Is a .454 RB enough for deer?

The problem is that Cletus and Jethro will read this, comprehend 10% of it and conclude that because their brass framed 1851 uses a .451" ball, it'll kill Bambi's daddy .... and then are all sorts of dismayed when they can't find the deer they just centerpunched with their pea-shooter.
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That's a great summation.

Anyway I'm out of this conversation. I don't hunt; I just punch holes in paper using about 1/2 the usual service load for maximum accuracy. With just a little less powder I could send someone down range with a catcher's mitt to catch my bullets for me to re-use. ;)

Steve
 
It seems this thread went the way of most I guess. In hunting circles you will have guys state that their 300 Win Mag, 338 Lapua, 300 WSM, 7mm Mag, etc etc. Is the best because that's what they use and is the biggest and baddest rock chucker on this planet. Whereas I view them in my area as extreme over kill and resulting in a deer no deader than my 303 or 30-30 leaves them. 99% of the time my deer never take another step. And so.e folks will argue that the 357mag (out of a rifle) is a poor choice to hunt deer with, even though it was touted here. Shot placement is key. I have never taken a whitetail with a roundball (yet). And I have no doubts about the Hawkens ability. As far as the 1858 if I can develop a load passing 1000 fps and passing 300 ft lb I would be confident enough to take a shot out to 25 or 30 yds. I do appreciate all the comments and replies, you guys gave me lots of food for thought
 
I've shot a fair number of deer with both .45 cal and .50cal. Yes, a .45 will kill a deer but it doesn't penetrate anywhere near as well as a .50cal will. A .45cal round ball weighs a paltry 127 grains and a .50cal weighs 175 grains. I have shot deer with the .45 where the round ball didn't get to the vitals due to the angle of the shot. The same shot with the .50 cal made it all the way through. The .45cal will work but you need to be closer, have a lot better angle, and pass on the shots that are less than ideal. A round ball isn't that good of a projectile to begin with. If it was, conicals would have never been invented.
 
It seems this thread went the way of most I guess. In hunting circles you will have guys state that their 300 Win Mag, 338 Lapua, 300 WSM, 7mm Mag, etc etc. Is the best because that's what they use and is the biggest and baddest rock chucker on this planet. Whereas I view them in my area as extreme over kill and resulting in a deer no deader than my 303 or 30-30 leaves them.
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I've shot a fair number of deer with both .45 cal and .50cal. Yes, a .45 will kill a deer but it doesn't penetrate anywhere near as well as a .50cal will. A .45cal round ball weighs a paltry 127 grains and a .50cal weighs 175 grains. I have shot deer with the .45 where the round ball didn't get to the vitals due to the angle of the shot. The same shot with the .50 cal made it all the way through. The .45cal will work but you need to be closer, have a lot better angle, and pass on the shots that are less than ideal. A round ball isn't that good of a projectile to begin with. If it was, conicals would have never been invented.
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deerslayer, I'm coming from it the other way: having tried the .440 PRB (out of a rifle, mind you), and failed to recover the animal, I know it does not penetrate well enough to leave a good blood trail ..... I KNOW there are better tools for the job....... yet we have folks here advocating for even more marginal tools.....

Use whatever you want, so long as it does not violate any Game Laws .....
 
Agreed Jimbob, I think a blood trail is very important to deer hunting. I took a deer this past season with a .243 100gr bullet, I bought the rifle for my daughter. Even though the animal didn't go but 50 yards and it was a full pass through the boiler room, a few drops of blood didn't tickle my fancy. Not bashing a 243 at all l, I was just not happy with the wound channel.
 
Jumping back in to talk about .243, that's my experience also. I shot 2 deer with my .243. One one I hit it in the spine which dropped it right there. But the other deer the bullet when through it like a laser. Very light blood trail. Found it by accident when I was hauling away the second deer.

My dad taught me the trick to finding your deer is after you shoot one to sit still a bit. If they aren't being chased, they will go lay down and die, usually nearby. Mine was only 15 yards or so into the woods.

Steve
 
I shot that deer at 35 yards, and I think it was just too close and too fast for the bullet to open up. In all my years of hunting it seems a slow heavy slug knocks their fawn maker in the dirt rather quickly. My 2nd Dad (known him since I was a kid) hunts with a 44 mag lever gun loaded with 240 grain semi jacketed lead bullets. He has never had to track one. Granted he hunts in the woods with close shots, his deer look like they got hit with a mack truck on I40 LOL. I got into the whole BP thing with the whole intention of moving to solely hunting with them. And I'm finally ready and confident enough to do so. I want more of a challenge. A scoped 30 30 or My Scoped Enfield doesn't do much for me other than fill the freezer. It's time to get closer and take them kinda like my fore fathers did.
 
"Also as I have said in this thread, I don't think anyone would dispute that the Walker would probably be fine for hunting deer. It's 60 grain charge puts you in .357 magnum power ranges."

The thing is that even a Ruger Old Army, Remington 1858, or Colt 1860 Army can get quite close too. My point in the videos where Mr. Beliveau, the editor for Guns of the Old West Magazine, shows that despite a reduced load with mild compression, neither which are necessary, he was able to get nearly 500 ft/lbs using conicals and nearly 400 ft/lbs with a ball.

And then the other point is that the ball from a pistol at 25 yds still has the energy levels that a rifle does at 100 yds, and at 100 yds a rifle is well known by those who hunt with them that you are likely to get a complete passthrough or find your ball under the hide on the offside. If that's not enough performance I'm uncertain what would change your opinion. But to say it's inhumane or incapable is false.

I hold myself to a slightly stricter standard in that I want all of my shots within 4" instead of the typical 6" I often note others are fine with as I want a little leeway in case I estimated the range wrong or wasn't quite steady enough, and I've not proven to myself that I'm qualified to make a 25 yds shot despite the powder or projectile, though at 15 yds I'd have no issues using it and would given an opportunity. For me it's more about a sidearm in case I were to need to track a wounded hog.


"But if you're shooting a standard period load out of your 1858 you aren't going to be anything close to that performance."

This is another false statement. There's a fellow who did a lot of research on Civil War paper cartridges and found that the powder Hazards Pistol Powder used was about 4F granulation and the power levels of Swiss. 4F was actually used with conicals as it reduced the powder capacity greatly. If you look at period powder charges for the heavier projectiles you'll note many at 22 grns of powder or less.

That fellow made public his work with the OK to post it. I have it saved to my computer and would certainly be willing to share it to anyone who'd like to see (it's available on the Yahoo group The Percussion Revolver), but it's too lengthy for a forum and would need to be emailed.
 
"The problem is that Cletus and Jethro will read this, comprehend 10% of it and conclude that because their brass framed 1851 uses a .451" ball, it'll kill Bambi's daddy .... and then are all sorts of dismayed when they can't find the deer they just centerpunched with their pea-shooter."

If anyone has that little reading comprehension then it doesn't really matter what's being discussed. It really has nothing to do with whether or not it can be effective though...
 
"The OP topic is whether or not a BP revolver should be used for deer, and the consensus seems to be that it shouldn't."

That's not the consensus at all. I guess you missed the many posts that state or show otherwise. Or better yet go to a traditional firearms forum and ask those who've been doing it for decades say about it.

I was under the impression myself that a ball was about useless from a .50 cal rifle beyond 50 yds due to the low weight/sectional density and poor BC values leaving the projectile with what I thought was useless amounts of energy. Reality shows that these numbers don't mean as much as we're led to believe.

A .50 cal ball only has 411 ft/lbs at 100 yds and 356 ft/lbs at 125 yds with a fairly stout charge of Pyrodex RS (80 grns) which is slightly more energetic than standard Goex and the like. Starting velocity is 1701 fps.
 
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Snyper, you may be correct in your statement but what I do know is that bullet went in and out leaving the same entry and exit wound. Not the 30 cal entry and half dollar sized exit my 30 30 leaves firing an FTX.
 
Snyper, you may be correct in your statement but what I do know is that bullet went in and out leaving the same entry and exit wound. Not the 30 cal entry and half dollar sized exit my 30 30 leaves firing an FTX.
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A lack of expansion is from velocity that is too low, or a bullet that is too hard
Lead round balls tend to be pretty soft compared to most conical bullets
 
And then the other point is that the ball from a pistol at 25 yds still has the energy levels that a rifle does at 100 yds, and at 100 yds a rifle is well known by those who hunt with them that you are likely to get a complete passthrough or find your ball under the hide on the offside.
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This has not been my experience.

The OP topic is whether or not a BP revolver should be used for deer, and the consensus seems to be that it shouldn't.
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Actually, the question reads "Is a .454" RB enough for deer?" and goes on to talk about a revolver. You are trying to bring conicals into it. And really heavy loads only suitable for Walker reproductions ......

Check your local game laws, and use what you want, privided it's legal. Just know that a .45 cal round ball is pretty weak deer medicine when shot out of a rifle..... and much moreso when using a pistol. Get really close, and don't hit the shoulder.
 
Wow...

...I thought this thread was one of the most excellent questions I ever heard on this forum. The original question was, is a 44 cap and ball pistol enough to kill a deer. It absolutely is. I have taken countless deer with a 44 cap and ball pistol.

Anyone here who is a paper puncher and never killed a deer in their life, has absolutely no business even commenting on this question.

I am a hunter, not a paper puncher. I know exactly what every single one of my firearms will do and what they won't do. I prefer black powder firearms. Long gun and pistol alike, along with bow and arrow, and I work at it. Any 44 caliber pistol or long gun whatever... is easily, and completely capable of taking a deer.

I have only ever had one deer get away from me in my life. It was because after I shot it, my hunting partner drove his truck into the field where the deer was laying down dying and it jumped the fence on to a property that we were forbidden to go on. Honestly, it ticked me off terribly.

I have a tremendous reverence for the whitetail deer. They are one of God's finest creatures. Way high on the intelligence chain as far as I'm concerned. Their primary objective in life, is to feed, reproduce and exist. Sometimes, their desire to survive is extreme. Even though they are dead, they don't even know it.

I was hunting with my dad, and watched him shoot a deer at 50 yards with a 50 caliber in line, perfect shot through both lungs and heart and that deer ran 300 yards and piled up on the edge of a woods across an open field. All along the way, there was blood sprayed all over the ground on both sides as though somebody ran through the field with a can of red spray paint.

If you are a paper puncher and have never taken a deer with a rifle or a handgun, why are you bothering everyone here with your bull roar? You have no idea what you are talking about. All your talk about ballistics, feet per second, round ball vs conical, is all speculation as you have never done it. I have been there, & I have done it and the answer to the question is simply this... A 44 with 35 grains of powder and even a round ball is plenty enough to kill a deer at 50 yards or under even a hundred yards if you practice.

When you decide to stop punching paper, and get your butt out in the woods and kill a whitetail then, come back here to this forum and comment on this topic. Until then, you have no idea what you're talking about.
 
I would love to see some of the groups these BP revolver hunters are shooting at 50+ yards. Obviously they can take precise heart/lung shots at those distances. I have taken deer with 45/50/62 riflesl as well as numerous center fires. I have shot around enough people in my long life to know a lot of them are not proficient enough to shoot any game animal with a revolver at 50 yds...be it blackpowder or smokeless.
Lots of guys share their experiences on here and get their hackles up if someone disagrees with them, but it doesn't change anything. I guess nobody is going to change anyone's mind about marginal hunting calibers and equipment...so to each his own.
 
I have a tremendous reverence for the whitetail deer.
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Yet you publicly support people hunting them with what can, at best, only be considered a marginal weapon ....

marginal: close to the lower limit of qualification, acceptability, or function : barely exceeding the minimum requirements
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At best, it's barely enough. At worst, it's lost animals waiting to happen ..... there are better tools for the job, and no good reason not to use them...... especially if you " have a tremendous reverence for the whitetail deer" .....

Whatever.
 
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I was done with this thread, with nothing to add, until Birchorr posted. I'm not sure who you are calling "paper punchers" but you seem to make an awful lot of assumptions about people.

I'm calling BS on your whole post. It was prefaced by a lot of attacks, and what followed was just unbelieveable. You said you've had one deer get away in your lifetime. Are you saying in all your years of bagging deer with your .44 round balls, you have never missed a shot??? If you claim you've never missed a shot, I say BS. I you have "missed", how many of those were actually not "misses", and how do you know?

How many is "countless"? 100yards with a .44 cap and ball? Really? What kind of acccuracy do you get at 100 yards? Some of your claims are so outlandish that they destroy the credibility of your entire post.

You can argue about whether or not the average hunter is skilled enough to get close enough for a .44 to be effective, and whther or not its effective at 25 yards, but suggesting people take 100 yard shots at deer with a 44 round ball revolver is irresponsible and unethical in my book.


The OP will do as he see fit. Appears he had made up his mind before asking the question. One more thing I'd suggest is shooting those Triple & loads over a Chrony, because I think you're putting a lot of stock into an article where they got results that I don't think you'll see. I'd also be interested in what happens to accuracy when you get into the upper end.

Good luck, and let us know what happens. I'm sure you'll share your success. I hope you will also share bad results should they occur.
 
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