CarlosDJackal
New member
FWIW, most of the handgun courses, as well as the shotgun and carbine courses, I have attended emphasized the Upper Center of Mass (UCOM) as the primary area you should place your rounds in.
Is anatomy taught in handgun SD classes?
- Thread starter Danindetroit
- Start date
When speaking of knowledge of anatomy in the context of self defense we are not speaking of that which is necessary to be a Navy corpsman or a surgeon, but what is potentially beneficial in varied circumstances, against varied antagonists, etc.
As well as bullet type and construction (pistol and rifle) this can be injected into the practical topic of the specific effects, likely or not, of the specific target areas. Like what can and cannot be expected of a CM hit that rips the aorta as opposed to a solid CNS hit. Or should a headshot be deemed necessary, where to aim from all angles.
These are the reasons a knowledge of anatomy is potentially beneficial, not as merely mapping the skeletal, cardiovascular system etc - but their merits and effects as targets with various firearms and bullets.
As well as bullet type and construction (pistol and rifle) this can be injected into the practical topic of the specific effects, likely or not, of the specific target areas. Like what can and cannot be expected of a CM hit that rips the aorta as opposed to a solid CNS hit. Or should a headshot be deemed necessary, where to aim from all angles.
These are the reasons a knowledge of anatomy is potentially beneficial, not as merely mapping the skeletal, cardiovascular system etc - but their merits and effects as targets with various firearms and bullets.
Danindetroit
New member
So you think that a standard target, is good enough for law enforcement?
I am thru trying to explain my point to you Dan. You definitely are not trying to understand and personally I don't think you want to. If you think it is valid then all the power to you. Waste your $$$$. Take the course. Buy the stupid T-Shirt so you can visualize vital organs as you practice drawing and dry firing in the mirror
Danindetroit
New member
I can't take the course, I have a bad back. I believe that the class does have merit. Most people who call things common sense usually have more knowledge than another person. Shooting a gun, is not common sense, it is practice, and training. I do not have a holster for my non-exsistant handgun, so I guess I'll stick to asking questions to expand my knowledge. I appreciate the responses of people that helped. I explained things to people that asked, and they understood. Other people explained things better than I could, and answered my questions very well. I have some good advice.
Dan I am not mad at you. I have stated that it is my personal opinion that the course is a scam. I also said that basic anatomy is general knowledge. Again I reiterate BASIC, not some dura matter like you asked so you could make me look like I didn't know what I was talking about. Furthermore you went on to talk about your grandfather who did not finish the 2nd grade, and knew deer anatomy to hunt. Well I'm not sure but I highly doubt he went to a class with a deer wearing a anatomical t-shirt so he can visualize in 3-D where the organs he needed to hit were. He had a lot of common sense.
Now you ask if practicing on standard targets for law enforcement is enough. Well I think you need to see it for what it is. I wuld rather have the police shoot accurately and quickly than to worry about visualizing in 3-D and try to hit a specific organ on a moving target. It is better to have LE practice on a moving standard target to get used to shooting at moving targets IMO.
If a law enforcement officer does not have enough comon sense to figure out where he needs to shoot, he is in the WRONG profession.
BTW , my range has silhouettes that are stooping, squatting, standing, turned to the side. I believe that this is enough. You may not.
Now you ask if practicing on standard targets for law enforcement is enough. Well I think you need to see it for what it is. I wuld rather have the police shoot accurately and quickly than to worry about visualizing in 3-D and try to hit a specific organ on a moving target. It is better to have LE practice on a moving standard target to get used to shooting at moving targets IMO.
If a law enforcement officer does not have enough comon sense to figure out where he needs to shoot, he is in the WRONG profession.
BTW , my range has silhouettes that are stooping, squatting, standing, turned to the side. I believe that this is enough. You may not.
Danindetroit
New member
There are many women law enforcement officers, and people who were men stated that they had a hard time visualizing certain shots. These people seemed to have common sense, other people said they had the knowledge already from other sources. Have you been to an academy, and shot to qualify? Shooting at a person on an angle and relizing that you have to not shoot where you think, could be hard to learn.
You thought this was good advice, what is wrong with a Dr. teaching it? You insinuate that from training you might not make the mistake, how much training is that? Training is not common sense.
It seems most people think a shootout will make thinking logically difficult. The only thing to fall back on is training, knowing where the heart is common sense, but knowing how to shoot when standing on the left side of a person, to hit the heart seems that training, and not thinking logically, and trying to figure out, how to hit it is best. It seems you can waste a whole mag, basically shooting a person in the front of the chest, missing the heart, if you did not practice for it.
It was noted above that those shirts were not even correct. That is because they were drawn by students, not the Dr. he has the students draw grade school anatomy, and these are mainly law enforcement people. The doc corrects, and helps with angles of attack, yes bullets do not go straight, but hopefully with this training you can get more than one shot on COM. The website insinuated that the anatomy was a short part of the course, and the range, and utilizing the knowledge, and backing it up was key. The picture do not do the course justice. The legal ramifications of this training, are of no concern.
I did explain my reason to people, and they were satisfied, they are people who I have disagreed with in the past, and "understood" why I asked. Or at least pretended to. So if novices, or LE people learning grade school anatomy offends you so much, go to the wesite, and e-mail the instructors, one is a police officer, engineer, has 17 years as a medical tech, Judo instructor, and is currently classified Sharpshooter in Stock and Enhanced Service Pistol, as well as Marksman with Stock Service Revolver. Seems like a pretty well rounded individual. The Doc is classified as Expert in Stock Service Revolver and Stock Service Pistol Divisions, and is currently IDPA’s State Coordinator for Wisconsin. Another person is a USMC veteran and full-time Deputy Sheriff, is highly active in Wisconsin’s law enforcement training community and is a Wisconsin Deptartment of Justice certified firearms instructor for his department, plus he is an active competitive shooter in IDPA, David holds numerous titles, including several State and Regional Championships. David is currently classified as Wisconsin's only 4-Division IDPA Master. Ayoob teaches here also. I guess these people have some credentials. They may just be fakes after money, the basic pistol class costs a whopping $95, the advanced class $175. Not exactly cheap, but I haven't priced any others. Some other classes in Ohio seemed very good also. I will definitely get Awerbuck's(SP) book. Thanks for everbody's interest, feel free to tell me about your qualifications also.
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XavierBreath
New member
OK,
6 years as a Navy Corpsman
134 days of combat
multiple mass casualties, and gunshot wounds
4 years of school to become a Registered Nurse
12 years of practice as an RN
2 years of advanced study to become a First Assistant to Surgeons
9 years of surgical practice
Being able to get your gun into play from concealment without shooting yourself is more valuable than knowing where intercostal spaces are.
When you are being shot at, being able to shoot moving targets while on the move yourself is much more valuable than knowing where the aorta is.
Even if you cannot get a COM shot, you are fortunate if you get one shot in anywhere and slow the guy down while you get to cover to make that COM shot.
People have to have a gimmick to get students into their classes or they make no money.
This is turning into a flame war. Please don't take it personally. I'm out.
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Ninjato,
Common sense enough? If common sense were enough, one would not need to discuss minutae like bullet construction, bullet weight, velocity and the relationship between the three when they impact human targets of different sixes from different angles, with or without obstructions. One could simply go to the store and "buy a box of ammo".
There are indeed many people who do just that; go out and "buy a box (or two) of ammo". But for others there is a direct relationship between the cartridges and loads they choose to load their defensive handguns with and their practical knowledge of human anatomy.
I have seen a fair amount of professional training material in print, photo and film that goes into this topic quite deeply. The agencies and individuals who use such material do not take the subject lightly or they would not waste their time with it.
Common sense enough? If common sense were enough, one would not need to discuss minutae like bullet construction, bullet weight, velocity and the relationship between the three when they impact human targets of different sixes from different angles, with or without obstructions. One could simply go to the store and "buy a box of ammo".
There are indeed many people who do just that; go out and "buy a box (or two) of ammo". But for others there is a direct relationship between the cartridges and loads they choose to load their defensive handguns with and their practical knowledge of human anatomy.
I have seen a fair amount of professional training material in print, photo and film that goes into this topic quite deeply. The agencies and individuals who use such material do not take the subject lightly or they would not waste their time with it.