Is 5 rounds enough?
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Frankly 45
New member
Five shots should at the very least create enough surprise, and confusion, to help you effectively retreat. To me, that would be your best chance of survivng 3 armed attackers, unless your skills and tactics are far superior to theirs.
Double Naught Spy
New member
While I agree that 5 rounds will work in most self defense situations, is it really that much of a problem to carry a bigger revolver or carry a semi-automatic?
Many of the posts here refer to what will happen in most situations. While fairly accurate, do you really care what happens in most situations? At the time of conflict, what happens in most situations is not relevant. All that is relevant is what is happening in YOUR situation. In most situations, you shoot the first guy and the other two flee. In your situation, you have a situational 50/50 chance that if you shoot the first guy, the other two will flee. Either it happens or not. If it does, good for you. If it doesn't, your whole "most situations" paradigm just cratered to hell and now you are operating in the unfamiliar territory. So, your situation has gone to hell because it isn't what happens normally and your brought your normal or most situations 5 shot revolver.
LEOs train for a variety of types of situations and some have very good training but it still does not go far enough when they end up in non-normal situations. When they encounter those situations, often there are a lot of people hurt or killed such as in the FBI shootout in Miami and the North Hollywood bank robbery. In both cases, you had trained professionals geared up for what happens in most situations for their line of work which is quite likely a lot worse more commonly than what most civilians would encounter. The FBI shootout in Miami taught the FBI that revolvers were not the way to go for a fire fight and three were caught behind a car reloading revolvers when they were put down.
The arguments for "most situations" are really problematic. First of all, if you are carrying a gun, then you are preparing yourself for something that does not happen in most situations of your life, right? Day in and day out, chances are that you will never need to draw your gun on another human and if you do, there are good chances that you won't need to fire it. During that rare incident in your life where you produce a gun, you are no longer in your "most situation" mind set because in most situations, your gun remains holstered. As the gun is produced by either you or a bad guy, the situational stakes just went up to the ultimate level, life or death. As shots do ring out in YOUR non "most situations" situation life and death gun battle, do you take stock in the fact that you don't feel outgunned because you have five whole shots to use to defend your life against three armed guys who probably have anywhere between 15 and 60 rounds between them loaded in their guns? Well, it does not matter really if you feel outgunned or not. Your whole "most situations" paradigm went to hell and the fact is you are terribly outgunned.
Personally, I feel remarks like "5 shots are enough for most situations" and "is better than nothing" are just poor excuses for not arming oneself better. If you are going to arm yourself, it really does not take that much extra time, space, or energy to arm yourself better than carrying just five shots.
Many of the posts here refer to what will happen in most situations. While fairly accurate, do you really care what happens in most situations? At the time of conflict, what happens in most situations is not relevant. All that is relevant is what is happening in YOUR situation. In most situations, you shoot the first guy and the other two flee. In your situation, you have a situational 50/50 chance that if you shoot the first guy, the other two will flee. Either it happens or not. If it does, good for you. If it doesn't, your whole "most situations" paradigm just cratered to hell and now you are operating in the unfamiliar territory. So, your situation has gone to hell because it isn't what happens normally and your brought your normal or most situations 5 shot revolver.
LEOs train for a variety of types of situations and some have very good training but it still does not go far enough when they end up in non-normal situations. When they encounter those situations, often there are a lot of people hurt or killed such as in the FBI shootout in Miami and the North Hollywood bank robbery. In both cases, you had trained professionals geared up for what happens in most situations for their line of work which is quite likely a lot worse more commonly than what most civilians would encounter. The FBI shootout in Miami taught the FBI that revolvers were not the way to go for a fire fight and three were caught behind a car reloading revolvers when they were put down.
The arguments for "most situations" are really problematic. First of all, if you are carrying a gun, then you are preparing yourself for something that does not happen in most situations of your life, right? Day in and day out, chances are that you will never need to draw your gun on another human and if you do, there are good chances that you won't need to fire it. During that rare incident in your life where you produce a gun, you are no longer in your "most situation" mind set because in most situations, your gun remains holstered. As the gun is produced by either you or a bad guy, the situational stakes just went up to the ultimate level, life or death. As shots do ring out in YOUR non "most situations" situation life and death gun battle, do you take stock in the fact that you don't feel outgunned because you have five whole shots to use to defend your life against three armed guys who probably have anywhere between 15 and 60 rounds between them loaded in their guns? Well, it does not matter really if you feel outgunned or not. Your whole "most situations" paradigm went to hell and the fact is you are terribly outgunned.
Personally, I feel remarks like "5 shots are enough for most situations" and "is better than nothing" are just poor excuses for not arming oneself better. If you are going to arm yourself, it really does not take that much extra time, space, or energy to arm yourself better than carrying just five shots.
VictorLouis
New member
Maybe, or maybe not.
However, I'm pretty at-ease with five rounds backed-up by five more
Sure, there's a reload or two in the pocket; but, I could probably do without it.
However, I'm pretty at-ease with five rounds backed-up by five more
Sure, there's a reload or two in the pocket; but, I could probably do without it.Robert Foote
New member
Probably--if you can live with 'probably'
Most of the time my carry piece is a 4" .357 revolver. I would estimate that, all things considered, it is about four times more effective than the M442 S&W in my pocket when the .357 is just not practical. At least that is my conclusion when you add up power, controllability, and more years shooting the bigger gun.
The 442 has its place and serves me well as an 'always' piece. I like it. I do not go into harm's way much these days, and if I sense that might happen I don't mind inconveniencing myself with a bigger and better gun. (Right on up to an M1A, if that's what it takes!)
I think the 5 shot 442 will do its part if I use my head, keep my mouth shut, and don't get in too deep from stupidity. So far it's worked. I always carry a full reload, but think pulling off a reload for it under pressure would be 'challenging'.
Most of the time my carry piece is a 4" .357 revolver. I would estimate that, all things considered, it is about four times more effective than the M442 S&W in my pocket when the .357 is just not practical. At least that is my conclusion when you add up power, controllability, and more years shooting the bigger gun.
The 442 has its place and serves me well as an 'always' piece. I like it. I do not go into harm's way much these days, and if I sense that might happen I don't mind inconveniencing myself with a bigger and better gun. (Right on up to an M1A, if that's what it takes!)
I think the 5 shot 442 will do its part if I use my head, keep my mouth shut, and don't get in too deep from stupidity. So far it's worked. I always carry a full reload, but think pulling off a reload for it under pressure would be 'challenging'.
Will Batayte
New member
I carry either my glock 26 or my SP 101 .357 at all times. I don't feel under guned with the 5 shot. And as far as missing an attacker in most situations the attacker is gonna be 10 feet away or less. At that range I don't see how anyone could miss a chest shot.
The likelihood of needing to use a gun for self defense is completely unrelated to the sufficiency of any stated number of rounds. It doesn't matter if only 1 out of 1,000,000,000 gunnies ever needs to use the gun - on that one occasion he might need 12 rounds.
And he might need 1. Or none.
I can sure tell who's never run any realistic shooting drills here. Running out of ammo before you run out of targets is NOT A Good Thing.
Excellent question for general conversation & kicking around ...
Like the rest of us, I've asked myself that from time to time ...
I've taken to carrying a 642-1 off duty quite a bit, mostly since it's summer and I'm more comfortable wearing lighter & cooler clothing while riding my motorcycle. The 642-1 fits very easily into a mini camera case that nobody looks twice at ...
Back to the subject, though ...
While I usually carry anywhere from 2 Speed Strips to several speed loaders, I still only have 5 rounds in the weapon, and this factors into my practice and training. The proper use of the first 5, and whether or not they're sufficient for the situation, will determine whether thinking about the speed loaders is a moot point.
When I reached the point where I could make rapid head shots on a target set out between 5-7 yards, while moving laterally, I decided it was a reasonable risk to carry it as my only weapon at times. To test this ability I used a qualification scenario we had a while ago, where the shooters had to make COM hits with their pistols while moving. Instead of COM hits though, I trained until I could restrict myself to head shots, and do it faster than almost all of our folks could do COM hits with their pistols. As long as I take the time necessary to maintain this level of proficiency I'm comfortable carrying a 5-shot snubnose.
Hey, for the first 6 years of my job I carried a 6-shot revolver with only 12, and later 18, extra rounds of ammunition ... but I only had the initial 6 rounds available before reloading. I guess I just didn't know any better back then ..
Like the rest of us, I've asked myself that from time to time ...
I've taken to carrying a 642-1 off duty quite a bit, mostly since it's summer and I'm more comfortable wearing lighter & cooler clothing while riding my motorcycle. The 642-1 fits very easily into a mini camera case that nobody looks twice at ...
Back to the subject, though ...
While I usually carry anywhere from 2 Speed Strips to several speed loaders, I still only have 5 rounds in the weapon, and this factors into my practice and training. The proper use of the first 5, and whether or not they're sufficient for the situation, will determine whether thinking about the speed loaders is a moot point.
When I reached the point where I could make rapid head shots on a target set out between 5-7 yards, while moving laterally, I decided it was a reasonable risk to carry it as my only weapon at times. To test this ability I used a qualification scenario we had a while ago, where the shooters had to make COM hits with their pistols while moving. Instead of COM hits though, I trained until I could restrict myself to head shots, and do it faster than almost all of our folks could do COM hits with their pistols. As long as I take the time necessary to maintain this level of proficiency I'm comfortable carrying a 5-shot snubnose.
Hey, for the first 6 years of my job I carried a 6-shot revolver with only 12, and later 18, extra rounds of ammunition ... but I only had the initial 6 rounds available before reloading. I guess I just didn't know any better back then ..
I find it interesting how many of you seem to know what the bad guys are going to do and what you are going to do and how you are going to shoot.
Without trying to flame anyone, I question how many of you have ever been in an armed confrontation. Being there and looking down the barrel of a gun, seeing the glint of street lights off a knife blade, or the swing of a tire iron in the hands of a drunk will change your perspective.
Five is only enough until you need six. A 38 Special out of a 2" barrel is enough until it doesn't stop. Your skill is sufficient until you needed to be just a little better. You probably won't ever need a gun until it becomes the single most important thing between you and eternity.
The self satisfied complaciency here is a little disturbing.
Without trying to flame anyone, I question how many of you have ever been in an armed confrontation. Being there and looking down the barrel of a gun, seeing the glint of street lights off a knife blade, or the swing of a tire iron in the hands of a drunk will change your perspective.
Five is only enough until you need six. A 38 Special out of a 2" barrel is enough until it doesn't stop. Your skill is sufficient until you needed to be just a little better. You probably won't ever need a gun until it becomes the single most important thing between you and eternity.
The self satisfied complaciency here is a little disturbing.
Brian Williams
New member
I would like to think five rounds is enough cause I just plunked a deposit down on a 5 shot Taurus Tracker in 45 Colt with a 4" tube.
I normally carry a S&W mod 60 w/ 3" tube and i feel comfortable. I occasionally slip in my S&W 65 with a 4" tube
I now will have an additional piece to use. The Tracker is about a 3/16" shorter than a S&W K frame at the back of the hump, and the cylinder is about the same size. It feels lighter and handles just a good as a K frame.
I think if I pulled it in a Gun fight and touched off a round of 230gr LSWC??? who knows?????
I carry because I can, not because I want to start a fight. Therefor I will carry what has been long touted as enough.
I have a Glock 19 and am looking for a BHP and 1911 to round out my collection, maybe a SIG 220???
The Tracker is going to be my hunting gun mostly a with a few carry times.
I normally carry a S&W mod 60 w/ 3" tube and i feel comfortable. I occasionally slip in my S&W 65 with a 4" tube
I now will have an additional piece to use. The Tracker is about a 3/16" shorter than a S&W K frame at the back of the hump, and the cylinder is about the same size. It feels lighter and handles just a good as a K frame.
I think if I pulled it in a Gun fight and touched off a round of 230gr LSWC??? who knows?????
I carry because I can, not because I want to start a fight. Therefor I will carry what has been long touted as enough.
I have a Glock 19 and am looking for a BHP and 1911 to round out my collection, maybe a SIG 220???
The Tracker is going to be my hunting gun mostly a with a few carry times.
Perhaps, but entirely understandable.
The decision of what (and indeed IF) to carry is a decision like any other, you weigh the costs and benefits. You'll need a lot of 9's after the 99% to express how unlikely it is to ever receive any material benefit from carrying. We carry because it gives us piece of mind about the remaining fraction of a percent.
Sure, you can move from a S&W 60 with no reload to a G20 with two spare mags, but is it worth it? If you live in a temperate-to-cold climate and have to worry about roving street gangs, probably. If you live in an upscale southwestern suburb, probably not. The point is that only YOU can make that decision. The only value in debates like this one is they give you more information to consider in making your choice.
As for me, I can't carry at all, as my county's sheriff won't issue permits except to political cronies. So the "better than nothing" argument,that some here have denigrated, really resonates with me. Hell, I'd feel a bit safer with 4 shots of .22LR than with what I have, which is nothing. Now that I think of it, I'm surprised no one's mentioned the fact that some people get by with a few rounds of .32 or .380 to ease their minds.
Robert Foote
New member
Dave T: I have the T shirt...
...and have been there more than once. So don't assume.
I have a definite preference for guns with a solid track record of reliability shooting a cartridge with an equally good record. I also always cheat. Always.
But I do recall that one of those times (off duty, late at night, on the highway) was with a J frame at that. I don't think the opposition would have disappeared much faster if I'd had something belt fed.
I no longer am paid to go out and find trouble and deal with it. I'm now free to match what I am going to carry that day with what I propose to do and where I'm going to do it. Rest assured that I have no problem being overdressed for the occasion.
Proper mindset and tactics with a J frame beats condition black and a Glock.
...and have been there more than once. So don't assume.
I have a definite preference for guns with a solid track record of reliability shooting a cartridge with an equally good record. I also always cheat. Always.
But I do recall that one of those times (off duty, late at night, on the highway) was with a J frame at that. I don't think the opposition would have disappeared much faster if I'd had something belt fed.
I no longer am paid to go out and find trouble and deal with it. I'm now free to match what I am going to carry that day with what I propose to do and where I'm going to do it. Rest assured that I have no problem being overdressed for the occasion.
Proper mindset and tactics with a J frame beats condition black and a Glock.
Dave T,
Since your post followed mine, I wonder if perhaps my post somehow was responsible for prompting yours, or at least contributing to it ...
If so, I didn't mean to make it sound so filled with "self satisfied complacency". Honest.
Your point is well intended, I'm sure ... and most of it seems bluntly enough phrased to seem sincere.
After more than 30 years in the martial arts, I've learned how easily anyone can be hurt. Especially the complacent ... and I include myself.
Afte more than 20 years in law enforcement, I've learned a firearm isn't always the necessary or appropriate response, even in those situations involving a seemingly immediate threat of serious bodily injury or death ...
More than 20 years ago a dusted young man attempted to gut me with a Chicago Cutlery boning knife. Yes, it's amazing the details you notice while the overhead lights are glinting off the fast moving knife blade mere inches from some significant part of your anatomy. You're certainly right in that regard, although I realize you didn't actually say it quite that way.
Although I was unarmed, and he was intent on trying his best to stick the knife in one side and out the other ... he failed. I was uninjured. Thankfully so ...
I'm not sure having one of my high capacity pistols, with several extra magazines ... or only my occasional 5-shot .38 ... would've changed the outcome or my perspective.
Life, whether working in law enforcement or some other job, is a continuing exercise in risk assessment and risk management. All we may do is reasonably try to prepare ourselves to identify problems, adapt, and attempt to overcome them somehow. I suspect it's the ability to remain flexible, and willing to attempt to resolve life's little situations with the options at hand that gives us our best advantage ...
I may still elect to occasionally go about unarmed, or I may carry a high capacity weapon and upwards of 50 rounds of ammunition about my person, or I may carry my little 5-shot .38 snubnose.
While I realize and accept the possibility that whatever my choice, it may prove to be insufficient to meet the problems I encounter, I'll try not be too complacent about the possibilties.
And I really do train with my 5-shot .38 in the manner I described, just in case I'm left with that as the only option available to me, as I have a fair grasp of the limitations of both caliber & weapon, even in the most optimistic of conditions. Will it be sufficient? God alone knows ...
And if you didn't intend your response to be directed at me, I'd be pleased if you'd just consider this reply as a friendly exchange of opinion and perspective ...
Stay well, and let's continue to hope the faith and trust placed in us as trainers is not only justified, but always remains so ...
Since your post followed mine, I wonder if perhaps my post somehow was responsible for prompting yours, or at least contributing to it ...
If so, I didn't mean to make it sound so filled with "self satisfied complacency". Honest.
Your point is well intended, I'm sure ... and most of it seems bluntly enough phrased to seem sincere.
After more than 30 years in the martial arts, I've learned how easily anyone can be hurt. Especially the complacent ... and I include myself.
Afte more than 20 years in law enforcement, I've learned a firearm isn't always the necessary or appropriate response, even in those situations involving a seemingly immediate threat of serious bodily injury or death ...
More than 20 years ago a dusted young man attempted to gut me with a Chicago Cutlery boning knife. Yes, it's amazing the details you notice while the overhead lights are glinting off the fast moving knife blade mere inches from some significant part of your anatomy. You're certainly right in that regard, although I realize you didn't actually say it quite that way.
Although I was unarmed, and he was intent on trying his best to stick the knife in one side and out the other ... he failed. I was uninjured. Thankfully so ...
I'm not sure having one of my high capacity pistols, with several extra magazines ... or only my occasional 5-shot .38 ... would've changed the outcome or my perspective.
Life, whether working in law enforcement or some other job, is a continuing exercise in risk assessment and risk management. All we may do is reasonably try to prepare ourselves to identify problems, adapt, and attempt to overcome them somehow. I suspect it's the ability to remain flexible, and willing to attempt to resolve life's little situations with the options at hand that gives us our best advantage ...
I may still elect to occasionally go about unarmed, or I may carry a high capacity weapon and upwards of 50 rounds of ammunition about my person, or I may carry my little 5-shot .38 snubnose.
While I realize and accept the possibility that whatever my choice, it may prove to be insufficient to meet the problems I encounter, I'll try not be too complacent about the possibilties.
And I really do train with my 5-shot .38 in the manner I described, just in case I'm left with that as the only option available to me, as I have a fair grasp of the limitations of both caliber & weapon, even in the most optimistic of conditions. Will it be sufficient? God alone knows ...
And if you didn't intend your response to be directed at me, I'd be pleased if you'd just consider this reply as a friendly exchange of opinion and perspective ...
Stay well, and let's continue to hope the faith and trust placed in us as trainers is not only justified, but always remains so ...
I certainly hope so, since I'm betting my life on it.
The real reason I carry my S&W 642 is because it is do damned concealable, not because the caliber/gun was my first choice. Not too many guns fit my (skinny) body without printing like an adolescent male's--ahem!--at a bikini contest.
Sure, I'd love to be able to carry my CZ75BD or my 1911 but, if I did that, I might as well pin my CCW permit to my shirt.
One thing I've thought of, but I haven't followed through on, is to buy another 642 and carry that too, thereby giving me one of the quickest reloads around. I doubt I'll do that though, at least in my present part of the country. If I were to move back to my birthplace, Detroit, however, I would definitely do so.
DAL
P.S. I didn't mean to impugn the 642 by what I said above. For what it is, it is a darn fine little snubbie. It's just that it is a compromise (something that life's full of--and as long as you don't compromise your basic, rational, well-reasoned principles, there's nothing wrong with intelligent compromises).
The real reason I carry my S&W 642 is because it is do damned concealable, not because the caliber/gun was my first choice. Not too many guns fit my (skinny) body without printing like an adolescent male's--ahem!--at a bikini contest.
Sure, I'd love to be able to carry my CZ75BD or my 1911 but, if I did that, I might as well pin my CCW permit to my shirt.
One thing I've thought of, but I haven't followed through on, is to buy another 642 and carry that too, thereby giving me one of the quickest reloads around. I doubt I'll do that though, at least in my present part of the country. If I were to move back to my birthplace, Detroit, however, I would definitely do so.
DAL
P.S. I didn't mean to impugn the 642 by what I said above. For what it is, it is a darn fine little snubbie. It's just that it is a compromise (something that life's full of--and as long as you don't compromise your basic, rational, well-reasoned principles, there's nothing wrong with intelligent compromises).
fastbolt,
You said life, "...is a continuing exercise in risk assessment and risk management." and then added later, "...it's the ability to remain flexible, and willing to attempt to resolve life's little situations with the options at hand that gives us our best advantage ...".
I couldn't agree more. I was not responding to your post but rather the general tone of "the punks will run away", "my 38 is more than enough", and "I'll just shoot him in the left nostril". With that mind set, when things don't work out just exactly the way they expect them to the response is too often a open mouthed expression of dumfounded amazement.
There is an old adage I first heard in Vietnam, from people who had seen many more shots fired in anger than I had. The best battle plan in the world becomes null and void as soon as the first round is fired. My law enforcement experiences suggest that is just as true for personal defense situations as for military units in forign lands.
Assuming you have all the answers, the perfect equipment, and all the training you need is to prepare to loose. Sorry if that offends but it doesn't change just because someone doesn't like it.
You said life, "...is a continuing exercise in risk assessment and risk management." and then added later, "...it's the ability to remain flexible, and willing to attempt to resolve life's little situations with the options at hand that gives us our best advantage ...".
I couldn't agree more. I was not responding to your post but rather the general tone of "the punks will run away", "my 38 is more than enough", and "I'll just shoot him in the left nostril". With that mind set, when things don't work out just exactly the way they expect them to the response is too often a open mouthed expression of dumfounded amazement.
There is an old adage I first heard in Vietnam, from people who had seen many more shots fired in anger than I had. The best battle plan in the world becomes null and void as soon as the first round is fired. My law enforcement experiences suggest that is just as true for personal defense situations as for military units in forign lands.
Assuming you have all the answers, the perfect equipment, and all the training you need is to prepare to loose. Sorry if that offends but it doesn't change just because someone doesn't like it.
Gentlemen, please pardon my bluntness, but that is bliss ninny 'thinking'. If you find your self in a situation where you need 6 rounds, you will need six rounds no matter HOW much you spent on your 5 rounder. OR how much confidence you have in it.
There are more than a few folks here that need to listen to the wisdom expressed by fastbolt and Dave T.
Cost, benefits, and risk. The continual balancing act. And neither irrational justifications nor complacency will ever help you out of a difficult situation.
You pays your money, and you takes your chances.
I like stacking the deck, myself.
SouthpawShootr
New member
I would carry at least one speedloader or speedstrip. Probably 2. You probably won't need it as extended gunfire exchanges are rare with non-LE civilian uses. But it is comforting and sometimes necessary to have extra ammo. If you are looking for justification for carrying extra rounds, just look at your local PD. Officers typically carry 45 rounds total (assuming 9mm) and they are in constant radio contact in a volatile situation. As a civilian, you don't have the advantage of instantly being able to summon an essentially inexhaustable supply of manpower and firepower (for LEOs, dispatch knows where you are and all you need to do is utter the code for officer need help). Cell phones are great, but there is a much greater time lag before back-up arrives and triangulating your position is a feature just now becoming available. As a non-LEO, you generally are not going to be exposed to the same risk level, but you may inadvertently be present during an armed robbery/hostage situation. This is probably the only time when an extended firefight can ensue. Even in this case it is better to just sit tight ready to act than start shooting (unless the perp takes a notion to start killing hostages).
Might even be better to have two revolvers of the same caliber on you.
Might even be better to have two revolvers of the same caliber on you.
Brian Williams
New member
Sir if you think that I am a bliss ninny for getting a five round revolverthen I am going to say you must be a "Mall Ninja" or a Tactical ninny.
How many 5 shot revolvers are purchased every day????
BUT, How many of us practice and use their weapons to be ready for an event described as above. I practice with my S&W 3" mod 60, my S&W 4" mod65, and Glock 19. No I am not a LEO but I am a former Marine. I do recognize the fact that I have to live with my eyes and ears open. I live in a pretty nasty area of downtown and I have seen and tried to prevent a knifing acros the street from my front door, 3/4 of the murders in Lancaster, PA have happened within 4 blocks of my house. I carry what works in most personal defence situations, those 3 shots, 3 seconds and 3 feet.
I hope and pray I never have to use a gun.
am I prepared enough, probably not
am I outgunned, possibly
am I gonna try my best to make the other guy the loser, you bet