Interesting notion from another thread, which bears some examination

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zombietactics

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The idea that 500 ftlbs of kinetic energy doesn't equate much more killing power than a smaller caliber with less kinetic energy is absurd. If you cant shoot the 40 as good as the 9mm, then thats a valid argument but to make a blanket statement on the actual rounds killing potential is ridiculous.

The assumption of this statement is that ALL energy necessarily goes into "killing power", which is an interesting way to put it.

Energy is simply the means to do work of some kind. Handgun bullets only have a few pieces of work they physically can do ... travel, penetrate sufficiently, and expand. Once they have done those three things, they have nothing left to do. All remaining energy can only result in travelling further than is necessary, penetrating more that is necessary, or expanding more (or sooner) in some designs than they would otherwise.

If you travel more than is necessary and penetrate more than is necessary ... that's called overpenetration. You don't get extra "killing power" points for flying out the back end of the bad guy and bouncing off of a wall.

If you get expansion sooner, or more complete expansion, that's a good thing (assuming it does not cost you sufficient penetration, which is far more important). However, it is factually the case that there is no way to do that with current, modern bullet designs beyond that achieved with common duty-rated rounds which pass IWBA/FBI protocol tests.

If you check the specs of the better performing duty rounds, you'll note that they have all been designed to meet those FBI/IWBA standards. They do so with varying degrees of energy, because energy by itself is an almost meaningless metric of anything important.
 
ou don't get extra "killing power" points for flying out the back end of the bad guy and bouncing off of a wall.

Yeah, ya do. Blood is running out twice as fast. Maybe no more "stopping power", but definitely more killing power.
We are often told that handguns don't have enough "power" to have "stopping power", so I'll take all the "overpenetration" I can get.
 
It's doesn't really work that way. The blood which proceeds from the entry/exit wounds is insignificant compared to the volume bleeding into interior cavities.

It does happen on occasion, but you almost never get the giant pool of blood like you see on TV, unless it's an arterial hit to an extremity (femoral & brachial arteries, for instance). In these cases, you're likely to get overpenetration anyway, regardless of the round used, so that super-dooper-extra overpenetration is wasted.

Handgun wounds (all common calibers) are often somewhat "self-sealing", which is why you get symptoms like sucking chest wounds and tension pneumo-thorax.

Even if you get some extra nth% of something from overpenetration (a notion unsupported by any forensic evidence) any extra energy past that point is still wasted.

You need more energy to move a larger mass, but wounds are not created by mass or energy, but rather by holes. Fast and relatively light rounds don't require as much energy to poke holes as slower, heavier rounds. In the end they poke almost exactly the same sized holes.
 
I'm in the bigger is better camp, generally, but there is evidence that kinetic energy of a bullet does play some part in tissue damage. Much like the shock wave of a jet causes turbulence, the shock wave of a high speed bullet can cause "turbulence" in tissue. This can damage soft tissue, causing quicker blood loss, and contribute to "stopping power." You can see this in wound tracks in animals and humans and in ballistic gelatin. The bullet needs to be traveling at a high velocity and tissue damage caused by this is somewhat unpredictable.

Don't get this confused with hydrostatic shock which is the ability to cause remote damage. This is more controversial and, IMO, is a factor only at rifle-type velocities.

My favorite caliber for defense is .45 acp in a 230 gr. quality hollow point at standard pressure.
 
I'm in the bigger is better camp, generally, but there is evidence that kinetic energy of a bullet does play some part in tissue damage. Much like the shock wave of a jet causes turbulence, the shock wave of a high speed bullet can cause "turbulence" in tissue.

There are no such effects with handgun bullets. Secondary cavitation wounding effects occur only with high velocity rounds. You need to get up to the 2700fps range in order to get this happening. The size/weight of the round has very little to do with it. That's why a 5.56 rifle round (about the same projectile size/weight as 22LR) can completely tear/rip chunks of flesh from bone and shatter large bones into tiny pieces.

Handgun rounds don't do that. At all. Seriously. There are no real "shockwave" or secondary wounding effects from common handgun rounds.

There ain't nothing wrong with a good .45ACP HP round, BTW. ;)
 
Get a good revolver in 44 mag and get deer. Watch how the deer reacts to hits and do an autopsy so you see the damage and how far the bullet went.
You'll learn much more than reading forums .I read and hunted so I know a few things !:) Also read Elmer Keith ,he can teach you a few things " Sixguns".

Tunnel Rat ,Read papers by Dr Vincent Dimaio an army doc who really started the scientific study of wonds !
 
while i see your theory and understand where you are coming from ill disagree as well.

I'll take over penetration over just an entry wound anyday.

Having the round exit the body proves many things. First its reached the needed depth. It hasn't been stopped by an object such as armor, bone, or clothing. Also having reached the needed depth it then proceeded to make even more damage on its way out. Damage is damage, there is no way less damaged tissue can be better.

JHP rounds are designed to cut and tear more tissue with their 'petals' then a standard FMJ round if they cut and tear all the way through that is that much more damage done to the target. Since they do not rely on high velocity to create cavities they can only cut channels if it stops halfway, 3/4, 7/8, that is potential damage wasted. Since they can only expand so far the only way to cause more damage is to make the wound channel deeper thus getting the maximum damage done.


Also if rounds are exiting the body it means they are passing the targets spinal column which is a great CNS hit if one round connects passing through.
 
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The size/weight of the round has very little to do with it. That's why a 5.56 rifle round (about the same projectile size/weight as 22LR) can completely tear/rip chunks of flesh from bone and shatter large bones into tiny pieces

The size and weight have a lot to do with it actually. So does the shape of the projectile.

First things first, momentum, which is affected by size and weight, will determine the depth of penetration. The more momentum an object has, the greater its resistance to deflection and decreasing acceleration. Both of which affect the size wound channel.
Next, a 5.56 round may have a similar diameter to a 22lr but that's where the similarities end. Their shape is different and the 5.56 round is heavier than the 22. Sometimes double the weight. Also, the 5.56 round has a tendency to yaw when it hits flesh.

Now, if you turn (yaw) a bullet sideways you have increased the frontal area, called meplat.
The wound channel is a function of the meplat.

So what does all this mean? Large bullets with a lot of momentum will have a greater lethal effect than those smaller, easier to stop bullets
 
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Are you a surgeon or something? I only ask because you seem to know what you're talking about.
No, but I've interviewed quite a few trauma surgeons, coroners and forensic medical examiners regarding this subject. It took me a bit to grasp the material, as I was laboring under most of the myths which are still too accepted in the firearms community.
 
while i see your theory and understand where you are coming from ill disagree as well.
Well, to be fair, it's not "my theory", but rather the almost universal opinion of medical professionals and terminal ballistics experts. I have no special claims in this regard aside from having a background in scientific metrology, which at best makes it a little bit easier for me to makes sense of technical jargon. :o

So, in a sense you aren't arguing with me. I'm just another doofus who just happens to research this stuff more than most. I don't have any ego investment.

Having the round exit the body proves many things. First its reached the needed depth. It hasn't been stopped by an object such as armor, bone, or clothing. Also having reached the needed depth it then proceeded to make even more damage on its way out. Damage is damage, there is no way less damaged tissue can be better.
Well, whatever it proves, it won't be provable until well after the fact. There are rounds which will almost certainly achieve the necessary level of penetration and - hopefully - expansion.

Anything meeting the FBI/IWBA standard has no trouble penetrating 2 layers of 20-gauge hot-rolled steel (or 3/4-inch plywood, auto glass, etc.) and still penetrating to 12-inches. Bone isn't going to be a problem, nor clothing ... kind of the point of the test. 12 inches is used as the minimum penetration standard, BTW, as its' almost certainly "enough". Most experts will tell you that 8 inches is all you'll ever need, and that 12 inches is kind of a "just to be conservative" standard.

If you are concerned about body armor, you definitely don't want .45ACP, or anything travelling slow, with a wide facing contact surface. Every* .45ACP round on the market is stopped by level IA or IIA soft armor, for instance. You have to go up to IIIA in order to reliably stop all of the various 9mm rounds out there.

Most of the path of a handgun-bullet wound channel is unimportant. It's a case of carving through a lot of bone, fat, muscle, etc., hoping to hit something interesting like a major organ or big blood vessel. That's where the good stuff happens. Penetrating the heart fully (example) is a great thing, but you don't get anything more for your dollar by penetrating the mostly unimportant stuff behind it.
 
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There are no such effects with handgun bullets. Secondary cavitation wounding effects occur only with high velocity rounds.
ZT- First, you misread what I said. Second, you are wrong when you say there are "no such effects with handgun bullets."

First, I took pains to twice note I was referring to high velocity bullets (I was speaking of magnum level velocities of 1,500 fps or so):
Much like the shock wave of a jet causes turbulence, the shock wave of a high speed bullet can cause "turbulence" in tissue. . . . The bullet needs to be traveling at a high velocity and tissue damage caused by this is somewhat unpredictable.
You have stated that there is flat out, no such thing at handgun velocities while I have stated it is unpredictable. As a corollary, I would propose that it cannot be relied upon when considering what caliber/round to choose.

Dr. J.M. Di Maio, who was a medical examiner, writes:
In the case of handgun bullets, the bullet produces a direct path of destruction with very little lateral extension within the surrounding tissues, i.e., only a small temporary cavity is produced. As a general rule, the temporary cavity plays little or no role in the extent of wounding.
Di Maio, Gunshot Wounds: Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques, Second Ed., Chpt. 3.

Notice he had two qualifiers, temporary cavitation, as a "general rule" had "little" or no role in wounding. Thus, as a general rule, temporary cavitation may cause some damage and, in some cases, cause more extensive damage. I have stated no more than that.

As I said, I am in the "bigger is better" camp so I'm mostly with you. But one thing you need to be careful about is overstating an argument or making it without any qualifications.

I'll also add that with 5.56 mm rounds, especially 55 gr. M193 loads, there are two components that cause the extensive damage you are referring to. One is temporary cavitation but the other is fragmentation. The bullets do need to be going at about 2700 fps or faster. Yaw is an important factor in fragmentation of these rounds; see quoted comments of Gary Roberts in post 2 at http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=397113. Note the unpredictable nature of the fragmentation due to small differences in yaw. I have seen data, which I cannot locate immediately, which indicates particular problems at CQB ranges with lack of proper yaw and fragmentation.
 
The idea that 500 ftlbs of kinetic energy doesn't equate much more killing power than a smaller caliber with less kinetic energy is absurd. If you cant shoot the 40 as good as the 9mm, then thats a valid argument but to make a blanket statement on the actual rounds killing potential is ridiculous.

The assumption of this statement is that ALL energy necessarily goes into "killing power", which is an interesting way to put it.
There is no doubt that higher energies equate to more damage and yes every bit of it does. But how it does and how effective it is depends on a few factors. Plus how it compares to other pistol rounds.

To tell you the truth this is a never ending venture, you can form an opinion and even bring facts but proving something to someone who sees things differently is just not something that is done with any measurable percentage worth mentioning. Also for all that is the opposing view gains as many.

Here are some of the problems I see that are in the way of getting a clearer picture:
1)Proper design has not come full circle in HP ammo yet. Most won't make it through bone without a clogged tip and failing to expand and most center mass shots hit bone.

2) Gelatin test are not reflective of center mass shots where everyone is aiming due to reason #1 and are limited as to what they can provide as to the damage that can be expected from a center mass shot. I have seen the video test with bone simulant. Don't know how good it really relates to real bone because all I have seen were real thin, thinner than a rib or breastplate. If the thickness of the plate is the same scaling as bone it is too thin. Some ribs have been used here and there, but none with any real discernible and extractable data.

3) Reports that are released on the mystical "stopping power" are defunct. Data is not properly extracted and calibrated in a manner that reflects center mass only shot. Most of this data come from reports of shootings. Not doctors and coroners data based off of the center mass.

4) Coroners data related to center mass shootings and survival rates/incapacitation are few and far between. What does exist is often dismissed , likely because there is not enough samples , maybe some bias towards it, who knows. But more would be helpful. Spinal wounds vs. bullets that failed to make it to the spinal cord due to lack of penetration might be worth noting. Head wounds from the main calibers all have enough devastating effect to call them equally effective for the most part.

5) Most HP rounds are designed to work in the dreaded gelatin as if a clean human tissue shot is normal or productive. Then sold to the market with video and photos of the great expansion to get the imaginary juices flowing, oh yes that is marketing. IOW Bullet design is behind the curve.

6) The self belief system in how things work that has been influenced by different sources some more or less relevant to real life and made even bigger at times by the imagination that may have been influenced by the aforementioned factors. The results can be anything from honest belief to a biased view. Nothing good comes of that with the exception of the occasional open minded debate, even then little is accomplished because more is needed.

7) Lack of the number detailed experiences from doctors and coroners on handgun wounds by caliber. I don't ask a NASCAR driver to diagnosed an engine failure, I ask the engine designers and mechanics. Too much driver input is already in the mix and their information is best for letting someone know how the whole car is working.

I have tested the older HP's designs in various calibers back in the 80's. I got results on flesh. Bone was something I saw as a variant that would not produce the same results every time because of the aforementioned expansion problems. I had no video camera and have no video. Pictures were taken, lost in a move (probably thrown away by the ex...lol). Anyhow I feel some better testing needs to be done, video taped and put out for everyone to draw their own conclusion as to how much difference there is from one caliber to another using the same type ammunition and average gr per caliber (Even max and minimum would be fine). Similar to what www.brassfetcher.com did only with some real bone like pork ribs. They can keep the gelatin if they want or use some pork shoulder. Since it is mentioned I believe that they have done some great testing and produced some nice comparable data but using varying gr bullet weights and brands while leaving some good ones out. Also as already mentioned, most HP's don't work good when encountering bone. When a top brand HP fails to expand 5 out of 5 times it says something about the need to improve design.

Note: I have watched thousands of YouTube videos of caliber test that produce no new results or less than useful results as many here have. There is no real organization to help find any that are of more use than the next. Looking there is less productive than just using brass fetcher IMO. Just save time and energy by doing your own test if you have unanswered questions or use them is my best advice for the moment.

After all that blabbering on I have not produced the (nonexistent) proof of differences in caliber wounds or at least to a degree to claim one more effective and to what degree . If had I done so would it even be accepted might be a good question? Doubtful. Yet we venture on and choose and believe that this caliber of this brand and weight in this gun is more effective than any other. Or we choose to think so and don't dwell on it to an all consuming level, move on and enjoy the variety of life. Then again we might choose them all as equal or best for given situations. At some point I hope we all get happy with what we have, don't let it consume our thoughts to a damaging degree, keep an open mind, and move on to other subjects more worthy of attention like how to get that next gun we been wanting!:D After all this thing comes up like once a month right?!;):p
 
ZT- First, you misread what I said. Second, you are wrong when you say there are "no such effects with handgun bullets."

OK, I should have been clearer. There are no significant effects of this kind with handgun bullets. You definitely get peripheral bruising (about the size of a half-baseball at the contact point is typical), but that's not the kind of thing which adds to a physical incapacitation.

That's an important enough distinction, so I don't think you're being picky. Nonetheless, we aren't doing anything useful with that extra energy here.

Notice he had two qualifiers, temporary cavitation, as a "general rule" had "little" or no role in wounding. Thus, as a general rule, temporary cavitation may cause some damage and, in some cases, cause more extensive damage. I have stated no more than that.

I think you are reading far too much into what DiMaio didn't say. "More extensive damage" is your qualification of his statements, not something he wrote. Secondary wounding effects are seldom even listed as important factors in terminal-ballistic research, and I've yet to see a single case where they were noted as significant effect at all. We can hope for something to happen there, but it doesn't appear that the literature supports anything beyond the barest "maybe" of a chance in this regard. It should also be noted that cavitation effects are far more likely (and more powerful, if that even the appropriate word, lol) with faster moving projectiles.

As I said, I am in the "bigger is better" camp so I'm mostly with you. But one thing you need to be careful about is overstating an argument or making it without any qualifications.

I'm in the "there isn't really any difference, so go train more" camp, lol. ;)

I agree about the nature of over generalizations and qualifications. It's every bit as important to avoid magical thinking based upon one or two factors in a complex problem.
 
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It's all physics anyway. What the bullet hits, at what angle, at what velocity, and at what mass is the target.

Real-life handgun fights are impossible to reproduce in a lab environment. They can't be replicated. This is especially true for civilian defense incidents. The military and police can extrapolate more data due to the necessary reporting required in those fields, especially in LE.

People have dropped dead from .177 and survived multiple hits, including head wounds with .45 ACP and various rifle rounds.

In this community, we over-think, over-analyze and over-debate this subject.
 
The only thing I see from gelatin tests is how they compare to one design over another and to calibers.

I never liken them to real world wounding characteristics.
 
First things first, momentum, which is affected by size and weight, will determine the depth of penetration.

Not alone it won't (and size really has nothing to do with momentum, unless we are talking sizes large enough to create a LOT of friction through air)

Momentum is a function of velocity and mass. Mass has a linear effect as it increases, while velocity has a scalar effect. That's why almost every equation including velocity squares it. So, an increase in velocity is far more important than an increase in mass.

Slow moving, heavy projectiles achieve penetration owning to better conservation of momentum. Faster moving, lighter projectiles have less momentum (and conserve it poorly), but achieve penetration owing to the greater initial velocity.
 
Handgun rounds don't do that. At all. Seriously. There are no real "shockwave" or secondary wounding effects from common handgun rounds.
It is true that the wounding effects from temporary cavitation in handgun woulds are unreliable, but it is not true that there is no effect at all.

Even in non-magnum pistol calibers, temporary cavities of significant size can occur and can cause significant wounding if the tissue surrounding the wound channel is inelastic and highly vascular. There are a number of tissues in the body that fit that description including the kidneys, liver, brain, spleen, etc.

Here's an interesting medical article discussing one type of injury caused by temporary stretch cavities. The article specifically states that the injuries discussed can be caused "by handgun or rifle".

http://www.ajol.info/index.php/sajs/article/viewFile/34334/24724

There are other sources out there that confirm that stretch cavity, even from handgun injuries, can cause wounding under certain circumstances. Many people have heard the common, and true, comment that it doesn't reliably cause wounding and have dropped the word "reliably" from the statement which makes it false.

In addition, if we think about what a stretch cavity is, it is somewhat similar to the type of effect achieved by blunt trauma on soft tissue. It doesn't tear tissue or generally cause any permanent damage (again, unless inelastic soft tissue is involved), but that doesn't mean it can't have any effect on the outcome of a violent encounter. It's not something to bank on, but it shouldn't be completely ignored either.

On the other hand, once you get into true rifle performance, it is possible to get temporary cavities that are large enough to damage even elastic tissues and then temporary cavity becomes a reliable wounding factor.
There is no doubt that higher energies equate to more damage and yes every bit of it does.
More energy equates to more wounding POTENTIAL, however, it is not true that all energy goes into causing damage. The simplest (but not the only) way this can happen is if the bullet exits. If it exits and is still moving then it exits with some remaining energy and that energy is not causing any wounding since the projectile is now no longer interacting with the target medium.

To some extent, all of this is a red herring. The real issue is that for the most part, the handguns in the service pistol class (what I call the calibers you would typically expect to see in a LEO's holster) are more similar in terms of practical terminal performance than they are different. Not that they are all identical--they're not--but they are pretty similar.

That's because the balance of all the factors that make it feasible to both carry and shoot a full-sized handgun competently in a self-defense application conspire to create a level of parity across the class when it comes to actually getting practical results. You can give a little in one area to get a little in another area, but none of that is going to change the overall result significantly in terms of practical application.

It's worth mentioning that trying to boil terminal performance down to a single number might be an attractive goal, but it is one that has steadfastly resisted solution for many decades--and not for lack of trying or due to a dearth of qualified applicants. I do not believe it is productive to attempt to quantify terminal performance with any single number quantity--regardless of whether it be energy, momentum, mass, diameter, penetration or the result of some other more creative calculation.
 
That's because the balance of all the factors that make it feasible to both carry and shoot a full-sized handgun competently in a self-defense application conspire to create a level of parity across the class when it comes to actually getting practical results. You can give a little in one area to get a little in another area, but none of that is going to change the overall result significantly in terms of practical application

That's one of the best explanations I've seen of what I call "the sweet spot" where all of our common duty-class calibers reside.
 
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