Interesting notion from another thread, which bears some examination
- Thread starter zombietactics
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I think that a good deal of the research into the wounding effects of handgun bullets has been taken out of context for such a long time that many people have lost the initial point. What one must first understand is that all firearms, be they handgun, rifle, or shotgun, cause trauma to living things in one of two ways: either they directly crush/tear tissue (permanent crush cavity) or transfer their energy to such a degree that it stretches the tissue beyond its elastic limit (temporary cavitation). The notion that there is some magic velocity at which one crosses the threshold from pistol to rifle performance is erroneous because for just about every figure I've seen thrown around as the "magic number" I can point to a very effective rifle cartridge with lower velocity or a pistol cartridge with higher velocity that still behaves like a pistol.
The reason, instead, that rifle cartridges are typically more effective is that they generally produce more energy, be it with higher velocity or heavier bullets, which in turn makes them more likely to produce temporary cavitation beyond the elastic limits of most tissue. Also, rifle bullets, due to their typically higher velocity and the difference in the feeding mechanisms of rifles as opposed to handguns, can often be constructed to expand and/or fragment in ways that cannot be duplicated with most handgun bullets.
For example, even a FMJ rifle bullet like that of a "battle rifle" class cartridge like .30-06, 7.62x51, .303 British, 7.62x54R, or 7.92x57 Mauser can be made to destabilize and create a very large temporary cavity while still penetrating very deeply. FMJ handgun bullets, on the other hand, typically just drill right through retaining most of their energy and creating a rather modest amount of temporary cavitation.
Likewise, by using a JHP or JSP bullet or even by just driving the bullet at higher velocity, rifle bullets can be made to fragment at a sufficient depth to cause devastating effects on living things. By comparison, while handgun bullets can be made to fragment, they typically require bullets so light and/or fragile that their penetration is reduced to unacceptable levels. This is why, in most cases, fragmentation is considered undesirable in handgun bullets.
Now, most agree that the best type of bullet for most handgun cartridges is a hollowpoint of one sort or another. These reduce (though not eliminate) the risk of overpenetration to bystanders, increase the frontal area of the bullet thus increasing permanent crush cavity, and increase the temporary cavitation to the degree that it might increase terminal effect in some of the more inelastic tissues of the body. The problem is that most handgun cartridges simply cannot produce the violent expansion/fragmentation of rifle cartridges without sacrificing adequate penetration.
That is not to say, however, that there are no handgun cartridges that can produce rifle-like terminal effect, there certainly are. The reason, however, that such cartridges aren't more commonly used is that they produce recoil beyond what LE and military organizations (the main drivers behind research into handgun effectiveness) feel is acceptable and/or they aren't commonly found in the type of handgun that such users want. I refer to these cartridges as "magnum-class" and the least powerful common cartridges that fit this category are .357 Magnum and 10mm Auto. These rounds have enough raw power to drive a bullet heavy enough to penetrate adequately fast enough to fragment moderately (usually core-jacket separation). Of course, going up to cartridges like .41 Magnum and .44 Magnum can also give similar results with the right bullet, but the recoil will be increased as well.
Of course, most LE and military organizations have little or no interest in these cartridges. The FBI tests are a prime example of this: the FBI had no interest whatsoever in revolvers as they'd already decided that they needed/wanted a semi-automatic handgun and the 10mm was deemed to have excessive recoil unless it was downloaded to the point that it behaved no differently than any other common "service-class" handgun cartridge.
The reason, instead, that rifle cartridges are typically more effective is that they generally produce more energy, be it with higher velocity or heavier bullets, which in turn makes them more likely to produce temporary cavitation beyond the elastic limits of most tissue. Also, rifle bullets, due to their typically higher velocity and the difference in the feeding mechanisms of rifles as opposed to handguns, can often be constructed to expand and/or fragment in ways that cannot be duplicated with most handgun bullets.
For example, even a FMJ rifle bullet like that of a "battle rifle" class cartridge like .30-06, 7.62x51, .303 British, 7.62x54R, or 7.92x57 Mauser can be made to destabilize and create a very large temporary cavity while still penetrating very deeply. FMJ handgun bullets, on the other hand, typically just drill right through retaining most of their energy and creating a rather modest amount of temporary cavitation.
Likewise, by using a JHP or JSP bullet or even by just driving the bullet at higher velocity, rifle bullets can be made to fragment at a sufficient depth to cause devastating effects on living things. By comparison, while handgun bullets can be made to fragment, they typically require bullets so light and/or fragile that their penetration is reduced to unacceptable levels. This is why, in most cases, fragmentation is considered undesirable in handgun bullets.
Now, most agree that the best type of bullet for most handgun cartridges is a hollowpoint of one sort or another. These reduce (though not eliminate) the risk of overpenetration to bystanders, increase the frontal area of the bullet thus increasing permanent crush cavity, and increase the temporary cavitation to the degree that it might increase terminal effect in some of the more inelastic tissues of the body. The problem is that most handgun cartridges simply cannot produce the violent expansion/fragmentation of rifle cartridges without sacrificing adequate penetration.
That is not to say, however, that there are no handgun cartridges that can produce rifle-like terminal effect, there certainly are. The reason, however, that such cartridges aren't more commonly used is that they produce recoil beyond what LE and military organizations (the main drivers behind research into handgun effectiveness) feel is acceptable and/or they aren't commonly found in the type of handgun that such users want. I refer to these cartridges as "magnum-class" and the least powerful common cartridges that fit this category are .357 Magnum and 10mm Auto. These rounds have enough raw power to drive a bullet heavy enough to penetrate adequately fast enough to fragment moderately (usually core-jacket separation). Of course, going up to cartridges like .41 Magnum and .44 Magnum can also give similar results with the right bullet, but the recoil will be increased as well.
Of course, most LE and military organizations have little or no interest in these cartridges. The FBI tests are a prime example of this: the FBI had no interest whatsoever in revolvers as they'd already decided that they needed/wanted a semi-automatic handgun and the 10mm was deemed to have excessive recoil unless it was downloaded to the point that it behaved no differently than any other common "service-class" handgun cartridge.
I do feel that energy does play a role up to a point, there has to be some energy there to cause something to happen. I can throw a 230gr JHP (124gr, 180gr, ect) bullet as hard as I can but it's just going to bounce off of someone. At the same time, some bullet designs require more energy (read velocity) to work as intended, others do well at slower velocities.
I know people have hit on this here and there, but you have a constant (for the most part) which is the bullet itself then you have the constantly diminishing variable of velocity. Without velocity the bullet won't do anything, but without a bullet what is velocity going to do? Energy comes from both velocity and bullet weight, heavier bullets don't need as much velocity as compared to lighter bullets to make the same amount of energy, what we term as ft-lbs of energy.
Bullets kill (or stop the threat) by cutting holes in vital organs via penetration, it's that simple. Sure faster velocity can do a little bit more damage but depending on the design of the bullet might come at a loss of penetration, so you can push certain bullets too fast and get less penetration, an aspect I think is vital for handguns especially. I wouldn't totally rely on damage that may or may not be caused by some "shock wave" of "energy", simply rely on what has been severed via actual contact with the bullet.
I've seen deer shot with rifles producing a LOT of "energy" yet run off as if spooked (mortally wounded of course, but not stopped), yet I've seen them shot with service caliber handguns (boiler room shot) and drop on the spot. Same goes for humans as well, people have taken up closes blasts with a shotgun and kept going, direct rifle hits and on they go, so it's not real easy to explain why these things happen, even with seemingly proper shot placement. For me the most important factors are shot placement and sufficient penetration followed by expansion (larger/heavier bullets do this easier as more of their energy is derived from bullet wt instead of lighter bullets that require more velocity), energy levels beyond that are essentially meaningless.
I know people have hit on this here and there, but you have a constant (for the most part) which is the bullet itself then you have the constantly diminishing variable of velocity. Without velocity the bullet won't do anything, but without a bullet what is velocity going to do? Energy comes from both velocity and bullet weight, heavier bullets don't need as much velocity as compared to lighter bullets to make the same amount of energy, what we term as ft-lbs of energy.
Bullets kill (or stop the threat) by cutting holes in vital organs via penetration, it's that simple. Sure faster velocity can do a little bit more damage but depending on the design of the bullet might come at a loss of penetration, so you can push certain bullets too fast and get less penetration, an aspect I think is vital for handguns especially. I wouldn't totally rely on damage that may or may not be caused by some "shock wave" of "energy", simply rely on what has been severed via actual contact with the bullet.
I've seen deer shot with rifles producing a LOT of "energy" yet run off as if spooked (mortally wounded of course, but not stopped), yet I've seen them shot with service caliber handguns (boiler room shot) and drop on the spot. Same goes for humans as well, people have taken up closes blasts with a shotgun and kept going, direct rifle hits and on they go, so it's not real easy to explain why these things happen, even with seemingly proper shot placement. For me the most important factors are shot placement and sufficient penetration followed by expansion (larger/heavier bullets do this easier as more of their energy is derived from bullet wt instead of lighter bullets that require more velocity), energy levels beyond that are essentially meaningless.
It's important to understand that kinetic energy is a scientifically verifiable quantity shown repeatedly via experiment to be an accurate measure of the POTENTIAL of a moving object to do work. As such, it is futile and also very "wrong-headed" to find fault or express displeasure with the mathematical calculation which has been shown to accurately quantify the kinetic energy of a moving object.
It is a real quantity, important in the real world, and the mathematical calculation accurately represents that real quantity.
Where misunderstanding can arise is when applying kinetic energy to the study of real-world, terminal effect of bullets. We need to remember that it was not INVENTED or DERIVED to be an accurate, end-all, be-all measure of the stopping power or killing power of a bullet. It was DISCOVERED to be an accurate measure of the potential of a moving object to do work. A little thought demonstrates that terminal effect and the potential of a projectile to do work are related, but a little more thought will demonstrate just as conclusively that the two things are related but not identical.
It is true that understanding the physical science behind kinetic energy can provide some important insights into the study of terminal ballistics, but assuming it can tell the whole story is going to result in frustration and inaccuracy. It's one of the very basic building blocks that can help lead to a better understanding of the topic, but it is by no means the whole story.
zombietactics
New member
Hits the X ring.JohnKSa said:
Hits it again.JohnKSa said:
3 hits, one hole.JohnKSa said:
Venom; "I'll take over penetration over just an entry wound anyday."
Let's put this into real life situations.
Short version: Wife and I assisted 2 LEO's in an arrest in a real bad part of town. Took 30 minutes for backup. For thiry tense minutes, we were in our truck 'blocking' over 150 irate 'natives' of that hood from 2 LEO's and 2 guys in handcuffs.
All of a sudden, wife shouts "He's got a gun!" and points at a guy 10' away hiding a pistol in his jacket and starting to extend it in a position to shoot a cop in the back. I drew and hollered to drop it and had the drop on him, with at least 50 people directly behind him. He froze and as the LEO's turned to look and saw it happening, he took off.
Even with Silvertips, I had to give him that second to rethink. I had him, but I let that pregnant second sit there beofre shooting because of the backstop. I was ready to shoot, but if I'd had something with more penetration, I probably would have hesitated if he had ignored me.
Even the LEO's held fire due to the crowd, but just suppose we had shot with over penetrating rounds... There would have been serious collateral damage.
Make no mistake, I would have shot with what I had, but I hate to put that much trust into the round, and maybe even subsequent shots. No people behind him, I probably would have just taken the shot.
Let's put this into real life situations.
Short version: Wife and I assisted 2 LEO's in an arrest in a real bad part of town. Took 30 minutes for backup. For thiry tense minutes, we were in our truck 'blocking' over 150 irate 'natives' of that hood from 2 LEO's and 2 guys in handcuffs.
All of a sudden, wife shouts "He's got a gun!" and points at a guy 10' away hiding a pistol in his jacket and starting to extend it in a position to shoot a cop in the back. I drew and hollered to drop it and had the drop on him, with at least 50 people directly behind him. He froze and as the LEO's turned to look and saw it happening, he took off.
Even with Silvertips, I had to give him that second to rethink. I had him, but I let that pregnant second sit there beofre shooting because of the backstop. I was ready to shoot, but if I'd had something with more penetration, I probably would have hesitated if he had ignored me.
Even the LEO's held fire due to the crowd, but just suppose we had shot with over penetrating rounds... There would have been serious collateral damage.
Make no mistake, I would have shot with what I had, but I hate to put that much trust into the round, and maybe even subsequent shots. No people behind him, I probably would have just taken the shot.
There is no magic bullet.
There is no single caliber, bullet or load that will be the best possible under all situations.
Even loads that usually don't penetrate and exit can do so under the right conditions. It isn't until you get up to varmint rifle speeds and bullet construction that you can be nearly completely assured of the bullet not exiting essentially intact.
Any time there are people behind your target there is a risk. What matters is your assessment of the risk to them, vs the risk to you.
Why is it so many seem obsessed with the risk of overpenetration and never seem to mention the risk of a miss, which, to me, seems to happen more often?
There is no single caliber, bullet or load that will be the best possible under all situations.
Even loads that usually don't penetrate and exit can do so under the right conditions. It isn't until you get up to varmint rifle speeds and bullet construction that you can be nearly completely assured of the bullet not exiting essentially intact.
Any time there are people behind your target there is a risk. What matters is your assessment of the risk to them, vs the risk to you.
Why is it so many seem obsessed with the risk of overpenetration and never seem to mention the risk of a miss, which, to me, seems to happen more often?
Shock & awe....
I think a handgun round with a higher KE level is ideal because the bullet or bullet fragments/sections will "hit" or "strike" human flesh hard.
The possible shock(for lack of a better term) or trauma that a hit would cause may, may cause a violent subject to stop(end any violent actions).
This is not a guarantee with any handgun round(caliber) nor any SMG or rifle.
Author & firearm tactics trainer; Massad Ayoob, www.MassadAyoobgroup.com , wrote a recent gun press article about a female LE officer who shot a violent felon. The wounded bad guy, lunged at the police officer, killed her, then died from his gunshot wounds.
As noted, there are no magic bullets. The new RIP 9x19mm loads; www.G2rip.com , is a good example. It's impressive but actual shootings will need to show how these 9mm rounds perform.
I think a handgun round with a higher KE level is ideal because the bullet or bullet fragments/sections will "hit" or "strike" human flesh hard.
The possible shock(for lack of a better term) or trauma that a hit would cause may, may cause a violent subject to stop(end any violent actions).
This is not a guarantee with any handgun round(caliber) nor any SMG or rifle.
Author & firearm tactics trainer; Massad Ayoob, www.MassadAyoobgroup.com , wrote a recent gun press article about a female LE officer who shot a violent felon. The wounded bad guy, lunged at the police officer, killed her, then died from his gunshot wounds.
As noted, there are no magic bullets. The new RIP 9x19mm loads; www.G2rip.com , is a good example. It's impressive but actual shootings will need to show how these 9mm rounds perform.
Tinner666
Over penetration happens. ill take a nice HP that does its job and exits out the back of your target over one that doesn't anyday. Sometimes it comes down to the hard choice. If two jhp bullets create an equal wound channel except one is 12" or one that goes all the way through the target ill take that one.
No offense but I am not a law officer (don't know if you are) and personally would not involved my wife nor myself with a 2 officer arrest ever thats not the reason I carry let LEOs handle that business. If I draw my weapon it will be to defend my or my familys lives. I'll take the most effective round.
Over penetration happens. ill take a nice HP that does its job and exits out the back of your target over one that doesn't anyday. Sometimes it comes down to the hard choice. If two jhp bullets create an equal wound channel except one is 12" or one that goes all the way through the target ill take that one.
No offense but I am not a law officer (don't know if you are) and personally would not involved my wife nor myself with a 2 officer arrest ever thats not the reason I carry let LEOs handle that business. If I draw my weapon it will be to defend my or my familys lives. I'll take the most effective round.
Most incidents I've been involved in were in the city. In the incident cited, there were only the six of us. We said we've stay and provide BU if something went wrong. LEO's are not invincible. It drew an unruly crowd. At the beginning, 'it seemed like a good idea at the time', then it went to 'in for a penny, in for the dollar'.
Things just happen, i guess.
See this one? Busy street, heavy traffic, pedestrians, etc. It went well, but over penetration can be bad, so I'm stuck with hard choices.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=525045
We're never able to pick and choose bad things happen.
BTW, I wasn't really directing anything at you. You weren't the only one, I just used your quote.
Things just happen, i guess.
See this one? Busy street, heavy traffic, pedestrians, etc. It went well, but over penetration can be bad, so I'm stuck with hard choices.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=525045
We're never able to pick and choose bad things happen.
BTW, I wasn't really directing anything at you. You weren't the only one, I just used your quote.
No LEO. Some background. I've always been proactive reporting B&E's, robberies, drug dealings, etc.
I've been in Army, done security work and have a business in the 'little Beirut' part of Richmond for over 25 years. I feel we need to assist the LEO's as much as possible within reason and we've helped often. I've had LEO's bang on my house in the middle of the night asking for BU.
One time, we came up on a B&E and it took 10 minutes for an LEO to arrive. I told dispatch we'd stay a block away where we had a good view to take pix. LEO arrived and radio said BU was 20 minutes away. I pulled up and offered to assist, at least from the doorway. He told dispatch he was going in and I was his BU. I got nervous when 5-6 squads pulled up around me, since I was behind him and in SUL. I relaxed my position and at least two said thans as they passed me. Perps made it out the back.
I've been in similar situations a few times a year since opening my business there.
I've been in Army, done security work and have a business in the 'little Beirut' part of Richmond for over 25 years. I feel we need to assist the LEO's as much as possible within reason and we've helped often. I've had LEO's bang on my house in the middle of the night asking for BU.
One time, we came up on a B&E and it took 10 minutes for an LEO to arrive. I told dispatch we'd stay a block away where we had a good view to take pix. LEO arrived and radio said BU was 20 minutes away. I pulled up and offered to assist, at least from the doorway. He told dispatch he was going in and I was his BU. I got nervous when 5-6 squads pulled up around me, since I was behind him and in SUL. I relaxed my position and at least two said thans as they passed me. Perps made it out the back.
I've been in similar situations a few times a year since opening my business there.
The thing about overpenetration is that its extremely difficult, if not impossible, to completely eliminate as a possibility through caliber/bullet selection. Even if one picks a cartridge/bullet combination which routinely delivers the relatively shallow penetration depth of only 8-10", that could still be a through-and-through shot if the person on the receiving end is hit in the periphery or is just of very slight build.
Also, most of the less penetrative cartridge/bullet combinations use rather light-for-caliber bullets which are often more easily deflected when they encounter hard objects like auto glass or bone. With a very light bullet, if overpenetration does occur there is a higher likelihood that the bullet's trajectory will change and it won't overpentrate in a straight line. Medium-to-heavy for caliber bullets at least usually penetrate in a straight line and thus if/when they overpenetrate, while still undesirable, it will at least be somewhat more predictable.
Personally, I think that overpenetration is an issue better addressed by tactics than ammunition. If your bullet is heavy enough to penetrate in a straight line, something as simple as taking a step to the side or taking a knee can often change the trajectory of the bullet enough to mitigate the risk to bystanders. Of course, the most important thing is to be conscious of the risk to bystanders and thus, as Tinner666 did, very carefully consider whether or not you absolutely have to shoot at all.
Also, most of the less penetrative cartridge/bullet combinations use rather light-for-caliber bullets which are often more easily deflected when they encounter hard objects like auto glass or bone. With a very light bullet, if overpenetration does occur there is a higher likelihood that the bullet's trajectory will change and it won't overpentrate in a straight line. Medium-to-heavy for caliber bullets at least usually penetrate in a straight line and thus if/when they overpenetrate, while still undesirable, it will at least be somewhat more predictable.
Personally, I think that overpenetration is an issue better addressed by tactics than ammunition. If your bullet is heavy enough to penetrate in a straight line, something as simple as taking a step to the side or taking a knee can often change the trajectory of the bullet enough to mitigate the risk to bystanders. Of course, the most important thing is to be conscious of the risk to bystanders and thus, as Tinner666 did, very carefully consider whether or not you absolutely have to shoot at all.
cougar gt-e
New member
A lot of this discussion reminds me of the story from statistics training about the man on his hands and knees under a street light at night. A passerby asks what he's doing, and is told he lost his keys. So he helps for a bit, finds nothing and asks where he was when he lost them. The guy answers, over there, across the street, in the alley by the dumpster. Outraged, the passerby asks why the heck he's looking across the street? The guy answers, " because it's clean, dry and has good light over here".
We tend to focus on analyzing things based on easy data (like kinetic energy, caliber, bullet weight) when finding the "true" answer involves lots more hard, dirty, messy work. Yes, those things are important and some correlations can be made...but with often unpredictable results as evidenced by stories of minor wounds instantly stopping one person where a major wound fails. Those unpredictable results are probably due to factors unaccounted for, some minor and obscure, others major and obvious.
I sure don't know the aswers, heck I don't even know the most of the questions! And like most, I find myself under the clean, dry, bright street light ...
Evidence shows that a quality jhp round in caliber 9mm on up will perform well enough in nearly all cases when placed accurately. But, wider, heavier, faster is also typically better ... but not always. I use .40 over 9mm because it's better ...at least it looks better under this street light ...
We tend to focus on analyzing things based on easy data (like kinetic energy, caliber, bullet weight) when finding the "true" answer involves lots more hard, dirty, messy work. Yes, those things are important and some correlations can be made...but with often unpredictable results as evidenced by stories of minor wounds instantly stopping one person where a major wound fails. Those unpredictable results are probably due to factors unaccounted for, some minor and obscure, others major and obvious.
I sure don't know the aswers, heck I don't even know the most of the questions! And like most, I find myself under the clean, dry, bright street light ...
Evidence shows that a quality jhp round in caliber 9mm on up will perform well enough in nearly all cases when placed accurately. But, wider, heavier, faster is also typically better ... but not always. I use .40 over 9mm because it's better ...at least it looks better under this street light ...
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