Is a 12 gauge called the same in Europe as in the U.S.

"Westley Richards Explora"

I believe that's the one! Thanks!


2.5" shells...

Believe it or not, you can find them in this country again. Not easily, but you can also use the Aguila mini-shells.

Old Western Scrounger is probably the best source for the 2.5" hulls.
 
Meddac19,
Since I am the one who started the thread, I now proclaim that all that pertains to European shotguns and rilfes (and cannons) will now be the new topic of this thread . There is just too much information offered here for me to care if it applies to my origional post or not. :) So far, everything is what I wanted to know for my return trip to the "basically" European country (Cyprus) I plan to re-visit soon anyway.

I also personally think that if a discussion goes along the same theme of the thread, that it now has a life of it's own and becomes part of the topic in a way. It is almost as if it is now an entity that I had created (ITS ALIVE IGOR, ITS ALIVE).


Mike, I don't know why I didn't remember that the cannon balls were usually iron shot. Is it possible that it was still following the same "tradition" of using lead balls to measure the size of the bore and not be the same thing? (unlikely I know, but I am exploring a possible theory I have developed)
 
"Is it possible that it was still following the same "tradition" of using lead balls to measure the size of the bore and not be the same thing?"

No, I don't think so.

Think of it this way...

The gauge system only works well up to the point where you get to the theoretical 1 gauge, or about 1.59" in diameter, IIRC. Remember, it's the number of pure lead balls of bore size to the pound.

Once you get into cannon size stuff, anything over about 1.75 inches, you'd have to use NEGATIVE numbers to designate the gauge because at that point each pure lead ball of bore diameter is going to weigh more than a pound, and the formula would have to change. At that point it would have to be the number of pounds of lead needed to form a ball of bore size, so you could conceivably have numbers like -9.57 gauge. And because as the surface dimensions of a sphere grow larger, volume increases expodentially, you could very possibly have a 10-inch mortar turning into a -1,274.83 gauge.

Then, you have a rather different, and also unique, problem...

The larger the ball for the cannon, the WORSE a projectile lead makes. It simply grows too heavy to quickly, which is why stone was used early, and iron became the preferential projectile later.

Any way...

Just my musings.
 
I think the major problem you'll find is that many Euro guns have chambers for 65mm long shells. Our 2.75" chambers are for 70mm long shells. But some Euro companies also make 70mm chambered guns, especially now that many are sold in the USA, too.

I'm confident that H&H will chamber whichever length you prefer... :D

Beretta can furnish their high-grade doubles much sooner than the "Best Gun" English makers, of course, and they routinely (at least for US sale), have 70mm chambers, as do their autoloaders.

The Beretta Galleries in NYC and Dallas have very high grade guns in stock!

Lone Star
 
Someone said that British officers in the days of Empire could take only one long gun for sporting purposes. Can you confirm that?

I believe that they often had both shotguns and rifles. I'm almost sure that a Maj. Powell mentions using several guns, including a .401 Winchester auto in India, and Sir Gerald Burrard and others hunted a lot in northern India and adjacent areas.

I once read a book written in the 1880's by an officer on big game hunting in India and "Thibet", and he mentioned a selection of rifles. No need to shoot deer with the .465 double bought for tiger, elephant, and gaur!

Regulations may have varied with the times.

Lone Star
 
I tend to agree with you, Lone Star. Just about everything I've read indicates that the better off officers in the Royal Whatevers had a complete battery of firearms.

The Paradox and other emulators were more than likely developed for the civilians and officers who couldn't afford a complete battery of firearms.

I also came across some information in the 4th Edition of Cartridges of the World about the Paradox.

I had said they had shallow rifling at the muzzle, apparently they had pretty deep rifling to really grab the slug and spin it.
 
I wonder if there is a rifled screw in choke for remmington shotguns? If it is used for just saboted slugs, then deep rifling might bite into the plastic better over the short distance through the choke.
 
"I wonder if there is a rifled screw in choke for remmington shotguns?"

As a matter of fact, yes, there is.

I don't know why I didn't think of this obvious parallel earlier.
 
Hunting and shooting sports in general were quite popular among British officers in places like Africa, India etc and I do not recall the mention of such a restriction in any of the writings I have read. The one gun restriction may have been something that applied while travelling at H.M.'s expense or perhaps was in effect during a specific period. Once in country, perhaps they aquired others locally or simply ordered them and had them shipped out to them; as in those days one could do such things quite freely.
 
"The one gun restriction may have been something that applied while travelling at H.M.'s expense or perhaps was in effect during a specific period."


One British restriction that did affect a lot of officers and civilians alike in India and the Sudan was the outlawing of rifles in .45 caliber right around 1900. This was done to keep possible components out of the hands of rebels, many who were armed with .577-.450 Martini Henry rifles.

In one fell swoop, something like 25 to 30 cartridges and components became illegal to possess.

That's when you had the sudden introduction of cartridges such as the .465 Westley Richards (I think that one was theirs) and the .470 Nitro.
 
I'm not really much of a shotgun person - but I don't see any other Europeans in this thread, and on the net anyone can be an expert, so:

As has been established, the numbers are the same. If you find a 12, 20 or an old 16, it's the same thing whether it is called gauge, bore or kaliber (correct spelling of caliber), just different words for basically the same thing.

Lone Star
I think the major problem you'll find is that many Euro guns have chambers for 65mm long shells. Our 2.75" chambers are for 70mm long shells. But some Euro companies also make 70mm chambered guns, especially now that many are sold in the USA, too.
Click to expand...
Not really. To my knowledge, 65mm shells are around only to feed old shotguns. I doubt any European shotgun has been made with a 65mm (2.5") chamber in 50 years or more, at least I've never seen one - a new one, I mean. In Norway 65mm ammo is hard, maybe impossible to find. With guns old enough to have a 65mm/2.5" chamber, I would personally make sure it's safe to shoot with smokeless powder, the gun could be old enough to be black powder only.

The vast majority of guns made today seem to have 76mm chambers (3"). 12/89mm (3.5") guns are also available. Current markings are often just 12/70, 12/76, 20/76 or 10/89, you get the pattern. At least in Norway, the .410 is known as ... .410. Other European countries may have a different name for it.
 
Can't speak for all of "abroad" or all of Europe. But in Italy, a land of excellent gunmakers, the 12 gauge is referred to as "calibro 12." So the numerical designation remains the same. I just went to the H&H website and funny thing is "caliber" is still spelled with a C.
 
In one fell swoop, something like 25 to 30 cartridges and components became illegal to possess.
Click to expand...
Mike,
You made me wonder about the legality of my smuggl...importation of my 12 gauge slu....paperweights to Cyprus. I guess that the slugs are components and may be subject to restricions as well. Maybe I should leave my .45 acp cartridge key ring at home as well to avoid going to jail there (Greek food would be nice even in prison though ;) ).

I am going to have to call the embassy for the info unless someone knows about European Union laws about this? What about you Ultima Thule? Can you save me the laborious task of picking up a phone and making a (local) call to the embassy? :D Unless of course Norway isn't in the EU, or wasn't when you were there if it is now. And btw, thanks for the conversion numbers. I may have seen "10/89" somewhere before and was confused as hell. I never would have figured out that it was a mix of old measurement and metric measurment in the same designation.
 
"kaliber (correct spelling of caliber)"

No, the proper spelling isn't kaliber, caliber, or calibre, etc.

It's qalib, given that the word originated in Arabia. :)


Novus,

I'd have to say that I don't think I'd try to take components with me.
 
Mike, I tried to be funny. And you have to be all seriuous, ah never mind. :D
(Y'all please disregard my kaliber comment above, it was a failed attempt at a joke.)

novus, Norway isn't a member of the EU, although I can still travel in the union without a passport or move there and get a work/residency permit just by saying "I'm here".

To my knowledge there is no EU law on this, each country has its own firearms laws. I would be careful about bringing anything into a country I didn't know. Lead paperweights are probably ok in some countries, but I don't know about Cyprus. Also, regardless of importation - if they don't have slugs there, it's probably because it's illegal to own/use, not because they haven't heard of slugs. Slugs are popular in many European countries, particularly for wild pig hunting.

I think it's better to be safe than sorry. If you were caught with illegal lead paperweights (assuming they are illegal), I think a fine and possible deportation is more probable than prison. That's just a guess though, I wouldn't want to be the one to find out. I don't think your cartridge key ring will put you in jail either, unless it's a live round :D and you try to take it on board an airliner. It's just not worth it to try to explain to a minimum wage airport ninja (US or Cypriot) about a dummy round, either, imo.

Anecdote: On hearing that suppressors were available over the counter in Norway, someone in a gun store in California once asked my father if Dad or I could bring him one on the next visit, he was curious as to how they were made. :eek:
 
In the Dutch speaking part of Belgium, we say: kaliber 12. On my permit is says 12 gauge.

What I'm trying to say is, we call it as we like. But we preffer to shoot it
 
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