Is a fast draw the most important skill for deadly force encounters?

[Rangerrich99]

Well, how are we defining good hits? Because A-zone hits on an IDPA target are not the same as hits that stop a fight.



I’m saying being the first one to land a hit isn’t the same as winning the fight. I’m not sure how to make that any clearer?

The whole “fast draw s the most important skill” relies on an unrealistic belief that a pistol will stop a fight with the first hit; but I’ve reviewed a few shootouts and that rarely happens.



Around 80% of the people shot with a handgun in the U.S. survive.

Hey Bart, upon review, I think we're talking past each other to a degree. But I came off a bit snarky last night, and for that I apologize, my bad.

Anyways, I get what you're saying. Even good hits don't necessarily mean stopping the fight, and I agree with that.

For myself, I define "good hits," as inside a 6-inch by 10-inch rectangle vertically centered just below the collarbones down to about the solar plexus area. Any hits outside that area are bad hits as I score them, out to a distance of 12 yards. Beyond that I use a standard 8.5 x 11-inch sheet of paper, same placement on the target.

I also agree with you about the whole "a fast draw is the most important skill," thing. Which I believe I said in my first post. Just being first is irrelevant if you are just spraying rounds, or even if you just get periphery hits. I believe the hits have to be well-placed, though even marginal hits will probably be noticed and could give the attacker pause. It should also be noted that if the shooter does react/hesitate after being hit initially, that pause could give the defender the necessary time and opportunity to finish the job.

Here's what I believe is an example of what I was trying to describe. The robbery starts at about :43 seconds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr6UtCW5zZs

Now I can't tell you how fast the guard drew his weapon, but it was fairly quick, and I also don't know what kind of hit he got with his first shot, but the robber definitely noticed getting shot and it definitely ruined his plan. It also gave the guard a chance to gather himself and get additional hits, ultimately forcing the BG to retreat and allowing the guard to finish the job.

Now I'm not saying that every encounter will or should work out this way, my only point is that this guy had to get a hit from the draw in a very short time frame, and if he hadn't, he probably would've died that day.

And 20% is a relatively high percentage. I didn't say "most," just "many."

Anyway, the only point I originally was really trying to make was that, IMHO, there is value to becoming adept/expert at your drawstroke, assuming adequate marksmanship, of course. But I'm aware that there's no magic pill when it comes to gunfights, and a "lightning quick draw" is not necessarily going to dictate anything about the outcome of a fight.

Anyhow, if I came off as a PITA, it was unintentional. Think I'm just going stir-crazy over here, not being able to go fishing this last three months.

 

[Leaf]

One of the ways I like to describe it is that you need to be able to take your time in a hurry.

 

[HiBC]

We all have to work out exactly how we carry. About every system trades something for something else.
Example,tucked IWB might be concealable,it might not be so fast,and "untucking" might be a signal to the bad guy.

I have a kydex pocket holster that ,whether in my jacket pocket or front pants pocket,allows me to wrap my hand around the grip discretely any time something does not seem right.Gun stays in the holster,finger can't touch the trigger,everything is concealed,and I can look natural and relaxed with my hand in my pocket.

In many/most concealed carry arrangements,the time consuming/frantic/exposed part is getting the gun hand to the grip.

I don't make any claim to being a Jerry Lewis/Sammy Davis fast draw.

But I start from pretty much "low ready" without revealing I'm armed.

As far as first shot vs first good hit, IMO,it would be a LOT harder to deliver a good hit after taking a hit.

Its just an amusing,entertaining "B" western, but Willie Nelson in the movie "Barbarosa" addresses this to a degree.Keeping your head and cool,and smoothly tending to business beats frantic wasted effort.


I;ve never been in a gunfight.I have dealt with an up close and personal bear that had already injured my wife,who was close enough I backed him off by just "counting coup" across his face. I was surging adrenaline,> I recall things being rather slow motion. I selected his nose as I focused on the bead. After the first sho the went down and got back up.,As he shook his head,I saw the axis of rotation as his spine and put the bead on it. I severed his spinal cord deliberately.

He was dead. I suspect I could have emptied that Win 97 12 ga very quickly on "center of mass" without immediately putting that bear down.

 

[JohnKSa]

I'm going to take a step back and look at this from a slightly different standpoint.

Whether or not a fast draw is important for deadly force encounters, a safe, well-practiced and "competent" draw is critical.

In other words, whether or not you think it's important to practice for speed, you still need to practice for smoothness and competence with your normal carry rig and (if applicable) cover garments.

You may not need to be fast, but you do need to be able to consistently clear your cover garment and get a good grip on the gun before you start the draw.

You don't have to try for speed, but you do need to make sure you don't get your finger on the trigger too soon and that you don't sweep your support hand (or any other body parts you want to remain unshot) during the draw.

Getting the gun out of the holster blindingly fast may not be terribly important but you do need enough practice that you can get a consistent grip with your support hand and that you don't have to waste time getting the gun indexed on the target.

In other words, if you're reading this thread and are relieved that lightning speed on the draw doesn't seem to be tremendously important in real-world self-defense encounters, do NOT get the idea that means you don't need to practice your draw.

If you don't get your cover garment clear and grasp part of it with the grip of your gun, you will end up involuntarily throwing your gun away when the cover garment brings your hand up short but the gun keeps moving.

If you can't get a consistent grip on your gun before starting the draw, you run the risk of dropping the gun or of failing to defeat the friction of the holster to allow the gun to be drawn.

If you don't practice for trigger safety and to avoid sweeping body parts, you could end up shooting yourself.

So, if you don't want to practice for speed on the draw, that's ok. But that does NOT mean you don't have to practice your draw at all.

 

[deadcoyote]

I didn’t read all the responses but I think DOJ states the first most important thing is getting off line (like lateral movement or moving to cover) and second is shot placement.

 

[MoArk Willy]

The most important skill is situational awareness.
With that you can avoid 99% of deadly force encounters.
The remaining 1% requires a good aim.
If you are aware of your surroundings you have already pulled your weapon.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Hey Bart, upon review, I think we're talking past each other to a degree. But I came off a bit snarky last night, and for that I apologize, my bad.

No problem and I didn’t take it that way. I think JohnKSA summarized what both of us were trying to say well. You don’t need to be lightning fast; but you do need to be smooth.

I remember a Force-on-Force course I took where I was wearing a sweater with elastic around the bottom as a cover garment. I lifted with my weak hand to access the Glock. Then I pulled the Glock straight up and snagged the slide on the elastic, the elastic gave a little bit at first as I drew and then rubberbanded the Glock straight out of my hand and at the feet of my attacker as I tried to rotate it.

As comedy goes, it was a great success; but it did impress on me there were worse things than a slow, smooth, draw. Weapon manipulation is, of course, very important; but I just don’t think it is as important as the amount of attention it often receives.

 

[bamaranger]

video

Now that there is video security seemingly everywhere, and our access to images from such records is available via the internet, it is possible to view and review gunfights. I've got my own conclusions, you can take them for what they're worth.

I'll use a broad interpretation of the term "tactics" to include mindset, use of cover, awareness and avoidance. Good tactics will help you avoid fights, and hopefully allow you to win one as well. A blazing IDPA draw is not a hindrance, but we now have recordings of a large number of gun fights being won now by what appears to be untrained folks w/ very average presentations, but who did so at the right time and place, launching what some trainers call a counter ambush. A large component of these wins obviously involves having a firearm to begin with, and on- body carry is way ahead of off- body.

For an LEO, or others carrying a firearm for a living, you might as well EXPECT that you will someday be in an armed confrontation. As part of such a mindset, your firearms skills need to be as sharp as one can hone them, as LE shootings are often reactionary , you may be behind the curve regardless of your awareness,and the fractions of a second you gain with an efficient presentation might make the difference.

 

[OldMarksman]

If you are aware of your surroundings you have already pulled your weapon.

Do not do so unless and until you have an objective basis fir a reasonable belief that deadly force is immediately necessary to defend against an imminent threat.

Awareness may provide you with a means to avoid that eventuality.

 

[stephen426]

I really don't understand the need to immediately dismiss something we don't agree with as fiction or worse. We read the first few words of the post and then make ASSumptions as to what others are saying. We don't bother reading the while post or any of the previous posts. Are we here to show off how much we know and put others down or are we here to share opinions and learn from each other? We can cite statistics for or against a lot of different things and never agree. I appreciate the guys that say a good fast draw is a good skill to have in addition to other skills.

I used to think that shooting nice small groups was a very important skill to have. That is until I was at a range where there were some really thug looking characters. They had one hand holding up their pants and they had the gun held sideways "gangster style". They were shooting rapid fire and their groupings looked more like a shotgun pattern, but some of the hits were critical hits and could easily be debilitating if not deadly. The light bulb went on and I realized that a nice pretty grouping doesn't mean squat if you can't get lead on target quickly. While good marksmanship IS important, the thugs don't care about groupings or collateral damage. Its basically take them out before they take you out.

If I had to rank skills in order of importance, it would probably be:
1. Avoidance/Situational Awareness - Don't be there in the first place and don't let yourself get caught off guard. While we can go through life in condition yellow/orange our whole lives and have our heads on a swivel, things still can and will happen. You can probably lump de-escalation into here, but it won't work in all circumstances.
2. Drawing your weapon - Honestly speaking, how many people practice drawing their gun from concealment on a regular basis (Other than Rangerrich99 - good job by the way). If you don't practice getting your weapon into play and you fumble your draw in a poop hits the fan situation, things probably won't go too well for you. Our practical shooting club stresses that you should shoot what you carry and practice drawing from how you carry.
3. Good Marksmanship - It won't matter how fast you draw if you can't hit your target. Sometimes the mere presence of an armed victim is enough to end hostilities (usually contact weapon or size advantage), but you can't count on it. Also, as good law-abiding citizens, we try to minimize collateral damage rather than spraying and praying. Make good hits quickly until the threat is no longer a threat.
4. Situational Awareness - It is well documented that people can go into a zone like focus in a self-defense situation. It is important to watch for other attackers and to get a good read of the situation.

Feel free to add on or chime in with your own $.02, but please keep it civil.

 

[jmorris]

Get a shot timer and go to the range.

Set the shot timer on delay start and go.

At the buzzer draw and shoot a target. Note the time.

Now draw and aim your pistol at the target and hit the timer again.

You will instantly realize what I was talking about in my last post.

 

[Mike38]

I'm replying after reading the original post only, to not have my mind swayed at all. I'd say the most important thing is situational awareness. Stay out of a bad situation, and drawing a weapon wouldn't even be necessary. Second most important would be getting that first shot on target. Matters not how fast you can draw, the person with the first hit instantly has the advantage.

 

[stephen426]

I'm guessing some people have better crystal balls or they choose to live in a bubble. Why bother carrying a gun if your situational awareness can keep you out of trouble?

Situational awareness is just that... AWARENESS. We cannot control what happens IF things do go south, but being aware will certainly give us more time to react. We should still practice drawing our guns (preferably loaded but unchambered for safety) so we have the skill IF we ever need it. While the term quick draw may bring up images of the old westerns, we should take it as a smooth, fast draw that is well practiced.

If your range does not allow for drawing from concealment, I would recommend buying a very good quality airsoft gun that is a very good replica of your carry gun. There are some that have very similar weighting. If airsoft is not available, go with a BB or pellet gun. The advantage of airsoft is that it can be done indoors with minimal risk of damage. I hang a towel behind my target and have it drop into a box.

While we might not ever need to skill, why not learn it and practice it just in case? Isn't that why we carry a gun, even though most of us have never had to shoot anyone, much less draw it?

 

[jar]

2. Drawing your weapon - Honestly speaking, how many people practice drawing their gun from concealment on a regular basis (Other than Rangerrich99 - good job by the way). If you don't practice getting your weapon into play and you fumble your draw in a poop hits the fan situation, things probably won't go too well for you. Our practical shooting club stresses that you should shoot what you carry and practice drawing from how you carry.

I like to add slightly to that. Practice presentation beginning with what you normally carry, cell phone, briefcase, computer, handbag, cup of hot coffee, whatever is normally gonna be in your hands. Also practice as part of presentation hip height, belly high and close to your body, chest high and partial extension and full extension. Do the last two one and two handed. Also practice off hand distraction/direction such as hand in stop position, hand pointed away (anywhere other than at you), hand pointed down at the threat's feet (amazing how eyes tend to follow directions).

 

[RaySendero]

Well...My mind is not suave either.
I think the most important thing in self defense is to be prepared and have a gun!
And, It sure won't hurt to be proficient with a fast & accurate draw.

 

[jmorris]

I'm guessing some people have better crystal balls or they choose to live in a bubble. Why bother carrying a gun if your situational awareness can keep you out of trouble?

You don’t need a crystal ball to see that a threat is being created, just aware of what is going on around you and don’t be a “deer in the headlights”.

Carrying a firearm keeps you out of trouble as much as steel toe boots keep you from dropping things on your feet.

In short neither helps if you don’t do your part, they just might minimize the damage though.

 

[HiBC]

I'm guessing some people have better crystal balls or they choose to live in a bubble. Why bother carrying a gun if your situational awareness can keep you out of trouble?

We are all different,I guess,and live with different perceptions.

All you have to do is drive in traffic. Some of us can see subtle things that tell us a driver is focused on his/her phone. Example? The migrating goose,the "Wingman" who settles into your blind spot ,keeps your car in peripheral vision,and relies on you to be the guide dog. Check your rearview to make sure its safe,then brake hard. See what it does to your wing man. He will usually brake too,then look at you for "Why?'

Some folks see the folks in the merging lane and may move over to give them room.Some folks make eye contact acknowledgement with pedestrians.

And some drivers are just oblivious.

I've worked as a doorman/bouncer in a large venue,(3 floors,seven bars) and I've worked as a school custodian.

Often,I can just sense the electricity that something is going on Its not any "psychic ability",...its just noticing the non verbals,noticing faces,noticing movement in a crowd..

Get off work at midnight and go to a Waffle House. You will notice you are being evaluated . Are you a chump? Can you be worked?

Get a bup of coffee at a 7-11 at 2 AM,sit in your car and drink it without having to drive and spil it on your shirt. Turn on Art Bell radio.

Watch the guy smoking in front of the firewood bundles and playing with his phone. Watch the guy on the bike with the back pack show up and join the guy smoking. Watch them go around the corner. Then bicycle guy leaves.So many scenarios in 7-11 parking lots.The same guy at the firewood gets two more come and go visitors. They may go inside first.

Some folks just saw a drug transaction,some never saw anything but the donut they are stuffing in their face.

Some folks drive along and see deer in the shadow under a tree.

Some folks never see a deer till it ends up in their radiator.

The ones who do not see have no way to comprehend what others mean by "awareness" because they travel through life unaware.How can a blind person comprehend the color "blue". Its in a different reality.

I'm not a Veteran,but if I may,some folks are better suited to being "Point Man" than others..Sure,being able to quickly deliver effective fire IS a key pointman skill,if things have already gone wrong. Early warning might be the most important skill,especially for a LRRP team trying to remain undetected.


Perhaps Billy walks a trail into a clearing about twice a week in the PM.If I notice he spooks the crows from the Cottonwood as he approaches near every time, Oblivious Man will believe I have a crystal ball if I see the crows fly and say "Billy is coming" 5 minutes before Billy walks into the clearing.

I'd say the man who tells his wife "Lets go. I can't quite say why,but lets go."

Has the most important skill. Not much is lost if he is wrong sometimes.

 

[Rangerrich99]

I like to add slightly to that. Practice presentation beginning with what you normally carry, cell phone, briefcase, computer, handbag, cup of hot coffee, whatever is normally gonna be in your hands. Also practice as part of presentation hip height, belly high and close to your body, chest high and partial extension and full extension. Do the last two one and two handed. Also practice off hand distraction/direction such as hand in stop position, hand pointed away (anywhere other than at you), hand pointed down at the threat's feet (amazing how eyes tend to follow directions).

This is a very good idea. One of the classes I took last year had us hold a variety of different objects and then have to run a drill. Things like a bag of groceries, a plastic cup, a piece of wood with a handle cut-out that was supposed to simulate a briefcase or similar.

After the class we usually have a discussion period, and someone suggested that we should've used our cellphones as a prop. We didn't actually run that scenario, but it was opined that most people would be loath to actually drop their phones on the ground and how that would affect a person's ability to draw/shoot/etc.

In a future class we're going to run drills while "holding a dog leash," "someone's/a child's hand," etc. Should be fairly interesting.

 

[5whiskey]

We are all different,I guess,and live with different perceptions.

All you have to do is drive in traffic. Some of us can see subtle things that tell us a driver is focused on his/her phone. Example? The migrating goose,the "Wingman" who settles into your blind spot ,keeps your car in peripheral vision,and relies on you to be the guide dog. Check your rearview to make sure its safe,then brake hard. See what it does to your wing man. He will usually brake too,then look at you for "Why?'

Some folks see the folks in the merging lane and may move over to give them room.Some folks make eye contact acknowledgement with pedestrians.

And some drivers are just oblivious.

I've worked as a doorman/bouncer in a large venue,(3 floors,seven bars) and I've worked as a school custodian.

Often,I can just sense the electricity that something is going on Its not any "psychic ability",...its just noticing the non verbals,noticing faces,noticing movement in a crowd..

Get off work at midnight and go to a Waffle House. You will notice you are being evaluated . Are you a chump? Can you be worked?

Get a bup of coffee at a 7-11 at 2 AM,sit in your car and drink it without having to drive and spil it on your shirt. Turn on Art Bell radio.

Watch the guy smoking in front of the firewood bundles and playing with his phone. Watch the guy on the bike with the back pack show up and join the guy smoking. Watch them go around the corner. Then bicycle guy leaves.So many scenarios in 7-11 parking lots.The same guy at the firewood gets two more come and go visitors. They may go inside first.

Some folks just saw a drug transaction,some never saw anything but the donut they are stuffing in their face.

Some folks drive along and see deer in the shadow under a tree.

Some folks never see a deer till it ends up in their radiator.

The ones who do not see have no way to comprehend what others mean by "awareness" because they travel through life unaware.How can a blind person comprehend the color "blue". Its in a different reality.

I'm not a Veteran,but if I may,some folks are better suited to being "Point Man" than others..Sure,being able to quickly deliver effective fire IS a key pointman skill,if things have already gone wrong. Early warning might be the most important skill,especially for a LRRP team trying to remain undetected.


Perhaps Billy walks a trail into a clearing about twice a week in the PM.If I notice he spooks the crows from the Cottonwood as he approaches near every time, Oblivious Man will believe I have a crystal ball if I see the crows fly and say "Billy is coming" 5 minutes before Billy walks into the clearing.

I'd say the man who tells his wife "Lets go. I can't quite say why,but lets go."

Has the most important skill. Not much is lost if he is wrong sometimes.

This one post right here should be stickied. Very well said HiBC

 

[Blue Duck]

The fast draw is not nonsense. Can one whip a pistol out and get an accurate (solid Body hit) in 1 second? If the range is close, (3 yards lets say) then I have to say yes. And 3 yards is very likely. And yes I have done with a timer, a lot.

I am aware of a real life gunfight, (happened a couple of years ago) where I personally knew the good guys. Two thugs with hoodies come into a local gunshop. They have already made up there mind to kill all three of the people working in there, two men a woman.

All three store workers are armed, the two men both have a 38 J-frame in their front pants pockets. Shots are fired by the perps, first, but miss, neither man can get his pistol out of his pocket, both have to seek cover, and it's a wonder neither one got hit, but the woman had her gun more accessible and returned fire hitting one of thugs in the upper torso with one shot out of 3 or 4 rounds fired. Not a killing or stopping shot but it was enough resistance to cause the thugs to run back out of the store. They were finally caught in a city about 75 miles away.
I seen the videos and talked to the defenders afterwards, and this all happened pretty darned fast. Bottom line is she was the real gunfighter of the bunch, and was able to react quickly. Neither man (defenders) where even able to get a shot off, because of there mode of carry and slooooooooow access to there pistols.

If either man had been carrying a decent sized gun in a strong side holster (even a singleaction peacemaker,although that would not have been my recomendation), they would have been able to return fire, at least. Fortunately, the woman's quick response probably saved at least one of the men's lives, and probably the woman herself, also.

In this real life gunfight, things had already progressed past, situational awareness, etc.
It was down to lead flying, and the desperate need for return fire, as quickly as possible. One defender cowed down behind the counter on the floor, and the other had to duck and run into the back room for a shotgun, since he couldn't get his gun out either, but the woman stood her ground and returned fire, and got a hit, which probably saved her life.

A fast draw ( or shall I say fast access to a weapon) and quick (REASONABLY ACCURATE) return fire may not be the end all of personal defense, but it sure as heck should not to be dismissed as unimportant, and it just might be the last chance to survive the situation.