through the evolution of the discussion. Initially, I simply wanted to practice my trigger motion quietly and aim/form was not the main objective but rather breaking-in the action whilst strengthening my trigger pull at its weakest point.

You can also, in Production, start with a loaded chamber and hammer down, thumb-cocking the weapon as you draw it. ("Production" Special Condition 15 -- no penalty applies.)

Looking at the 2015 Edition, it seems that cocking the hammer on a "chambered, hammer down" stage is actually a procedural penalty.

I could look into the PCR trigger but am sure it would be a hassle to get hold of here... like most things that are not run-of-the-mill stock.

 

[W129]

+1 to redhologram post #8

I'm going to ask from a mom's point of view here.. (Although my son is a teen now, I recall vividly his baby days...) How old is the baby? How far away from the sleeping baby are you dry firing? If you are in a different room with a closed door, a noise like that shouldn't wake the baby. And besides, babies aren't meant to be tiptoed around while sleeping. They need to learn to adapt to normal household noises, etc.
Have yall thought about putting an electric air cleaner (not humidifier or vaporizer, just an air cleaner with a filter, no water involved) in the baby's room? It provides a nice, soothing white noise and can mask noises outside their room to help them sleep better.

Amen, my wife wanted silence when my daughter was sleeping. I went the opposite route by playing loud music to put her to sleep. She can sleep through just about any noise to this day.

My logic was that we had a terrier\lab mix dog that barked at anything that moved outside the house. I refused to disconnect the doorbell and muzzle the dog because I knew that would lead to her waking up for every little noise.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Looking at the 2015 Edition, it seems that cocking the hammer on a "chambered, hammer down" stage is actually a procedural penalty.

You're right. What was a special exception in the 2014 rulebook is now gone. (Wonder why?)

Get yourself one of those grip/finger strengtheners -- squeeze tools -- in the meantime. Here's one, and you can probably find it in your area. http://www.prohands.net/

Click on the picture of a handgun when you open the site... then click on handgun among the choices at the bottom of the page. That'll take you to actual exercises using the tool.