Is a fast draw the most important skill for deadly force encounters?

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Time Enough For Love by Robert A. Heinlein

Excerpts from the Notebooks of Lazarus Long

Get a shot off fast. This upsets him long enough to let you
make your second shot perfect.

'nuff said?

Aarond

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because they sure don’t sound like they have much real-world experience

on the contrary... the traditional target zone (as we know it today) was developed based on exactly that. Real-world experience.
 
SOME POINTS.

First, a defender may be able to sucker punch the guy when he doesn't see it coming, but this guy has already assaulted you or you wouldn't be drawing a gun and preparing to kill him. A good draw time is two seconds. a draw time from a completely unaware status is going to take a lot more time. Anyone can instinctively duck a defender's poking muzzle in his face with that time. An armed attacker can absolutely hit you in the gut with a bullet before you can put a bullet in his head unless you are a champion gunslinger.

Here is a very simple fact. Unless the defender is highly skilled several rapid instinctive hits to the chest can be made before a single aimed round can hit a disabling part of the brain. A single aimed round fired at the brain is going to be far slower than the guy who already has a gun in his hand aimed at your belly. A defender can literally unzip a guy from sternum to throat in less time than it will take to get an absolutely certain shot to the brain or spinal section of the head.

If a defender gets the first rounds in on an armed attacker, there is a chance that an armed attacker can still fight back and kill the defender. Sure, a defender may be so incompetent that he can get the first round into the target at arm's length and still fail to disable the attacker. If the defender fails, he was either outclassed completely or he failed to follow up on his instantaneous advantage.

Even body armor can't fully prevent a disabling hit. There are plenty of rounds that will penetrate standard vests. There are plenty of places that can be hit other than the vest. Even a shot in a vest that is actually blocked will put a physical and mental shock that has been known to temporarily disable people.

The claim has been made and rabidly defended that when facing an armed and prepared attacker at arm's length, shooting into center torso is tantamount to suicide, while shooting at the head is the logical and most likely to be successful attack, since since (in your words) numerous hits to center torso WILL NOT DISABLE AN ATTACKER and leave him with as much as fifteen second window of opportunity during which he can still get the advantage over a defender who has already put a number of rounds through the attacker's cp area. You stated this as a solid fact.

a “straight line dump into the chest” will still leave your assailant with the 10 to 15 second opportunity to ruin your upcoming weekend itinerary.

Without any evidence that it is true you are stating as fact that when presented with an armed attacker a person can draw,point (aim) and fire lethal rounds into the brain before that armed attacker can respond, whereas you state as a fact that a defender cannot use chest shots to disable the attacker in a timely manner.

I really don't care at all about your beliefs as I know that they are only your opinions, but you are declaring your beliefs as facts in a public forum where people may believe that your statements are indeed absolute fact.

Numerous times now you have declared that you are experienced and well trained, and said that other trained individuals disagree. You talked about old timers (clint smith, massad Ayoob I guess are old timers) who mumble nonsense into their beards.

Before anyone should even consider giving your statements anything but disbelief and disregard, show us all who you are and what your qualifications are. You're stating widely discounted tactics as facts and dismissing the tactics that have been in use for centuries.

Show us anything that proves that you are qualified to be teaching these people to ignore training and advice given by literally thousands of professionals and semi-professionals.
 
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Makes me wonder just what “old timers” you’ve been listening to mutter their theories because they sure don’t sound like they have much real-world experience.

Some of the old drooling geezers I've learned from are not well known to others , some have passed on, etc. So quoting them means more to me than to anyone else.

But any one can pick up Jeff Cooper, Bill Jordan, Massad Ayoob, Andy Stanford, Charles Askins, Ken Hackathorn, Farnham, Applegate and Sykes and many others, and read what they emphasize and what they did/ and do, and taught. These are the old timers I was thinking of. A person can also take training.

Leaf, thank you for your concern and the three references to me being dead for not taking your advice in your last post. Good to know someone cares. ;)

tipoc
 
Leaf, thank you for your concern and the three references to me being dead for not taking your advice in your last post. Good to know someone cares.

You can sort of take it for granted that you won't see any tears on my face if you are dead. I have no idea who you are, won't hear about your death, or even the incident that killed you. Just in case you happen to die because you did something really dumb or reckless, I'm probably going to say 'what an idiot' and move on to the funny pages. When a drunk dove head first into a shallow kiddy pool and broke his stupid head, I barely wasted an incredulous shake of my head. I don't think that I'm alone, I doubt that anyone here is going to know or weep for your death unless close friends share the news.

Despite promises of crocodile tears, I'd not hire an extra limo just to take the expected metric fartload of flowers home from your funeral.

Ehhh, who am I kidding. I love you all and will seriously feel terrible if one of you went to meet elmer or jack. If anyone dies because a bad guy murdered him it's not going to make a bit of difference why you lost, I'm going to grieve for the fact that a (probably) good man was removed from this earth at the hand of a bad guy, and I will also grieve for the fact that some bad guy will, at best, probably just be removed from gentle society for a few years.
 
Soooo... Not to throw a monkey wrench into the equation, but if someone is at contact distance, do you actually try and draw your weapon, or do you grapple for the gun? I know it would be based on your attacker's distance from you, your own physical capabilities and training, and your attacker's perceived physical capabilities.

Frankly, I think drawing on a drawn gun is going to be a losing proposition even if you are a very fast draw. If someone got close enough to me with a drawn weapon, I would most likely comply and look for an opportunity. Be careful not to project your intentions by sizing them up. If I was to resist, I'd go for the throat (literally). You can't breath, it's going to be hard to fight. Follow it up with eye gouges and elbows. If the opportunity doesn't present itself, comply until there is a chance or until compliance no longer seems the safest option.
 
In this circumstance that you describe ( close enough to practically slap) and considering that a drawn weapon typically moves upward , I could be mistaken but you are seemingly suggesting that a person forego the near universal target zone and continue upward to what seems to be considered a "better" target zone.

No, fireforged. Only suggesting you better move on up to the head quickly if you don’t want to be a corpse laying there alongside your assailant.

There is a lot of thanking and honoring going on here over the death of forum members from not following your advice. I guess we should be thankful for your oracle like abilities.

You sir, tunnelrat, are quite welcome.

The idea of the "headshot" being this instant kill is probably overblown.

Indeed, Lohman. But not more overblown then the assumption that chest shots are going go immediately stop your assailant.

Get a shot off fast. This upsets him long enough to let you
make your second shot perfect.

Right on, Aarond. You nailed it.

But any one can pick up Jeff Cooper, Bill Jordan, Massad Ayoob, Andy Stanford, Charles Askins, Ken Hackathorn, Farnham, Applegate and Sykes and many others, and read what they emphasize and what they did/ and do, and taught. These are the old timers I was thinking of.

So tupac, it would probably surprise you if you found out that in the scenario I’ve described they would agree with me? You wouldn’t, like, poop your britches over such a revelation and take the walk of shame, would you?

Soooo... Not to throw a monkey wrench into the equation, but if someone is at contact distance, do you actually try and draw your weapon, or do you grapple for the gun? I know it would be based on your attacker's distance from you, your own physical capabilities and training, and your attacker's perceived physical capabilities.

That is an EXCELLENT question, Stephen. And it is only one that can generally be answered at the time of the attack. My response is to immediately deflect with my free hand and start going to work with my firearm. Or to start going to work with my firearm and in that scenario I’m probably going to be going first for the brain because I know I HAVE TO or I’m almost certainly dead.

In a way guns are kinda like karate. The best way to prevent getting shot is "don't be there" where they are shooting.

And another right on, Jack. You also nailed it.
 
If I can save the life of only one inexperienced, untrained, firearms enthusiast, then my work here it is all worth it. (Wink, wink). Cheers!
 
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