IRS being hung on it's own petard...

W

Wallew

Moderator
IRS: Gut Schulz v IRS
DOJ: Court's Opinion Threatens Tax System

The government's motion is evidence that IRS is obviously upset with the Court’s opinion that held that the recipient of an IRS administrative summons “cannot be held in contempt, arrested, detained, or otherwise punished for refusing to comply with the original IRS summons, no matter the taxpayer’s reasons or lack of reasons for so refusing."

http://www.givemeliberty.org/RTPLawsuit/Update2005-03-09.htm

This one's GONNA GET INTERESTING!
 
Definatly interesting

I am glad that decision was made that way. Too often people just seem to look at something like that and comply. Finally someone stood up for their rights and a part of our governmetn supported them.

-j
 
To IRS: Those checks and balances can be a b:)tch sometimes. :D

Score one for the courts. It's about time they started to reassert their power.
 
Then there was Mary Kuglin's recent aquittal by a Federal jury - the IRS could not prove it's claim that she must pay "income tax". This case to my knowledge has not been appealed and still stands.
 
LAK do you have a cite for that case? It would be VERY interesting indeed. Imagine not having to pay income taxes :) I bet the government would fall rather quickly if they couldnt steal 20-40% of everyone's paycheck.
 
It's quite interesting, isn't it - hooray for the court, in keeping the separation between civil matters and criminal (contempt) matters. The traditional rule is, you cannot be held liable for contempt (with criminal penalties ensuing, including home invasion/search/arrest) unless you've been served with process at a minimim, and served IN PERSON. Sounds like the IRS was trying to have their cake and eat it too. They wanted to use an ordinary first class mail summons - to cheap to pay a process server - (which may or may actually reach the defendant), and use criminal penalties therefrom when not answered. Tsk, tsk, tsk...thank gawd for the rule of law and separation of powers. Now if it just holds up...

[P.S. The Kuglin thing is bunk though...there have been many people convicted of filing false returns and W-4s. We've been down that road many times. The law, the tax code, most certainly does require one to pay income taxes. The question is, what does the word "require" mean - what are the penalties if you don't? That's always the relevant question in the law - so what if I do/don't do X? If you're *self-employed*, you can file returns and choose not to *voluntarily* pay income taxes, and provided that you don't file false returns, or fail to file returns, you are not held CRIMINALLY liable. You ARE held civilly liable, meaning that collection activities can and will ensue (liens, levys, etc). If you're willing to put up with that, or you ain't got nothing, then you may choose to do that. UNFORTUNATELY, if you work for another, you can't do this without committning fraud, such as putting 99 on your W-4. Becoming self-employed is the only way to do it, and steer clear of CRIMINAL penalties. Still, having said that, it'd be interesting to see what the deficiency in the prosecutor's case was/is in Kuglin.]
 
There's another little known form that is called a "In lieu of W-4 form" and is generally made by the citizen and certified by signature. The required text is set forth in the tax code book and must contain two certain statements.

Paraphrased;

That the citizen was not liable for Income tax for the preceding year...and

That the citizen does not expect to be liable for Income Tax for the present year.

The form is to be filed and kept on record with the employer. I did this a few years back and my employer didn't understand it, so took it upon himself to fill out a W-4 for me and put in 99 exemptions. I got the letter of the unlawful form from the IRS and promptly wrote them back (certified) ststing that I did not file a W-4 with him and that he had the proper form on file. They visited him and found the In lieu of form and dropped the issue. Then they went ahead and filed a judgement on my credit (Without me ever having gone to court!!) for 56K dollars.

(Required is code talk for we got the machineguns and color of law so we'll come get you if you do not comply,)

I can reference the taxcode book later if you wish with section numbers for the required wording of the In lieu of form, but I'm out the door to work right now so no time.
 
FirstFreedom,

The reason most (and not all have failed in the past either) previous attempts to defy the IRS have failed is that the IRS has it's own "Tax Court" - and the normal rules of evidence etc do not apply. It is a kangaroo court.

I do not know how Kuglin got her case with the IRS into a regular Federal Court, and that is a first as far as I know. But I am not shocked she won; there is no law that requires most people to pay a Federal "income tax". What the IRS is running is called a constructive fraud.
 
Consumption Taxes are problematic for .gov. They leave no way to get their hands on taxes from monies people don't spend. Imagine a world where you keep what you earn if you save it. Unheard of!
Rich
 
The 'FAIR TAX' will KILL our economy. It will kill the real estate market, for there will NO LONGER BE any deductions for all that money you borrowed to buy that home.

This has been tried against the 'wealthy' several years ago. It was called something like "Luxury item tax" where the richest of the rich had to start paying SEVERE penalties if they bought a new boat (think mega ship), an airplane or luxury car (like a Rolls Royce).

Well guess what happened? THE RICH STOPPED BUYING ALL THOSE 'TOYS' and the boat building industry came THIS CLOSE to collapsing entirely here in the US. It also gave 'offshore' boat builders (Asian ship yards) to get a toe hold here in the US.

The FINAL RESULTS were that the US ship builders went to Congress and pleaded their case. As the results were exactly opposite than what was expected (ie, you stop buying expensive luxury items because they tack on fifty percent to the costs - bingo - NO MORE INDUSTRY to get those taxes from), THIS LAW WAS REPEALED.

The same holds true for any 'flat tax' scheme also.

Finally, eveyone seems to NOT understand what's going on here. The IRS has been 'collecting taxes' from us for the past seventy plus years ILLEGALLY. They don't have ONE LAW they can show that what they are doing is legal and the only way to fund the US government and all it's silly wasteful programs. The ONLY TAXES the US government is supposed to collect LEGALLY are IMPORT DUTIES.

THAT'S ALL. END OF STORY. Don't believe me? Then KINDLY SHOW ME or Kuglins JUDGE the piece of IRS code that states this. There has been a $10,000 ($100,000 ?) OFFER made to anyone who CAN PROVE that we are supposed to be paying all those taxes.

And if the US government wants to resolve the issue of stealing our daily bread, which is what INCOME TAXES DO, then they should just legalize all drugs, as the income from taxes raised on the sales of marijuana alone are said to be three to FIVE times the amount the US government currently spends every year. Which means in the FIRST YEAR ALONE, we could pay off our 'national debt' and they would still have two times what they spend to play with.

Sickening if you think about it.
 
From what I understand, the income tax does nothing to help our country in any way. It all goes to pay the interest on the debt and not a dollar of it helps any program whatsoever that is beneficial to the American people.

The government is big business and is self sustaining and would not require any monies from a people source to operate and fulfill its duties to the public.

State sales taxes fix the roads and operate the schools etc..A flat tax/fair tax would help us how? Where would the money be allocated? Provide source of info please.

It's about the land, they don't want to pay off the debt. They want the country. Control the land, control the commerce, control the people.
 
It'a all about the land!

Edward429451,

It's about the land, they don't want to pay off the debt. They want the country. Control the land, control the commerce, control the people.
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YOU KNOCKED IT RIGHT OUT OF THE PARK!

It is indeed about the land. And make no mistake, you ONLY RENT the house you are paying the mortgage on FROM THE GOVERNMENT.

You (and everyone else, including myself) will only hold a 'Deed of Trust' once you have paid off the bank, thinking you 'own' your property. YOU do not. The government owns all land. Don't believe that statement, try to NOT pay the taxes that are assessed every year. You will be out on your ear so quick, it will make your head spin.

There IS a way to properly file the paperwork with the state you live in that you are basically declaring yourself a 'free man' who owns this piece of property and are 'beholding to no man or governance'. The only problem is my understanding is it takes an act of GOD to get that paperwork through your state government.

Hey, where would our government be if they COULDN'T steal from us on a daily basis?

FirstFreedom,

The Kuglin thing is bunk though...there have been many people convicted of filing false returns and W-4s. We've been down that road many times. The law, the tax code, most certainly does require one to pay income taxes.
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Actually, the Kuglin case is but ONE OF MANY IRS court cases that are in the federal court systems. Normally, the courts 'go along' with the IRS, generally with a wink and a nod.

THIS IS THE BEGINING OF THE END of the IRS. And the federal government, YES INCLUDING THE PRESIDENT, know this and are trying to come up with a different PONZI SCHEME to part us from our hard earned money.

Finally, eveyone seems to NOT understand what's going on here. The IRS has been 'collecting taxes' from us for the past seventy plus years ILLEGALLY. They don't have ONE LAW they can show that what they are doing is legal and the only way to fund the US government and all it's silly wasteful programs. The ONLY TAXES the US government is supposed to collect LEGALLY are IMPORT DUTIES.
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WILL SOMEONE, ANYONE kindly find the law that says the federal or state government IS ALLOWED TO TAKE TAXES out of our wages earned?????
 
It is indeed about the land. And make no mistake, you ONLY RENT the house you are paying the mortgage on FROM THE GOVERNMENT.
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Yes. My understanding is that when they forclose on the national debt, all FDIC insured houses/land is the collateral for the loan. We'll all have new landlords, not a shot fired.

The paperwork to declare to actually receive the clear title on the house/land is called an alloidial title and makes the land totally free from being able to be leined and property taxes also, IIRC. No RE agent will admit to its existance, and the book is like 300 bucks to buy to learn how to do it right.

WILL SOMEONE, ANYONE kindly find the law that says the federal or state government IS ALLOWED TO TAKE TAXES out of our wages earned?????
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I CAN!!! It's section 3402n of the tax code. The caveat that most people do not realize is that filling out the W-4 form IS THE PERMISSION SLIP FOR THEM TO DO IT, or rather for your employer to do it which leaves the gubmint blameless in the whole thing. The tax code is based on self assemt and voluntary compliance. If you assess yourself and fill out the W-4 in compliance and error, thats your problem and not theirs, get it?

Color of law and lots of deception. Most people want to be seen as law abiding so go with the flow, in error.
 
The paperwork to declare to actually receive the clear title on the house/land is called an alloidial title and makes the land totally free from being able to be leined and property taxes also, IIRC. No RE agent will admit to its existance, and the book is like 300 bucks to buy to learn how to do it right.
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Here we go again...the Conspiracy of Silence....this time the Entire Real Estate Profession. :rolleyes:

Edward-
Wanna make a small fortune? Buy the book for $300 and resell the info for $15. If it is what you say, and all the Realtors are conspiring to hide it, you'll sell several hundred thousand copies in a year.....easy.
Rich
 
The realators hide it because (as I understand it), you could move in, get the alloidial title and default the loan and they couldn't do anything about it.

C'mon Rich, no conspiracy of silence? Don't be naive, sir. It happens in most all industry's. If people knew that jewelery was marked up 1000%, the jewelrey market would crash. (Master Jeweler for friend). Your 1000 dollar ring you bought your wife cost the jeweler around 100 bucks max.

And so forth all across the board...Different specifics for different industry's. I kid you not. There are things that they do not want you to know. They call them trade secrets or proprietary info to sweeten it up so it don't sound so black bag to us mere sheeple.
 
Unbelievable:
- Spent 3 Years as a Medicare Analyst for Uncle Fed....never signed a secrecy agreement about anything.
- Spent 10 years building a health care delivery system....was never privy to one piece of info not in the public domain.
- Went public with the company; sold it; took another public....not a hint from Wall Street of issues I couldn't talk about.
- Spent 4 years in the magazine industry (spell that m-e-d-i-a)....can't find a single issue of which I'm not allowed to speak freely.

Jewelry markup? Common knowledge that it's high.....so is the markup on attorney bills. So what?

But the entire Real Estate Industry? Including all those part time, yenta housewives? Including all those bright entrepreneurs....and NOT ONE has started a company exploiting this "little known" tax-saver? I'm telling you, Edward, you can make a bloody fortune here.
Rich
 
Edward429451 said:
If people knew that jewelery was marked up 1000%, the jewelrey market would crash.
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:eek: Uh oh... The secret's out. :rolleyes:

I'm calling my broker right now and selling off every share of Signet Group I own! ;)
 
Most RE agents probably do not know about it, the higher ups probably cant trust them either. Even the IRS agents do not get a copy of the (complete) tax code to study, just excerpts and a handbook. Need to know basis maybe? I dunno. And the yenta housewives? Well, ask one about it and I bet you she'll refer you off to her superior, or have to get back to you on it. They cant do for you what they dont know about.

How bout this, Mr. Doubtful (lol). I don't have all the answers, but am certainly not making this stuff up. How about if you (or others) bug the ear of your agents or lawyers and inquire about getting your alloidial title for your home, just to see what they say? What is it, how much, and where? Possibly the county recorders office?

In fact, if I'm wrong then tell me what an 'Alloidial Title' is? I didn't make up the term. It has to mean something, so what is it?

Sorry if I'm a poor unedumacated white man without all the answers. I don't even have the 300 smackers to order the book, this is the slow time of the year for me until after tax time. I could point you towards it though! There's more to this stuff than meets the eye though and me not having all the answers doesn't mean that its all a fairy tale.

Standing by... :)
 
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