Is a .454 RB enough for deer?

Looking at sources seemingly reliable most do not mention the design for use against horses as well, though I did find one so far.

http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/...t-dragoon.html
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Unfortunately, that's not a source. That's just an internet article re-stating the "shooting horses" line without any citation.

I also know that Steve is hung up on the fact that there is no documentation proving that the Colt Walker was designed for killing horses. At the same time he loves them and shoots them regularly. It is my personal belief documentation or not, the Walker was indeed designed to kill horses. I believe Walker wanted a pistol to shoot the horses out from underneath the Indians. If you get them on the ground, they are not riding all around you slinging arrows at you. Why on earth would Walker want such a powerful pistol simply to shoot Indians and not horses?
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Unfortunately, that's not evidence. I consider myself a somewhat serious history buff, having done living history type things for going on 20 years now. In researching historical stuff for re-creation, the gold standard is primary documentation. That is, original artifacts that have not been altered in any way, including documents written by contemporaries. Following that, we have secondary sources, which are built up from primary sources.

I have not located nor been presented with any primary nor secondary sources with citations that indicate a design intent by either Colt nor Walker to be able to shoot horses.

Now granted, I cannot say my research on this was exhaustive. I bought and through inter-library loan read several books on the topic, including Sam Colt's Own Record 1847 which includes all the known correspondence surrounding the development of the Walker.

Full previous discussion on this topic can be found in this thread:

thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=539837

Anyway, to date, I have found no citation indicating a desire from either Walker, Colt, nor Whitney about the expected firepower or use of the Walker, other than to indicate the caliber and charge.

If it was a standard tactic of the day to de-horse adversaries then it's possible there is documentation to support that outside of the context of the Walker revolver. I have not researched that.

What Walker himself stated of the Walker revolver was that it was as good as a rifle and better than a musket at 100 yards. That is what I think Colt was aiming for.

I am of course quite open to evidence which supports the idea that shooting horses was a design requirement.

Steve
 
As in everything, it depends on your ability to put the bullet where it counts. You could just wound a deer even with a 12 gauge slug if your shot placement is poor. Marksmanship aside, anything that can kill a man can kill a deer. I have known of deer taken with 10 gauge BB shot and even with a 22, but wouldn't recommend it.
 
Thanks guys for all the informative replies. The 58 will accompany me and the .50 Hawken the entire up coming season. I am very confident with the Remington out to 40 yards. I do quite well with minute of cheap dollar store paper plates, which is equivalent to the boiler room on a whitetail. I may work with some swiss, or 777 as suggested for a little more thump. The scoped centerfires will stay home this year.
 
Thanks guys for the replies, I was just thinking that my revolver may not be able to push that ball fast enough to do it ethically.
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I tend to follow your first instincts. Unless you have a Walker, your looking at a .38 spl comparison. I sure wouldn't take a 40 yard shot on a deer. I'd be hesitant at 25 yards.

General Custer was known for killing buffalo with them, but he basically chased them around on a horse, and got right up next to them, and kept putting multiple balls into them (with multiple guns) until they eventually went down. In one account he shot his own horse in the head and killed it when grabbing the reign with a cocked revolver in hand.
 
"Unless you have a Walker, your looking at a .38 spl comparison. I sure wouldn't take a 40 yard shot on a deer. I'd be hesitant at 25 yards."

It all depends on the powder you use. Swiss, Olde Eynsford, and Triple 7 will all give you much higher velocity than almost any others.

Look at the video Mr. Beliveau, the editor for Guns of the Old West Magazine had made comparing standard Goex (3F) to Triple 7 (3F) with reduced loads and mild compression. He was getting nearly 500 ft/lbs with the 220 grn Lee conical and Kaido's 255 grn bullet (modified Lee .45 Colt bullet). And a RB gave him ~375 ft/lbs. Thing is T7 doesn't need to be reduced for safety, nor does it need mild compression when not loading it in cartridges. Nowhere on Hodgdon's site under loading info does it state such.

And from the few chronograph results where people have shot Swiss, Olde E, and T7 in side by side comparisons they give very similar velocities when loaded with the same volume of powder.
 
BP Revolvers aren't even legal here. Caliber of the firearms itself must be .50 or larger and single shot only. I have talked to several people here though, that hunt whitetails successfully with single shot pistols. Loaded with .490 round balls. Wouldn't think a .454 would be that much of a difference.
 
May I suggest avoid using the round ball on deer, because if it hits bone --- other than a rib bone --- the round ball will flatten out like a pie plate.
 
Legalities aside, prior to the move west, most BP hunting rifles(Kentucky Long Rifle) were .45 calibre or less. Lot of deer killed in them thar days.
 
Legalities aside, prior to the move west, most BP hunting rifles(Kentucky Long Rifle) were .45 calibre or less. Lot of deer killed in them thar days.
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True but those 45 cal balls and slugs were moving a lot faster when they came out of the rifle. .45 cal or larger black powder is legal in Ohio from a rifle, and they do an impressive job at twice the velocity.
 
A .454 ball moving at 1000fps+ should do the job just fine at bow ranges it seems. The longer range work will be done with the TC Hawken. I just gotta get off my duff and get some T7 or some swiss and see how it does. I watched Mike's 6 part video on the Triple 7, and that was the first time I had heard that it doesn't like to be compressed. For those of you who have fired trip 7 in your Remingtons. What is your loading procedure for this powder?
 
Legalities aside, prior to the move west, most BP hunting rifles(Kentucky Long Rifle) were .45 calibre or less. Lot of deer killed in them thar days.
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I imagine a lot were wounded and lost also
But rifles aren't the topic, and revolvers are much weaker
 
"True but those 45 cal balls and slugs were moving a lot faster when they came out of the rifle. .45 cal or larger black powder is legal in Ohio from a rifle, and they do an impressive job at twice the velocity."

But they are traveling about the same velocity at 100 yds as the pistol is at the muzzle. Many people state complete passthroughs at 100-125 yds.
 
I heavily compress 3F T7 in both my Remington and Ruger as it's the only way I know they are consistent. I use 30 grns in the Remington with my 170 and 195 grn bullets and 35 grns in my Ruger as these are the more accurate loads.
 
A .454 ball moving at 1000fps+ should do the job just fine at bow ranges it seems.
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A .454 gr ball weights around 140gr at 1000fps is almost into the +P range of 6" barreled .38 spl.

I'm getting 900 fps from a 148gr +P from .38 snubbie.

I'd consider that extermely marginal even for bow ranges.
 
in the eary 50,s on my dads farm we killed alot of deer in the buckwheat with broadside lung shots out of a old remington .22lr rifle at 50-70 yards(the .22 didn,t spook them) and we could get 3-4 before they would spook. not alot of pass thru,s,but some did and the lung shot deer didn,t go far. eastbank.
 
in the eary 50,s on my dads farm we killed alot of deer in the buckwheat with broadside lung shots out of a old remington .22lr rifle at 50-70 yards(the .22 didn,t spook them) and we could get 3-4 before they would spook. not alot of pass thru,s,but some did and the lung shot deer didn,t go far. eastbank.
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The OP asked whether it was ethical to hunt deer with a marginally powered arm. Hunter ethics are personal for individuals, and hopefully based their own judgement of whether the arm they will be using , combined with their own skill are sufficient to take an anumal cleanly, without undue suffering, and with a minimal chance of escaping wounded, and not being recovered.

Bragging about poaching deer with a .22 rimfire, and using that as an example as to why the OP's choice is ethical is a little over the top.
 
Yes, all joking aside, you're going to be better off following the law, not just for legality's sake, but for morality's sake. You want to put the sucker down. There's little reason to use an anemic firearm unless you are in a survival situation.

Steve
 
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