Is 9mm enough for Mountain Lion?

"I have read that Eastern Black bears were initially very aggressive toward early Colonists, until they learned to associate humans with guns and getting shot….
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I heard the pilgrims used to rub bacon fat all over themselves and put blueberries in their hair, too. You can hear anything if you listen to the interwebs long enough.

Let's think this over: what guns exactly did these early Colonists allegedly carry? And we are asking if a 9mm is 'enough gun'?
 
Let's think this over: what guns exactly did these early Colonists allegedly carry? And we are asking if a 9mm is 'enough gun'?
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First point, I don't think there is anything "allegedly" about the colonists carrying and using guns. I think the historical record is sufficient we can dispense with "allegedly".

The very earliest colonist had possibly a handful of military muskets but before France and England began serious war in the americas civilian use and possession of the actual military arms wasn't all that common. For some time, (unauthorized) possession of a Crown musket was a hanging offense. That did eventually change a bit before it became irrelevent.

Most of the colonial arms in the early times were "fowling pieces" And the famous "blunderbuss" (which apparently was much more common in illustrations of Pilgrims than in actual use though there were some.

These arms, and even the military muskets are large bore arms. The smaller common bores were about the size of 20ga shotguns. And some guns were as big as 10ga today. (more or less).

Think about that for a moment. Lets say its only a 20ga bore size. Round ball that size goes about 350gr or so. And lets say 1100fps or so, possible with black powder. That works out to about 900 some Ft/lbs ME.

Compare that with 9mm Luger "standard" ball at about 360ish Ft/lbs. Or even the hottest stuff today, at what a bit over 400ft/lbs??

That Colonial fowler could have over double that energy. and then, there's the other effects of the massive ball.

Down side, of course, only one shot. Better not waste it!!

Black bears knew what humans were. Humans had been living in their woods for a long, long time. Humans with the bow, spear, knife, and war club/tomahawk, but without firearms.

Enter the colonials, with their firearms. Now humans have range, and a different kind of power. BUT, horribly slow firing. Loud and stinky things they were, too....

A tribal warrior could get off many more shots from his bow, faster than a colonist could get off a second shot, not that the bears cared about that, of course...:rolleyes:

The bears learned, as all animals learned after they became hunted with firearms that man was now a threat from a serious distance, not just up close, so they learned to (mostly) stay away.

Today, we are centuries deep in the age of repeaters. The idea of not having multiple shots to defend ourselves with simply doesn't occur to many people these days.
 
I know a guy who shot a mountain lion out of a tree with a .22 magnum revolver and it dropped like a rock. I know another guy that shot one out of a tree with a .30-06 and it leaped into the guide's dogs, attacking them before it died. While riding horses in the mountains with a group of people, we encountered a mama bear with her cubs and later heard what sounded very much like a mountian lion scream in the trees above and behind us. None of us were armed and nobody was injured. I guess you just need a good horse instead of a shootin' iron.LOL!
 
Back in 1960s there was a story in one of the Gun rags about a Govt. Hunter up in the N.W.
who held the record for mountain lion kills. His main lion gun was a Broomhandle Mauser in
7.63mm Mauser. About same as a 32/20. This gets in same argument as deer guns. One guy swears by 223, another needs a 45/70. What everybody needs is a kill shot, not a wounding shot. Many a head of big game has been put down with a 22rf. That don’t make it a good choice. I would feel protected from mountain lion with 9mm but if hunting them would have 357 or better.
 
I don't know if he actually hit the animal or not.
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I would have fired more than once. After he quit moving, time to fire again! If he's still hasn't run off and he stands still again, time for fire again, etc, etc

Seems like the best defense in this situation is a little offense because if you don't kill or seriously wound this animal, he'll potentially sneak up on you later.

Kinda like dealing with criminals, if you don't get them they will likely get you.

I'd be thinking in terms of putting them down since they started the attack which causes one to fear for their life.



I'm all in favor of ethical hunting, but if an animal attacks me I am not interested in how much the animal might suffer, I'm concerned with how much I might suffer.
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That's exactly what I was thinking.

This is why I can't be around alligators or crocodiles cause if they act like they are going to attack, I reserve the right to self defense.

I've heard that if you shoot an alligator or a crocodile you'll be charged with a federal crime because these are protected under law.
 
I've deer hunted a reasonable amount with a muzzle loader. My largest 9 point buck was taken with one. He got exactly zero steps from where I shot him.

Because I shot him between the eye and the ear. I learned valuable lessons:
One of his huge antlers popped off.
a. You can't eat antlers
b. Shot placement is everything.

If we look at momentum as a factor, a friend hit a deer with her car at 30 miles per hour. That's about 88,000 ft-lbs of energy. The deer ran off many miles to presumably die, the car suffered major damage.

In addition to muzzle loaders, I shot a lot with T/C Contenders. Both of these reload fast enough in the field to occasionally get a second shot off.

But the OP is asking "Is my 9mm ENOUGH". My objection is that it's the wrong question. He should be asking something like

"Would you rather carry a Glock 19 or a Hi-Point .45 in the woods for bumming around."

My point of view is that I carry a pistol in the woods because I like pistols. I have not carried a pistol more times than not, yet I am just as alive as any of you.

After a lot of experience in the woods, having spent a long time at the range shooting paper, I learned a valuable thing- stuff goes seriously wrong shooting in the woods. Twigs, branches, blades of grass, who knows. Shots I was SURE I could not miss.. no way! I missed.

So in the end, for me, the only way to ethically hunt is with something in the .44 Magnum class or above. If I have to even think "Is this enough to hunt with?" the answer is "think how bad you'll feel if you wound an animal because something happened and because I was shooting something smaller out of prideful ego."

Is a 9mm 'enough' for a mountain lion? Anyone hunting mountain lions with a 9mm handgun should be arrested. That's not a responsible choice. If that's what you have in an unusual situation? Given some luck, it's a lot better than throwing a rock and more fun to carry in your pocket. I think bear spray is a higher percentage option, though.

Can you kill a grizzly bear with a .22 rimfire? Sure. Is that what you set out with to hunt grizzlys with, or did a strange circumstance present itself?

Anyways. I carry a pistol because I like to shoot pine cones and imagine I am an Alaskan Trapper or a Cowboy or a member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police with my dog Yukon King.

Actually, shooting around the dog is no fun. He brings the targets back to me. I have to go set them back up again.
 
Anyone hunting mountain lions with a 9mm handgun should be arrested
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Did the story say he was out there for the purpose of hunting mountain lions?
I must have missed that part of the story



shooting around the dog is no fun. He brings the targets back to me.
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I have a Paranoid Retriever... he brings back everything cause he's not sure what I threw!
 
1. Is 9mm an adequate caliber to stop an attacking mountain lion?

2. If so, what minimum load would work for this purpose?
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These are the questions in the OP.

and the answers are
1. Yes

2. Anything that will cycle the action.

Like ALL firearms the shooter has to put the bullet in the right place in order for it to work. Do that, and it will work.

Generally speaking, to stop an attacking animal you need to kill it, or do damage enough the animal can no longer physically attack. The 9mm has sufficient energy and penetration to do that, IF the bullet is put in the right spot. Even light loads have enough power to do that, IF the bullet is put in the right place.

Is the 9mm the best choice?? It wouldn't be my first choice, but the OP didn't ask what was best, it asked if the 9mm would work, and it will, with proper placement.

The OP did not ask about hunting. Hunting is a radically different situation, opinions and experience about hunting cougar do not answer the OP's questions.

Putting the bullet in the right spot in time to prevent an attacking cougar seriously injuring you isn't an easy thing. It could possibly be the most difficult task you ever face, but if the shooter can do it, the 9mm has the power to stop the attack.

So do a LOT of rounds, Since it is documented fact that people have stopped even larger and more powerful animals with even lighter rounds (including .22RF) the real question isn't "can the round do it" (the answer is "yes") the question should be, can you do it?
 
Except bear spray is known to be effective, and it does not kill the animal.

I agree that when a predator has it's mind determined on getting something, nothing but a central nervous system shot will stop it. And with cats, you may never see it coming.

Yes, a musket might be enough, with luck.
9mm might be enough, with luck.
A .22 might be enough, with luck. But it's also fun to carry around to shoot at pine cones and small game in season, bag a tin can and a nice revolver won't throw brass into the weeds.

My sister and brother-in-law managed a game preserve in Tanzania. No one walked around with a firearm unless they had the task of driving poachers. (The poachers were very poor people with rusty old muskets, not glamorous at all, just desperate.) They had lions, tigers, panthers, you name it. In all the time they were there, it was the crocodiles that got two peace corps. workers in a pool everyone knew had no crocs. Oh, a hippo almost got my Brother in Law, because the local trackers.. well, he has some hilarious stories.

For some reason, people are afraid of black bears and cougars. I believe this fear is falsely placed. I also believe that some people think the answer to everything is 'gun.' I happen to think this is because people make money selling guns and folks these days are not accustomed to spending time in the wilderness on a regular basis.

I have advocated above to carry a pistol in the woods for the purpose of "because I like pistols." As such, they should carry the pistol they enjoy shooting the most.

While I like my LCRX 3" 38 Special, I end up lugging my .32 H&R Magnum Single Six as much despite the inconvenience. Because.. I challenge you to shoot it without breaking into a smile. I guess both are 100% effective against mountain lions.. because here I am , still alive. I'd carry a .22 except I have not found one I like to carry and I love my bullseye .22 too much to bang it around.
 
Except bear spray is known to be effective, and it does not kill the animal.
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Would you stake your life on that just because you'd like to not see the animal get hurt???

I'd rather not see them hurt either, but if one comes after me I will open fire because bullets going in to their body is ultimately going to provide more protection for my life than spraying them with something that may or may not work.
 
Anything, even nothing, might be enough, with luck.

The question was about the physical capability of the round, not people's ability to use it effectively.
 
I saw vid if a thru hiker in either the Continental Divide Trail or the Pacfic Crest Trail run off a mountain lion with a harmonica. He was sizing her up and gathering for a spring. The Hoehner did it.

I do not claim to know Mountain Lion psychology.But maybe during conflict with some critters the mindset is "One of us is gonna die!" Maybe cape buffalo or big bears?

I've seen pix of what cougar does to a human face.head. lts severe! But my fantasy says maybe a lion MIGHT say "I bit of more than can chew" if you shoot them with a 9mm or stick them with a bayonet

MAYBE (i don't know) if they take some damage points they decide the dinner isn't worth it. And they walk/limp away.

Its maybe not the same as needing to "Stop" them in the sense of a .470 Nitro faithful "Silent" the Gunbearer just handed you. Maybe a 32 H+R would cause the lion to go "Dude!! What the.... That was not mellow!! NowIm going to leave!! I can't believe you shot me!!? These Texans keep moving here!!
 
The question was about the physical capability of the round, not people's ability to use it effectively.
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But, the effeteness of the round is entirely dependent upon the round being used effectively.

The very first effective use of any round is where it lands.


I do not claim to know Mountain Lion psychology
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I've noticed that this is a major missing part of this conversation... no Mountain Lion psychologist! ;)





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There is an old joke, supposedly an African folk saying,

One day you meet a lion on the trail, and the lion runs away. The next day you meet that lion's brother on the trail and your family wonders why you do not come home for dinner....

The point here is that animals are individuals, like people are. Most will usually act the same general way, but some will act differently, some extremely so.

Mountain lions (cougar, puma) are cats. Big cats, but cats. When I was young it was taught that cats are divided into two broad groups, those that purr and can not roar and those that roar and do not purr. Cougars are the biggest cat in the purrs but cannot roar group. (or at least in North America. I do not know if "science" has changed its mind in the years since I learned that, they now tell me rabbits are not rodents and Pluto is not a planet...:rolleyes:)

even though their common name has "lion" in it, they are not lions like African lions. They are more often like housecats in the their behavior. What I am referring to is the "cat" behavior when something startles them, and when something isn't what they expect, they tend to pause, or even bolt (dash away to some "safe" spot) while they try to figure out what to do.

And this is why the harmonica worked. Like running AT the cat screaming yelling and waving your arms sometimes works. Its not what the cat expects and SOMETIMES the cat will break off.

Each cat is just as individual as each person, or could be, so, there's no guarantee .

back to the OP, if you have to use it, AND you can use it correctly (not an easy or simple task when you're under attack) the 9mm Luger can stop a mountain lion.
 
I went to a roadside zoo in Florida years ago and they brought out a puma on a leash. I got to pet it, and it did purr.
 
Hey I see this thread has stirred further conversation. Thanks for the additional info. I am going backpacking in Southern Utah this weekend with Bear spray and one of my small 9mms. Save some weight.

Working with my collection, have rediscovered how fast I can shoot my M & P Compact.40 so that gets consideration for the future.

Stinkeypete, did anyone actually USE Bear spray on one of those big African animals?
 
People often grossly overestimate the durability of four-legged predators, often believing that practically anything larger than a snake is practically impervious to anything but Magnum Handgun Cartridges.

In short, a 9mm can kill most four-legged North American predators, including Mountain Lions, but if you feel more confident carrying a .500 S&W Magnum Revolver, then more power to you. Just make sure that you pack a Rain Poncho as well to keep your clothes clean/dry after you eviscerate a Coyote with that cannon.
 
I watched a local video posted in my fb page a few days ago. After about 4 in of snow,morning. Typical housing development,ranch style homes, maybe 1/4 acre lots. The Northern Colorado town I live in. I'd guess 150.000 population.
And a pair of Mountain Lions out for a stroll, slowly walking down the sidewalk/gutter/front yards,around the parked cars.

Its not unusual. We have a neighborhood deer herd. They like my apple trees.

So does a red fox I see often. The occasional skunk. Racoons (trash pandas) are an annoying destructive pest.

Shooting is out of the question. Its a residential neighborhood. And its not out in the foothills, my development was built in 1969. I'm a mile inside the West edge of developed town. There is a middle school and a grade school within easy walking distance. And a park. Kids do walk to and from school through here.

Im saying in my part of the world,"lion country" may be the front yard.
 
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