Informal 2004 Voter Poll

[erikd65]

If you like the way this sounds, well, then you might be a Libertarian

Being A Libertarian Means:

-Your mother and father are your parents--not the government;
-You are an adult capable of making your own decisions;
-You are the parent of your children, responsible for their safety , well-being and education;
-You accept responsibility for your own safety and well-being;
-You have the freedom to believe (or not) whatever you want with regard to religion, politics, and anything else;
-You oppose government discrimination in all its forms, including "affirmative action";
-You oppose government forcing people into the military, Americorps, or any other government organization;
-You think the best tax reform would be to eliminate taxes;
-You believe you can best decide how to spend the money you earn;
-You believe you can best decide what to do with your own property;
-You value nature and animal life, which is why you don't want government to own or manage them;
-You oppose not only welfare for individuals, but welfare for corporations, farms, and foreign countries;
-You think adults should be able to decide for themselves whether to wear a seat belt or a helmet, have air bags in their cars, smoke, drink, or use drugs;
-You value life, which is why you don't want government regulating people's lives;
-You pay for what you get and don't expect your neighbor to buy it for you;
-You believe that the only volunteerism of value is truly voluntary;
-You think criminals should pay for their crimes, and victims should be compensated;
-You believe crimes occur only when there are victims of force or fraud;
-You believe individuals have the right to keep and bear arms;
-You believe all individuals should receive due process of the law;
-You believe juries can judge the law as well as the facts of a case;
-You believe that if your actions are not causing harm to another then the government should leave you alone;
-You believe government should not interfere in your choices of friends and associates;
-You believe that businesses should be able to hire or fire whoever they choose;
-You believe businesses can run their business better than government;
-You don't believe corporations "owe" anything to anyone, other than their owners or stockholders;
-You believe that your money is your money to spend, save, invest, or give away as you see fit;
-You believe one can choose where to live based only on financial means and personal desires;
-You don't believe government can make us all equal or make life fair;
-You don't believe government should subsidize anyone or anything;
-You don't believe government should impose rent or price controls, nor ration goods or services;
-You believe the free market can better fulfill people's needs and desires;
-You believe the Federal Reserve is unnecessary and harmful
-You believe private individuals and organizations are more accountable and responsible than government;
-You think private charity works better than government give-aways;
-You believe the military should defend only our country;
-You believe in freedom of speech;
-You believe we wouldn't need campaign finance reform if the government wasn't giving so much away;
-You believe we should have free markets in education;
-You think there is nothing secure about "Social Security"
-You think we'd all be healthier if government wasn't in the health care business;
-You believe individuals should be free to choose any person to doctor them, and free to choose any type treatment and drugs they want, and buy any type health insurance that a free market could provide;
-You think we have too many federal laws and too much government;
-You don't believe the government "gives" anything without taking something away;
-You seek freedom.

 

[tyme]

I voted for Walt Brown.

He convinced me during the four-party comedy, I mean debate, at Cornell, when he said with great eloquence:

Okay, one or two quick items. We represent a world-wide movement for democracy in the workplace, for economic, political, and social life. I'll tell you more about it later, but remember this: the word socialist didn't come from Marx or Hitler or Mao Tse Tung or Castro. It came from a Christian industrialist by the name of John Owen who thought that he could run business fairer for the workers and the consumers, and came to the United States and got a standing ovation in a joint session of Congress for his ideas. The word "socialist" comes out of a consumer cooperative planning publication in 1828, and it has nothing to do with those no-goodskies. And when the FBI or President Bush show their ignorance and want to give us a bad time, or President Wilson during World War I... (cut off by moderator for running over the time limit ... in his opening statement... )

Don't shoot! Only kidding! I voted for Badnarik.

 

[Charley]

Thanks Erikd65 for the list of Libertarian beliefs.
My delimma is that I agree with many of them, but not all of them. Some of them I agree with in theory, in a "perfect world" sense, but do not think they could ever be accomplished in "the real world". Likewise, some of my views fall in with the Demos and the Repubs. On election day, I have to prioritize the issues that I feel are most important, and vote accordingly. I think it would be easier on the mind to be a diehard Demo, or diehard Repub or diehard Libertarian. Yet I do not see any of the parties as being 100% correct.

 

[erikd65]

Agreed. I actually voted for candidates in three parties running for various offices, so I am not a die hard Libertarian, but they are in line with most of my beliefs for the most part.

 

[abelew]

Libertarian Views seem....

Generally good ideas and sense, however I do believe that the nation requires taxes, because how else would it run? Likewise, many of their views are common sense, with a few that I believe would lead to anarchism and classism. I do not believe in the "good will of men", because usually, everyone is out for themselves, not the good of the nation. We are a people governed by a controlled greed, that we dare not speak of, but, with our system of laws, keeps everyone "in line." Remove some of those restrictions, and we would crumble. Also, I didnt vote for a alternate party candidate for one reason. I believe Bush is public enemy #1, unless you make more than $100,000 a year, then he is your best friend. Evenso, he still makes our country look like a nation of rednecks, baffoons who have no grammer, speaking, or many other skills, which wants to "nation build" for the furtherence of it's own oil policy. Kerry was not a good candidate, nor do I believe much of what the Democratic party does, but he was one thing that won my vote. KERRY IS NOT G.W. BUSH!!!!

 

[gburner]

Marko...
Some clarification. Even though the parties mentioned may have, under your calculation, affected the actual outcome of the election, they seem to have had no influence on the running of the government, either domestically or internationally, nor does it appear that they will in the forseeable future. There are no legislative, constitutional or policy changes directly attributable to these third parties. Same with Nader, Perot, Wallace, Anderson, and the rest of what I like to call the 10 per centers.

The 'political masturbation' comment was directed specifically at Psycho Sword, who, unlike dev.null and erikd65, seems to be inarticulate in the 'why' department when discussing third party voting and seems to be content with aggressive chest thumping, paranoid posturing and snide remarks. Otherwise, I do believe that most people here vote their conscience and have the best interests of the country at heart.

The libertarians have the BEST platform in the world. Built on individual rights, self determination, personal accountability and extremely limited governmental impact on our lives, a person would be foolish to fail to be attracted by its promise. Unfortunately, they would be equally foolish to believe that this utopian platform would ever stand the test of being implemented in the real world. Folks forget that one of the very first things that the FF's did upon forming this great nation was begin to implement a workable system of governance (read make laws or begin interfering in citizen's lives). With that came all of the 'real world' evils, issues, problems, compromises and differences that still plague us today. I am a big proponent of eliminating as much government interference in individual lives as possible. Until there's a viable candidate that can do that with a good chance of winning, I'll continue to vote for the one who is whittling slower than the other one.

 

[PsychoSword]

Psycho...
Just as your vote was sacrificed on the altar of impotent victimhood. You don't know what it is to compromise your 'ideals' because you know that you're not going to win...EVER.

I vote for the candidate who best represents my personal beliefs. If that is impotent victimhood in the eyes of a collectivist, than so be it. You dare to call me a defeatist. That is truly funny. A party other than the Republicraps can get into power believe it or not. You just have to voice your support of them and urge others who believe as you do to vote for them.

But winning is not important to you 'cause if you won then you'd have to do something besides run your mouth. Your vote is egotistical symbolism; political masturbation. What a luxury it must be to sit at home, blaming 'big brother' for all of your problems while pleasuring yourself at the thought of supporting a party that never has nor never will have even the most miniscule effect on the political environment or world events.

No party has an effect on world events. Public opinion does. You can call me down all you want for voting my beliefs, but it still doesn't raise you above the level of being tool of establishment politics. Your programmed thoughts are a dime a dozen.

Your candidates ideas exist only in theory. Your candidates don't win in any meaningful elections, so they don't have to produce any meaningful results. To you, they are above the criticism and reproach of us dirty folks who have to operate in the world, make real world choices, make real world compromises. Meanwhile you scorfully take a free ride on the backs of those of us who have to take the real world a little more seriously and all the while you throw rocks fom the margins. You're the lunatic fringe. Grow up.

You know what you said is completely false. Libertarian candidates are more scrutinized by their peers than anyone else. It's just a fact of life for "far right wing" candidates. We need the whole lunatic fringe on our side to bring us back from the brink of insanity.

And what- how tilted and what direction do you think the media is?

Money and power. The media only has one bias, money and power. There is no "left wing" or "right wing" force behind it. It's all just terminology to confuse folks.

Psycho,
if your intention is truly to help create a viable 3rd party, wouldn't you be posting about the 2008 election, instead of rehashing opinions about an election that is already come and gone? Even though they didn't win the presidential election, surely the Libertarian party and others are active in trying to influence in other ways, right? Or are they simply standing on their soap box and hollering out derisions on everyone else, as you seem prone to do? Reading your posts, I learn nothing about the Libertarian or other 3rd party postions. All I hear is that everyone who voted for Bush or Kerry is a simpleminded sheep following the collective herd.

I didn't know it was my job to educate you. I just post how I think. That's the saddest thing nowadays, everyone expects somebody else to have the answers and the tell them how to think. Does that have anything to do with the frustration thinkers have with the sheeple?

3rd parties huh? How about alternative parties beyond that? Asking how someone voted is not rehashing. If you've noticed I have posted about the 2008 election, but see....the 2004 election just happened.

The 'political masturbation' comment was directed specifically at Psycho Sword, who, unlike dev.null and erikd65, seems to be inarticulate in the 'why' department when discussing third party voting and seems to be content with aggressive chest thumping, paranoid posturing and snide remarks. Otherwise, I do believe that most people here vote their conscience and have the best interests of the country at heart.

What more do you need? I voted my ideals and you voted your ideals away to a great extent. Nobody can ever agree with anyone else 100%, but we should have agreement on one thing and that is to stick to our principles and vote for the candidate whose beliefs best reflect the Constitution of the U.S.A. If you consider that to be chest thumping then I have to say that I feel sorry for you.

The libertarians have the BEST platform in the world. Built on individual rights, self determination, personal accountability and extremely limited governmental impact on our lives, a person would be foolish to fail to be attracted by its promise. Unfortunately, they would be equally foolish to believe that this utopian platform would ever stand the test of being implemented in the real world. Folks forget that one of the very first things that the FF's did upon forming this great nation was begin to implement a workable system of governance (read make laws or begin interfering in citizen's lives). With that came all of the 'real world' evils, issues, problems, compromises and differences that still plague us today. I am a big proponent of eliminating as much government interference in individual lives as possible. Until there's a viable candidate that can do that with a good chance of winning, I'll continue to vote for the one who is whittling slower than the other one.

"We've all become marginalized and there's nothing I'm can do about it, so I'm gonna go vote for Bush" huh?

I don't support tyranny in any form. Incremental or otherwise. The problem is that the incrimental tyranny which you advocate is harder to recognize and becomes longer lasting. If I had voted for Bush knowing what I know, I could not ever have any respect for myself again. I don't know how anyone could voting for a candidate they don't like. I just don't understand it and never will.

The whole chest thumping thing has just got me eternally baffled. It's not like you have to go out in a Gladiator ring and fight to vote for your rights. You just punch the paper pal.

 

[Charley]

I didn't know it was my job to educate you. I just post how I think. That's the saddest thing nowadays, everyone expects somebody else to have the answers and the tell them how to think. Does that have anything to do with the frustration thinkers have with the sheeple?

I don't think any of us come to TFL to get educated. However, there are those who at least try to back up their positions with some sort of substance. Your main point (pun intended) often seems to simply be: me right, you stupid sheep.
You do not seem to be able to conceive of anyone voting their hearts and minds and voting for a Rebublican or Democrat. They are all "collectivists" with "programmed thoughts".
Let's see...lumping large amounts of people into nice tight catagories...seeing things only in black and white...inability to accept that others may be as sincere in their opinions as you...dosed with an ample amount of self-righteousness...
just because your sheep is black, doesn't mean you ain't one too.
bah..ah..ah...

 

[Charley]

I don't think any of us come to TFL to get educated.

I would like to correct myself. Actually, I was only thinking about the political threads when I wrote that. Aside from the voicing of our political opinions, there is a heap of educational material at TFL.

 

[PsychoSword]

inability to accept that others may be as sincere in their opinions as you...dosed with an ample amount of self-righteousness...
just because your sheep is black, doesn't mean you ain't one too.
bah..ah..ah...

I take issue with the voters like gburner who think they're doing a great service by compromising their vote and that people who vote on principle are just silly irresponsible kids. In reality they are doing a great disservice to the cause of liberty. I don't ever compromise. I don't vote to send politicians to Washington who will compromise away their principles and beliefs.

As Col. Craig Roberts says, "We didn't send you there to compromise. We sent you there to draw a line in the sand! You don't ever compromise, because compromise allows the enemy to advance halfway and they ask for the rest tomorrow."

 

[gburner]

Psychosword writes,
'I don't vote to send politicians to Washington who will compomise away their principles and beliefs'.

Newsflash, sparky...
If you're votin' strictly Libertarian, you ain't sending NOBODY to Washington. It remains to be seen how they'd do with the whole compromise thing. They can't get elected so we'll never know. Just another case of you runnin' your mouth without engaging your brain.

 

[PsychoSword]

Let's get this straight, neither of us are sending anyone to D.C., the candidates are pre-selected. We simply vote. If a Libertarian can cost a RINO the selection er I mean election than all the better in the long run. And it strengthens the party. You may not look at things that way, but I do. I think we can just agree to disagree on this one.

 

[TheBluesMan]

I think we can just agree to disagree on this one.

I sincerely hope so... I'm runnin' out of padlocks.

 

[gburner]

Done and done...finis.

 

[snacktrack]

can i get a witness?

No party has an effect on world events. Public opinion does. You can call me down all you want for voting my beliefs, but it still doesn't raise you above the level of being tool of establishment politics. Your programmed thoughts are a dime a dozen.

Amen brother. Well said, I also voted for whom I wanted to be president. Isnt that the idea of an election? And if two people were driving a car into a brick wall BLuesMan, Kerry at 75 mph, and Bush pedal to the metal lol, why not chose someone who will turn the wheel??

 

[Derius_T]

I just have one thing to post and it is in response to someones post about the belief system of the libertarian party.

You oppose government forcing people into the military, Americorps, or any other government organization

So if America was invaded, and everyone wanted to turn french and not fight, you couldn't raise an army?

You think the best tax reform would be to eliminate taxes

And how pray tell, would anything get paid for? You gonna do it?

You value nature and animal life, which is why you don't want government to own or manage them

You want independant people to manage it so they can set the prices as
they see fit, or deny you food if they see fit?

You oppose not only welfare for individuals.......

Guess you've never been poor? Disabled?

You value life, which is why you don't want government regulating people's lives

No we need no laws or regulations, total anarchy is cool!

You believe juries can judge the law as well as the facts of a case

Yeah, I want some doofus WITHOUT PROPER SCHOOLING interpreting LAW
when I'm about to fry......awesome...

You believe government should not interfere in your choices of friends and associates

No, you should be able to host luncheons for your taliban, or communist, or
nazi buddies anytime you want!

You believe that businesses should be able to hire or fire whoever they choose

Sure, they should hire all the foreigners for $4.00/hr while honest americans
starve.....awesome idea.....

You believe businesses can run their business better than government

Sure, businesses should answer to no one! They can charge whatever they
want, and deny goods and services to whoever they want!

You don't believe government should subsidize anyone or anything

Of course not, screw that legless veteran, or disabled guy who can't make
enough to provide for his family, (cuz businesses control themselves now,
and don't have to give him a fair chance at employment) He doesn't need
any help. The government can provide for him. Oh WAIT, your government
doesn't DO that anymore either.....guess the libertarian party has to pay
for him out of pocket............

You don't believe government should impose rent or price controls, nor ration goods or services

No, price control is bad! It should be run like a black market, with those in
control charging whatever the hell they want with no regulations! Thats
awesome......

You believe private individuals and organizations are more accountable and responsible than government

So, private individuals should take it upon themselves to make sure everything
stays in top running order? Your gonna go out and repave the roads and
highways yourself, cuz the government doesn't do that anymore. Your going
to farm all your own food and raise all your own animals now, cuz without
regulations, the guy at the supermarket charges $50.00 for a carton of eggs.
Your going to just let absolute public, individual whim rule, with no viable
system of checks and balances.....it goes on and on.....see how RETARDED
it all seems to a logical person? Oops! Guess not............