interpreting Box O' Truth: the "best" home-defense round

Don, it depends on where you live. I will give you a real example from here that is fairly recent. A property dispute over some cattle led to the assailants pinning down a car at just over 100 yards with rifle fire. They kept shooting until they thought they had hit everyone (they did not hit anyone as it turns out). The assailants did not then advance but high tailed it out of there thankfully. The victims were not armed, wished they were, and are now. The only thing that saved those folks was the failure of the assailants to hit them and the failure to follow the attack through. I would think shooting back would be justified as legitimate self defense. Granted this is not a real common scenario but don't think is does not happen, it does.

I will not mention the county, but due to the very poor LE work, and I am being charitable here, and almost non existent prosecution in that county, there were some minor charges filed and then nolled. Attempted murder, and Armed Criminal Action come to mind as perhaps appropriate, but who am I to say.
 
Jhenry, I remember that case. I may be confusing it with another, I'm remembering a few details differently. Bottom line in that case is that you had a bunch of hillbilly dirtbags that hated and harrassed their neighbors, and finally went the last full measure of intimidation and opened fire on them. I don't remember it being so much a failure of LE officials, so much as a failure of law. They lived in an unzoned area, they never openly broke any laws or engaged in prosecutable behavior, so LE couldn't really do anything about it.

Those people didn't belong in polite society.
 
aim straight

From data I've read, almost all shootouts are at 0 to 20 feet (that's feet, not yards) and that police studies show that cops miss 80% of the time...

So, at 10 meters the average home defender will probably miss almost all the time!

My solution is to train at 0-20feet and concentrate on getting the first good hit with buckshot.

Anything you shoot that goes thru a wall or out a door or window is a hazard to the public. There is really nothing you can do to minimize this other than hit the BG soon with something that will stop him.

Pistol caliber carbines, like any gun, are better than nothing. I sold all of mine when I figured out that nothing beats a shotgun a close range and nothing beats a real carbine at medium range. Pistol caliber carbines are a needless compromise.
 
Shooters,

Thank you all for your input. Now that I've read a bit more, I (somewhat) regret opening up this can of worms.


ORIGINAL INTENT

I had thought it would be helpful to:

Minor point of discussion:
1. Distinguish between self-defense rounds vs. self-defense weapons

Major point of discussion:
2. Dissect/debate misses. While the Box O'Truth offered great insights into how misses will effect the kids in the next room, I thought it didn't adequately consider how misses will effect the neighbors down the street at distances of 100 meters or more. Is it better for the Joneses at the end of the block if you're flinging 00 buck or 5.56x45mm? Having seen what an AR can do to steel plates from 500 meters away, I thought the answer was self-evident.


WHAT I'VE LEARNED

I was wrong. This gentlemen does a direct head to head comparison between rifle, pistol and shotgun rounds:
http://230grain.com/showthread.php?65428-Ammunition-Drywall-Penetration-Analysis-Test-(Adpat)

The Box O' Truth himself chimes in here on a thread comparing 5.56x45mm vs. Buckshot:
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=257357

Thus, I must humbly agree with the conventional wisdom of those on TFL. Of the three classic home-defense rounds (9x19mm JHP, 5.56x45mm TAP and 00 buckshot), the errant rifle round that has gone through an intermediate barrier and started fragmenting, tumbling and yawing is least likely to hurt the kids in the next room or the neighbors next door. Even if the Joneses who live at the end of the block start shooting at the bad guys (and they're horrible shots), you're actually safer if they use their AR/EBR and not their trusty Remington/Mossy. That seems crazy to me -- but I can't dispute the research/evidence.

Unless of course, the bad guy is standing in front of a large unopened window with unobstructed line of sight 100 meters down the block to the outdoor hammock in the front yard where you happen to be sleeping, looking like one of these:

marinesqualtarget01resibm3.jpg


and Mr. Jones suddenly has flashbacks to the rifle range at boot camp....
 
Who'd miss like that? The guy freaked out of his mind on adrenalin because that bump in the night turned into a "ooh, there's a guy I don't know in the living room at 3:43 AM". That's who.

Go down to your local USPSA/IDPA/Bowling Pin league and just watch. Low level stress like the gallery watching you will make you miss.
 
The consensus on TFL seems to be that in a home defense setting, a miss with a pistol presents a greater risk to people in the next room/home than a miss with a shotgun or rifle. The errant pistol caliber round stays intact and penetrates more walls, whereas errant buckshot or frangible rifle caliber rounds will slow down/get stopped more readily
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Frangible bullets are available for pistol and rifle. A rifle with a typical hunting round, in larger calibers, has tremendous penetration.
 
For what it's worth I think the best HD weapon, albeit illegal, is a sawed off double barrel with 00 buck. Just about guaranteed to hit what your pointing at.
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Sorry, my man. A sawed off shotgun is still just a cylinder bore. It will produce a pattern at typical home SD distances of a few inches and isn't guaranteed to hit anything unless it's precisely pointed. At short distances, the choke (or lack of) makes little difference.

True, it's shorter bbl. makes it easier to use at close quarters.
 
For what it's worth I think the best HD weapon, albeit illegal, is a sawed off double barrel with 00 buck.
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Since when is a sawed off shotgun illegal? You just have to get the tax stamp. But I agree it would be no more effective than a 20" cylinder bore gun. Just maybe a little easier to swing around without knocking lamps off of tables and such. :)

Many of the guns we commonly talk about here are "illegal" if you don't follow the law when aquiring them.
 
I don't have much to add to this discussion, but will throw my $.02 regarding short barreled shotguns and the need to aim. I always believed point and shoot would be easy until I bought a 12ga pump with an 18" barrel and started to shoot some stuff. At HD distances the pattern is quite small. If you think a solid hit with 00 buckshot (or even #1) is a given, esp in a high stress situation, you might be very surprised at the worst possible time. Maneuvering a shotgun in tight quarters is also not as easy as I thought it would be. I think it is a very formidable defensive weapon, but like everything else it takes time and practice IMHO.
 
anonimoose
. . . . but isn't there a reason why the pistol is considered a short range weapon?
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Defensive handguns are considered short range weapons compared to rifles. Given the stress and time pressure of a defensive shooting most shots miss at under 5 yards in a gunfight.
 
interpreting Box O' Truth: the "best" home-defense round
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Well written & well thought out. I would like to add this:

When concerned about Home Defense you must consider the worst case scenario.

Here is one to think about:

You had dinner with friends or family and a few drinks. You go to bed feeling real relaxed and fall into a deep sleep. At 2:00 AM you wake up to the sound of your back door being kicked in and shattering glass. In that moment you look from your bedroom into the kitchen, 30 feet away, and there stands a 300 lb gorilla with a flashlight shining in your eyes. At that moment in time you will experience one of two emotions, anger or fear. Either of these emotions will be accompanied by a large dose of adrenaline. Your hands will be shaking and your mind will be racing. You reach for you pistol on the nightstand, you fire at the intruder with the flashlight shining in your face. What do you think your chances are of hit him? I say slim to none. Go back to where you reached for your pistol and grab your rifle, don’t matter what kind or caliber, that you had setting by your bed. Are you going to be able to aim and hit the intruder? Probably not.. Remember the emotions & adrenaline. Also keep in mind that all of this is taking place in a matter of seconds.

Solution – 12 gauge pump shotgun (one of the pistol grip short versions) with 0 or 00 buck shoot. 2 or 3 shots from the waist toward the flashlight, you will not miss and you and your family will be safe.
 
I do agree with appyling common sense and reasonable caution when considering the use a of any firearm for any purpose but I would also say that at some point the entire process can become over intellectualized.

If I must use a firearm to defend myself, I will do my best to insure that my actions are reasonably measured and competent. As far as what firearm I would use would greatly depend on where I am in my home. My personal choice for my specific set of circumstances, is a 38 revolver. If I have to use a rifle or shotgun, the same rules apply.
 
Will Lee said:
Solution – 12 gauge pump shotgun (one of the pistol grip short versions) with 0 or 00 buck shoot. 2 or 3 shots from the waist toward the flashlight, you will not miss and you and your family will be safe.
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I'd encourage you to go out to the range and give that solution a try; and even better, compare it to other possible solutions with a shot timer. I think you might find that solution is less than ideal, even in the calm, non-stressed range environment.

My own experience has been that with my open choke 18" 12 gauge, the pattern only opens about 1" for every yard travelled - so at 30', we are talking a 10" pattern - which while nice, is certainly no guarantee you won't miss - and shooting from the waist is certainly a good way to miss, even with a 10" pattern - not to mention that if you are trying to fire 2 or 3 shots in rapid succession, not having the gun up on your shoulder is really going to slow down your recovery between shots.
 
Go shoot that pistol gripped 12 gauge in a 2 or 3 gun match and tell me all about how you just couldn't miss.

In the daylight.
 
Here is one to think about:

You had dinner with friends or family and a few drinks. You go to bed feeling real relaxed and fall into a deep sleep. At 2:00 AM you wake up to the sound of your back door being kicked in and shattering glass. In that moment you look from your bedroom into the kitchen, 30 feet away, and there stands a 300 lb gorilla with a flashlight shining in your eyes. At that moment in time you will experience one of two emotions, anger or fear. Either of these emotions will be accompanied by a large dose of adrenaline. Your hands will be shaking and your mind will be racing. You reach for you pistol on the nightstand, you fire at the intruder with the flashlight shining in your face. What do you think your chances are of hit him? I say slim to none. Go back to where you reached for your pistol and grab your rifle, don’t matter what kind or caliber, that you had setting by your bed. Are you going to be able to aim and hit the intruder? Probably not.. Remember the emotions & adrenaline. Also keep in mind that all of this is taking place in a matter of seconds.

Solution – 12 gauge pump shotgun (one of the pistol grip short versions) with 0 or 00 buck shoot. 2 or 3 shots from the waist toward the flashlight, you will not miss and you and your family will be safe.
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All due respect, you don't even know what you don't know.
 
If you cant hit something, anything, at a range of 25 feet with a shotgun then I dont know what to say.
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Getting a few pellets of 8 shot in a target and stopping a bad guy are very different things. Shooting buckshot at 25 feet at a moving target that may be armed and dangerous with evil intent, with the adrenalin pumping and lives in the balance is not a sure thing even with practice. I pray I am never in that situation, but I am not naive enough to think it is.
 
Man, I wish I had the luck of you shotguneers. I have to aim my shotgun or I miss.:(

For awhile there I figured a SG is the thing to have for indoor HD. But it seems to me that I keep hearing more and more about home invasions with multiple perps. Now if I had multiple perps in the house, would I want a 12 ga SG?

No I wouldn't, I would want something faster firing and hi capacity, and perhaps the perps are armored even? Suddenly the AR15 stands out. Now testing has concluded that the fragmenting rounds are (so called) safer for residential neighborhoods etc...does this make the AR's the wise mans choice for HD?

I conclude that shotguns are superfluous, anything that needs done can be done with a pistol or rifle. (ducking):D
 
At my present home, the maximum distance is about 21 feet, and so I practice at 7 yards. At my new home the maximum distance is more like 60-70 feet. It was enough for me to get a good shotgun and practice, practice, practice. Between it, the pistol, and the AR, I haven't really decided what I'll be using when I move, but I have all bases covered.
 
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