Is anatomy taught in handgun SD classes?

LAK,

Definitely. But better than the 3% if only because at least you typically know when you are in dangerous game territory and can plan and gun up accordingly.

That 3%-er might be in the grocery store with you. Which, personally, isn't on the list of places I regularly carry my 12 guage. :D
 
Dan,
You've gotten all sorts of good answers and there is not much that I can add, but...

The training I've had didn't so much go into detail of organ location as much as remembering that the human body is not a flat sheet of cardboard and angles are terribly important. On a 3-D torso, COM may be the arm pit or right breast. If you're on your back shooting up your aim point might be the belly button - all to drive your bullet into that area behind the bullseye you typically think of on a 2-D target.

To quote one of my instructors, COM is where all the wires and hoses are - you want to sever wires and hoses to disable the human machine. Depending on the angle in a moving gun fight, the aim point could literally be any where.
 
Dan,

I keep mentioning Awerbuck. One of the neat things he does is staple the silhouettes so that they curve outward and then places the stands at angles to the shooter. That gives more of a "3D" feel and brings up the importance of moving and angling your fire so that rounds go as deeply into the target as possible, not just follow shallow peripheral paths.
 
My personal opinion....

If a person has no idea of basic human anatomy, that person needs more help than a gun can supply. isn't basic anatomy taught in grade school? :confused:

Basic human anatomy is just plain common knowledge. I don't even see the need for such a wasteful class for myself. Of course if I teach a firearm self defense class, this would be the perfect "rip-off" scam to the general unknowing public. Offering basic anatomy would make me a lot of $$$ if I base the whole premise of how important it is to know anatomy to defend oneself properly.
 
Please tell me where and what the dural mater is?

I am sure one of my wife's grandfathers, completed only the 2nd grade, but he was a good hunter, leased about 700 acres in the thumb to farmers, and worked into his 70's. He was a hunter, and shooter, I am pretty sure he knew about deer anatomy first hand, and most birds.

I do not even think one of my grandfathers attended school or spoke english, never stopped him from hunting, or owning businesses. 2 of his 3 sons served in the armed forces, and his only daughter also. He owned land on Harsen's island, and hunted it. Knowledge is helpful in just about everything.
 
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Which layer? I was hoping nj replied. Since it doesn't matter, and he was taught that in grade school, and the fact, that if it is not pierced you stand a chance of not contracting madcow disease. I have a reason for asking what I asked, it is personal, but if anyone has a problem with it, I will explain.
 
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I have taken a few defensive firearms classes and they didn't get real in-depth with A&P. As was mentioned, you shoot for center mass. If that isn't effective you go to your failure drill: transition to the head. It doesn't matter why it was ineffective: body armor or something else, the fact is that you fired two shots COM and they did not stop the threat.
As has been mentioned, actually hitting someone at all in a gun fight seems to be an issue. So, you aim for the largest and most stable target that just happens to contain many of the organs essential to human life.
I don't have a lot of education in A&P, but I have worked as a paramedic in a busy EMS system for 20 years and I have seen a few gunshot wounds up close and personal: possibly over 100. Based on my own experience with this, I completely agree with what I was taught in these gun schools: If your life is on the line, you shoot for the center of mass of whatever is visible. If it is two inches of shoulder peeking around the corner, you shoot it COM. If it is a foot, you shoot it COM. If the whole body is visible, you shoot it, COM. You put lead into the target as fast and as often as you can.
This is a very important concept that I am pretty sure, a lot of people have never given a whole lot of consideration. Why ? Because we tend to shoot on one dimensional targets that are facing us in correct anatomical position. It has been my experience that when confronted with a three dimensional target that is not facing me directly, I revert to my practice and try to shoot for the same spots on the target as I would in practice. For example, I might mentally tell myself I am shooting the target's third shirt button. BUT, if the target is not facing me, this might result in a superficial hit;even if I hit the third button. You need to shoot COM of whatever is visible to you. Another example with head shots: depending on what direction the person if facing, his right eye might be COM, or his ear might be COM: we tend to think in terms of forehead right between the eyes because this is what we see in training; normally.
This whole argument about COM vs. Center of Chest reflects the idea that we are thinking in a single dimension: that we are shooting at a target that is facing us and we can see the whole target. In reality, there is no error with the term COM: you shoot for the COM: if this happens to be a person facing you face to face and you can see their whole body, you shoot center of mass. Note we said, center of mass, not "take their height and divide by two". Mass means the big part: this is the trunk of the body. The trunk of the body has appendages, which are not part of the "mass". But we are now dealing with semantics: you shoot for the middle of whatever you can see and repeat as nessessary.
 
Thanks for the help, I need to get some videoes, I understand, but I need to actually see it, Bill Jordan sounds interesting, and Louis Awerbuck. There is no way I can attend a class, but at least a vide will help me. Thanks for the help.
 
Dr. Jim Williams who is an associate instructor for LFI teaches a class called "Tactical Anatomy" which is basically elementry anatomy for gunfighters. He posts on tacticalforums.com once in a great while. (DrJSW)
www.firearmstrng.com.

I believe John Farnam of Defense Training International has co-instructed courses with a physician and they cover many of the same issues, but I don't know that doctor's name.
 
Very neat, the aorta, looks pretty wide. I think I might have a long torso, so the hips look high to me, I think a glancing blow to the aorta, with "T" series loads, and the heart will get over 100 beats a minute, and drain a person, if the sudden loss of blood pressure, doesn't at least slow them down. I think they sell the T-shirts, for $15

Again thanks everybody.

TacticalAnatomyTShirt.jpg


This one shows things pretty well, I think, that is a little better rep, of the anatomy, of most people.
doc%20ron%20red.jpg


Tactical Anatomy Systems is a lethal force targeting method developed by an Emergency Physician with strong ties to the law enforcement community. Standard training targets used by most police forces for training and routine firearms qualification have little or no correlation to the vital structures of human anatomy. As a result, police officers often have only a vague idea of where to aim when faced with an armed, aggressive felon.

Training police to shoot for “center of mass” translates, in most officers’ minds, to “shoot somewhere in the middle”. This middle-muddle sets up the officer for failure—failure to hit vital structures, failure to neutralize the armed attacker, and by extension, failure to protect himself and the community from a dangerous criminal.
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I am sure it looks too physical for me, but maybe my wife can go, with a couple of people from work.
 
Danindetroit Senior Member Join Date: 10-01-2004 Location: Detroit Posts: 736 Please tell me where and what the dural mater is? I am sure one of my wife's grandfathers, completed only the 2nd grade, but he was a good hunter, leased about 700 acres in the thumb to farmers, and worked into his 70's. He was a hunter, and shooter, I am pretty sure he knew about deer anatomy first hand, and most birds. I do not even think one of my grandfathers attended school or spoke english, never stopped him from hunting, or owning businesses. 2 of his 3 sons served in the armed forces, and his only daughter also. He owned land on Harsen's island, and hunted it. Knowledge is helpful in just about everything.
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My statement was not an insult. You seem to take it that way and took what I said out of context. What grade your grandfather only completed has nothing to do w/ the context of what I said. The fact that he owned 2 businesses has nothing to do w/ this thread and basic human anatomy.

When I say basic, I meant BASIC. Brain, lungs, heart, stomach, liver. As long as the BG goes down after being shot in the head, chest, abdomen, torso which house the brain, heart, stomach, and liver respectively. Beyond that I keep shooting until the BG stops. The time it takes to aim to such a precise area on a moving target rushing at you at the rate of 10ft+/sec, aiming down is not happenning. If you have the time to aim, then the BG is way too far for you to legally shoot in most circumstances.

I never said knowledge is not helpful and my point is, if a person has no idea where the brain is, the heart is, the stomach is, then the person needs more help than an anatomy class offered at a shooting range.

BTW, the dural matter is the brain or the gray matter associated w/ the brain.
 
The Dural Mater, is one coverring of the cns just like shorts said, it is the outer layer, and covers the brain, and spinal cord. There are 2 other layers. They are also called Meninges, so spinal meningitis, is an inflamation of these linings, usually cause by a bacterial, or viral infection.

If a person has no idea of basic human anatomy, that person needs more help than a gun can supply. isn't basic anatomy taught in grade school? :confused:
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Yes law enforcement, and most people probably could use a refresher couse, on the 3-d aspect of shooting. How can people who have never gone to school receive this knowledge? What kind of help do they need? Your post seems to imply they are mentally defective, and do not deserve this knowledge. They should be able to get the training from a competent person, like this Dr. read up on his website, it is interesting, most people do not think this way, these shirts, could have helped a person, without a formal education, defend themselves. Even if they read poorly or not at all.

Other people spoke of this 3-d concept, but I needed to see it to understande some things. I have posted that I learn visually, diagrams, charts, pics.
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Yes law enforcement, and most people probably could use a refresher couse, on the 3-d aspect of shooting. How can people who have never gone to school receive this knowledge? What kind of help do they need? Your post seems to imply they are mentally defective, and do not deserve this knowledge. They should be able to get the training from a competent person, like this Dr. read up on his website, it is interesting, most people do not think this way, these shirts, could have helped a person, without a formal education, defend themselves. Even if they read poorly or not at all. Other people spoke of this 3-d concept, but I needed to see it to understande some things. I have posted that I learn visually, diagrams, charts, pics.
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Ok, it is obvious you simply refuse to understand my point. I said BASIC. If a person does not know where the brain is regardless of schooling, then the person IS mentally deficient. If a person is unaware that the lungs are in the chest cavity, regardless of schooling, then the person IS mentally deficient. There are just some things where common sense is all that is needed. Now if I was going into the medical field, then I can see the benefit of an anatomy class.

Like I said, it is a great money making scheme. I'd rather spend my $$$ on ammo and practice shooting.

You have made no point at all in asking me what the dural matter is other than to show prove I am wrong. I doubt the avrage person would know this but I am SURE if you ask anybody where their brain is they can show you.

Trying to tell a person who is not a gun enthusiast, who carries, and practices about once a month, to shoot at a moving target and try to aim at a certain "organ" is absurd imo. I am a martial arts instructor and back in the early '80s many martial schools started to teach self defense classes. Very quickly, it was realized that the average person just cannot apply the higher level techniques an accomplished practitioner can. It was then condensed into what we have today for women's self defense. The techniques are simple direct and work, unlike the overly intricate stuff from years past. My point.....Keep it simple...point, aim, shoot, and GET THE F OUTTA THERE!!!!!
 
Louis Awerbuck is the one that actually drove this point home to me about three dimensional targets. During the class, he discussed it and I listened and nodded my head. Then when we started going through the simulators, I did exactly what he said I would. I was so used to shooting flat paper targets that instead of holding COM, I was trying to shoot where the boxes would be on a paper target.
Louis has out a couple books. I am not sure about video tapes.
 
Louis Awerbuck is the one that actually drove this point home to me about three dimensional targets. During the class, he discussed it and I listened and nodded my head. Then when we started going through the simulators, I did exactly what he said I would. I was so used to shooting flat paper targets that instead of holding COM, I was trying to shoot where the boxes would be on a paper target. Louis has out a couple books. I am not sure about video tapes.
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This I can understand. Thanks for the tip. I will keep an eye out for this error when the situation arises at the range although maybe it is me being a career martial artist, I never really thought of a person as a 2 dimensional object. Being a hand to hand thing, you get the 3-D effect in your face. It is a good tip to watch for nevertheless.

I still think the anatomy class is clever scam. Business is business and there is a sucker born every minute. Just my opinion.
 
I want to state again, that I know anatomy pretty well. I can tell you where the LAD, the RCA and the circumflex are. I can tell you where the subclavians are, as well as the brachiocephalics. I can tell you what the thalamus is, the hypothalamus, and what the difference is. I am a scrub nurse. I have assisted in surgery. I have dissected. I know where things are in the human body, and the variations among individual people. I have seen surgeons go searching. I have spotted what they were looking for. I feel confident in my grasp of anatomy.

The two dimensional Tshirt guy is a joke, and I cannot believe a physician/instructor would be this ignorant. Actually, he's not. Teaching this type of anatomy for self defense with a gun is a gimmick. That is all it is, a gimmick. He's getting students and making money! He's smart! When T shirt guy turns sideways, his heart is NOT on the surface of his chest as depicted by the drawing on his shirt. His actual heart is obscured by his arm in a side view if the arm is down. His actual heart is 4-6 inches from that drawing on his shirt. Tshirt man is no different than that paper target, but now he has an aura of reality because he is presented as fact by a physician. What is next? Shooting specific areas of the heart with a .22LR to induce arrythmias? Yelling at the BG "Hey, face forward, so I can align my anatomical landmarks please!"?

This type of precision anatomy shooting is based on the assumption that a bullet will continue to travel in a straight line after it enters a human body. (At least I have to assume that this "instructor" does not really believe the heart is on the surface of the chest as his Tshirt depicts). Once a bullet enters a human body, all bets are off as to where it will go and where it will stop. You might be aiming for the bicuspid valve, and be right on target, and then that darned bullet decided to take a detour once inside the chest, and it ended up in the pyloric valve instead. Doggone it, now you have to shoot again, and the damned BG will just not hold still for you. This kind of anatomical marksmanship is founded on the idea that the bullet will continue to travel in a straight line after penetration. They don't. All it takes is one evening digging out bullets to realize that the straight line through the body idea is a myth.

This type of training could convince a gun ignorant jury that you had the training to shoot selectively and prevent the BG from dying. That is really dangerous! I can almost promise you in a lethal encounter you will be running, twisting, falling, tripping, and trying your damnedest to get as many rounds into your target's COM as you can, whether you have had this type of training or not. Since you attended Dr. Shootgud's classes though, the jury will look at all that training you got........Oh no, the BG could have been easily imobilized with a hit to the acetabulum. Now you are a murderer.

In a lethal encounter, the shooter trying to hit these dynamic anatomical targets will likely die. While he is taking the time to choose whether he would like to hit the SA node, the AV node, or some purkinje fibers, his opponent will be blasting his COM into oblivion.. He would be better trained if he had invested his time into quickly getting his gun out of the concealed holster without shooting himself, aligning his sights COM without shooting the ground in front of him, and putting two quick hits into an area 3 inches in diameter that is 15 feet away from him. It is hard enough to do that.

BTW it goes: skin, galea aponeurotica, skull, dura mater, arachnoid, and then pia mater. Then you get into grey or white MATTER.

edited to add: I'm sorry, I reread my post, and it sounded rather contrary to how I try to talk to people. I guess what I am trying to say is I know human anatomy very well, from years of hands on experience. I recognize that a 150 pound man's thoracic cavity will be different than a 350 pounders. I have been shooting most of my life, and have trained hard and well to defend myself. I have been in situations that had a high pucker factor. When in the military, I experienced incoming fire. I have to say, in all honesty, if I have another instance when I must defend my life, I will be putting my firearms training to use, not my surgical training. I do not believe that this type of training is of use to anyone with the exception of a sniper. In a self defense situation, I feel it is far more important to gain the initiative, get your gun safely into the fight, and avoid taking hits yourself while putting as many into the BG as you must to survive. Being able to hit moving targets while moving yourself is far more important than knowing anatomy. Everyone has a gimmick to get people into their classes. That is what I think this is. No offense meant to those who may find it interesting. :)
 
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My knowledge of anatomy is limited to what I learned in 9th grade biology. Allow me to summarize: the upper chest houses some pretty important stuff, as does the head. The spine runs down the center of the back.

When I attended my first block of instruction on fighting with a firearm I was advised that my target will most likely be facing me or be quartered away from me (ruling out shots to the spine), the head is small and moves around a lot (making it hard to hit) and I was advised to aim for the upper chest (where the important stuff resides). This sync'd with what my biology teacher taught me. (Common sense told me that if none of the "choice" portions of his anatomy were available, I should shoot what was until something better became available.)

I was further advised that a single hit from my weapon, particularly if it was a handgun, may not instantly incapacitate my opponent. In that event, I should continue to shoot into the upper chest and, if after multiple shots to the upper chest (the exact number to be determined by me), my opponent was still a threat I may want to consider putting rounds into a different portion of his anatomy. The two suggested were the head, understanding that it is small and moves around a lot, or the pelvis, which could make the bad guy fall down but not necessarily take him out of the fight. (This also sync'd with 9th grade biology). This seemed like sound advice and it is what I have been using for 10+ years. So far, no issues.

I no longer remember where the common perineal nerve is located or what vitreous humor is but I consider myself to have adequate anatomical knowledge to defend myself. I have to wonder what else anyone would need to know.
 
Blackhawk6 and XavierBreath......EXACTLY what I was trying to say before I was questioned to where the dural matter is :rolleyes: .
 
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