In the extremely unlikely event...

Wearing a AK-47 front chest rig, might give the Daesh a false sense of confidence...but I wouldn't be surprised if they'd be wearing some kind of soft body armor underneath it.
 
JERRYS. said:
if and when hits COM don't do it, failure drill should be instinctive. even a shot to the leg or arm can do wonders...
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Great advice:)
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kilimanjaro said:
Contrary to popular belief, someone hit while wearing body armor is going to be out of action for a while.
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OldMarksman replied:
Where did you get that idea?
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With knock down power, and getting the wind knocked out of you, a person should be out of commission, but only temporarily, as in less than a minute. Then I would imagine they would be back in the action or retreating.
 
With knock down power, and getting the wind knocked out of you, a person should be out of commission, but only temporarily, as in less than a minute. Then I would imagine they would be back in the action or retreating.
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seriously. :rolleyes:
 
Posted by chimo:
While normally, taking a hit in your body armor is going to hurt like hell and probably at least stop you temporarily, ...
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Posted by silverbullet6oh:
With knock down power, and getting the wind knocked out of you, a person should be out of commission, but ....
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Look: that "knock down power" will entail no more momentum than the recoil of the firearm that fired the projectile. It will not have "knocked the wind out of " the shooter, nor will it do so to the shootee. That's extremely basic physics--Newton's third law of motion.

There is an old law enforcement training video that takes apart a number of myths. In one demonstration, a man shoots a 7.62 FAL rifle point-blank at a man wearing body armor. It doesn't hurt the shooter, and it doesn't hurt the man with the armor.
 
In the extremely unlikely event...
That one is in the middle of an ISIS terror attack, is there any evidence that the terrorists ever wear body armor? I ask because I'm thinking of changing my carry ammo to something that can defeat lightweight body armor in case I have to engage a target so equipped. I have never heard or read of them wearing vests, but they are very military in nature, so I wouldn't be surprised. Anyone know anything?
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Not something that's going to make me lose any sleep. I'll continue to carry the same types of ammunition in my retirement weapons.

Rather than think some theoretical "AP capability" of my handgun ammo choices would be in any way needed, I'd rather devote time to working on my skillset, awareness and equipment (guns & holsters) inspections and maintenance. Those things don't come out of a box and take some continued attention and work, granted. ;)

I'll also continue to keep in mind that not being mistaken as a criminal/terrorist by responding LE, or even another lawfully armed citizen, is likely to be VERY beneficial in such a situation.
 
Yes, impacts can be painful, and even do some damage...sometimes.
Handgun rounds, even against non-armored targets have a relatively low chance of instant incapacitation. To assume that the impact of a handgun bullet against a vest (much less a plate) would instantly knock a determined fighter out of the battle is simply foolish, and unsupported by available evidence.
 
When I was using the term "knockdown power," I was not saying it to imply that the force of the projectile will knock someone off their feet and thrown backwards. That would never happen unless the projectile were very large and moving at a relatively slow speed like, say, a bowling ball. I merely mean that the person receiving a hit or a blow will simply go down. It does not mean they will stay down. It does not mean they are incapacitated, no more than momentarily. It just means they are down, like what happens to a boxer when he is knocked down.

In regards to shootings, if the target (the person being shot at) is behind cover, it is likely that the head will be the part exposed more than anything else. A hit to the top of the head, or for that matter, a blow with a blunt object, will generally cause the person to go down. They may get back up right away but that's all I mean when I use the term. And naturally, results are not guaranteed. The same thing happens to animals sometimes with hits almost anywhere. But animals are not people.
 
It does not mean they will stay down. It does not mean they are incapacitated, no more than momentarily. It just means they are down, like what happens to a boxer when he is knocked down.
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People have had multiple hits no vest , and did not go down and continued fighting.
 
I know saying that folks should train offends some but practicing a failure to stop drill is worth it.

Shoooting a rock at the ranch and being trained by "Daddy" may not be sufficient if you are serious.
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LOL... I lost it when I read this.
 
And naturally, results are not guaranteed.

Hasn't anyone here ever been knocked down? I have. But I've also received blows on my head that required stitches and I didn't go down, although I bled like crazy.

Results are always unpredictable because people are so different. Some people, mostly men, I assume, are used to being hit. Others might go into shock at something that wouldn't even faze someone else. They give decorations to men who keep fighting. They just give Purple Hearts to the others. The only thing common to all of them is a temporary lack of good luck.
 
Shoot for the Head...

I carry FMJ 230 Grain hardball in my Ultra Carry. I don't use jacketed because I just don't trust it 100% in functioning correctly. This, I have practiced aiming for the head but I wouldn't hesitated to shoot for the body if that was the better target.
 
I used to think a hit to the body armor was disabling like you see in the movies.

In actual use I have never heard of, seen video of, or anything else of someone going down when hit with a handgun round in even soft body armor that caught the bullet. I have seen videos of guys getting hit with rifle rounds, going down as if sucker punched, and immediately getting back up.
This video of a US soldier being shot is probably the best known. As soon as he figures out what is happening he is back on his feet and moving. He probably got hit in a trauma plate, but that was also a rifle round. A terrorist with armor would likely have a trauma plate anyways I think it was reported as X39.

ISIS etc. don't have armor in the middle east when they are going into combat daily and hoping to live through it.
pelvic girdle.
 
What you have just described is exactly what I mean by knockdown power.

Just remember that Fairbairn wrote that the more he studied the question of knockdown power (which would have been in the 1930s), the less certain he was of anything. Anyway, it should not be confused with lethality.

For what it's worth, in none of the combat videos one sees on YouTube of fighting in the Middle East, particularly in Syria, almost no one is wearing any armor, not even helmets, and they are otherwise always lightly equipped. Also, one almost never sees anything but AK rifles and carbines, PK or PKM machine guns and the various Eastern Bloc sniper rifles in the way of small arms. There may be SKS rifles, Mausers, Enfields or Stg44s around but they never show up in videos. It does, however, make you wonder how all those people get their weapons and ammunition, especially the more sophisticated guided missiles.
 
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If faced with an attacker wearing body armor I would most likely shoot for the head or legs after finding cover, as my little .380 isn't going to do much against the armor. Changing your carry ammo to account for this EXTREMELY unlikely scenario would be a bad idea IMO.
 
Chances are, you'd never know if he was wearing body armor in the first place. If you could tell just by looking, it would probably be too late.
 
Given that many people have discussed carrying extra magazines in the wake of the Paris attacks, one could always consider carrying a mag filled (partly or all the way) with armor-piercing rounds.
 
Folks hit in soft armor with handgun rounds RARELY exhibit any reaction to the hit

Here are 2 examples i am personally acquainted with. Both in LA, both Brinks guards involved in Robberies i had the "pleasure" of responding to. Both guys hit with handguns in soft armor

1. Just outside the USC campus, guy was hit in the back just over a kidney with a 44mag JSP. He was wearing a 3a vest. Didnt go down. Turned and returned fire. Was taken to the hospital and released later that same day. I heard he was passing blood for a cpl days but it didnt slow him down during the response.

2 Just south of LA, another armored car guard was hit in the chest while engaging 3 badguys. The hit was with a 380acp FMJ bullet. Vest was a Safariland multi-flex level 2 vest with soft trama plates. The hit was center chest just right of the second button, striking the soft trama plate.

This guy didnt even know he was hit until someone asked him about the hole in his shirt. The shirt came off and there is a bullet stuck in his vest. He got a little weak in the knees seeing that, but the hit had ZERO effect on his ability to fight.

There are tons of vest saves recorded around the world and VERY few report being "knocked down".

If you want to see the effect in action. Hang a heavy (punching) bag (~70lbs) and put a vest over it. Shoot the vest. Observe how little the bag moved. Thats only 70lbs. Now put that vest on a 170-200lb man and explain HOW be gets knocked down by that small amount of energy.
 
Given that many people have discussed carrying extra magazines in the wake of the Paris attacks, one could always consider carrying a mag filled (partly or all the way) with armor-piercing rounds.
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Except AP pistol rounds are ILLEGAL in the USA....:rolleyes:
 
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