I'm so angry I could ....

Status
Not open for further replies.
I *hate* things like this. It's absolutely absurd to argue that instead of defending yourself, you should have simply let someone beat on you or harass you while you went and "talked with the higher authority" (in this case, the teacher.) Come on - half of the time the teacher doesn't believe you, and the other time they give the offender a slap on the wrist. The only time they ever do anything halfway serious is after the abuse has already happened - nobody should have to subject themself to harm in order to get some justice done.

I remember when I was back in elementary school I used to get pushed around a fair bit. One day this girl came up to me and told me straight up, "You shouldn't let people push you around like that." It stuck, and I remember it vividly to this day as one of the pivotal moments in my life. I'm smaller than a lot of people, but I'm not about to take **** from *anyone,* even if that means I get roughed up a bit in the process.

As someone who fairly recently got out of high-school and knows how people get abused and shoved around, tell your daughter "good job" from me. She did the right thing and it's appalling that the legalities of this whole situation have to obscure that.

Utterly, utterly pathetic - we are growing into a nation of people incapable of defending ourselves by any means other than submission to legal technicalities.
 
Pax,
I don't think he said that to his daughter. It may have been a bad thing to say, but I imagine he wasn't to worried about his terminology while typing his post. Not excusing it, but that's kind of a odd thing to pick out of his post. Couldn't that have been taken up in a pm and asked him to edit it?

And that's coming from me and you know how I stand on issues of that sort. I.E see the "My wife needs a girly gun" threads.
 
Get a copy of the Parents Bill of Rights, Sue the school for failing to provide a safe learning enviroment for your child, use the Parents Bill of Rights to protect your child against the business of education.
Click to expand...

I didn't know there was such a thing. Thanks .

What I do know is this girl was already in trouble earlier that day ... and where as my daughter will be suspended for 2 days and charged with Disorderly conduct ... I was told this girl may be expelled.

What she'll get charged with I have no idea.

Again ... I just do not understand how you paint kids with the same brush like this. And why something like this was not handled in house. What infuriates me the most is the cuffs , ride in the police car and the police station work.

We have a known trouble maker , against a staright A honor roll student who's never been in trouble for more than being late to class.

Where's the common sense ?
 
POINTER SAYS

Attorneys...assuming you have told us the wjole accurate story...
Go see an attorney who will sue the department for arresting the victim.
Find out why the Arresting Officer arrested the victim... was he ordered to? Then sue the one who ordered him to make the victim pay for defending herself...

And sue the school system and Teacher and Principle and Superintendent, for having the OBVIOUS victim arrested... with the assailant...
AND force them to prove that your daughter deserved to be arrested and make the school board prove your daughter had any guilt in the matter...

They will say they had to be fair and apply an even-handed pressure to both suspected kids... as if they couldn't see who was the assailant by physical size alone...

How about witnesses? Did anyone see the assailant start the attack?

They will almost certainly settle out of court... they'd be fools to push it into the publicity lime light...
Click to expand...

The problem is they hide behind this "ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY"

The truth of the matter is , they knew who started it ... a number of children all told them. The other girl was already in trouble earlier that day.

I was told that had my daughter stopped fighting when she had the chance she would not have been charged.

I'D love to know when that was exactly . When the other girl had a handfull of her hair perhaps ?
 
jfrey123 says

I'm sorry to play devils advocate here, but look at the situation from an eye witness standpoint...

Two girls were fighting: It doesn't matter who is bigger or not, the officers on scene obviously didn't know who started it. I sure hope if some one half my size starts try to beat on me that they don't arrest only me cause I'm bigger. If she knew she was defending herself, then she should've know that she would be just fine when everything got straightened out.

They had procedure to follow: There was outrage over a case a few years back where an officer arrested an 80 year old woman on an outstanding warrant for failure to appear for traffic violations. He handcuffed her, because PROCEDURE says to handcuff all criminals arrested on outstanding warrants. He ended up losing his job over it. The officers in your case sound like they followed procedure. Damn them to hell for doing their job.


I'm not saying she shouldn't defend herself. I was brought up the same way: If someone hits me then I better be swingin back until they're down or authorities interupt it. Unfortunatly, in our society, everything can't be cut and dry. In every case were I defended myself, I went to the principal's office, and often times was suspended. To keep our schools safe, fighting is completely prohibited, and your daughter got caught up in the system.

Everyone says lawsuits against McDonalds over spilled hot coffee are stupid, but it's lawsuits like the one being discussed here that open the door for those fast food suits. I'm sorry, my friend, but your daughter was involved in a crime. She was detained until her motives were justified and then she was released. Let it go.
Click to expand...

The officers were called while the girls sat in the office. A number of other children all stated who started the fight and the girl was already in trouble earlier that day.

I'm sorry ... but we need to bring back some common sense.

Not a single officer I talked to liked doing their job to my daughter and my neighbor (The police liason) stated he would go to court on her behalf.

I'm sorry , but it's ridiulous and we're getting to the point that soon we're going to be reasding in the news

WOMAN CHARGED WITH ASSAULT FOR KICKING , BITING AND PUNCHING HER RAPIST.

IMO it's almost that ridiculous.
 
Arresting both parties in a fight, when there is proof that one is a victim, is the lazy "I don't have to make a decision" way of doing business. I don't care if it's zero tolerance or "the captain", you don't arrest a victim that was defending themselves when the proof is available.
 
THis sort of thing is not new to me. I posted this in another thread which is now closed so I reckon I'll post the story here.

This was in 4th grade. A kid who was known to be such a big trouble maker that they sent him back from the 6th grade, started a fight with me. My class had just gotten through with lunch & had to line up to go back to class. By pure coincidence I happened to be first in line. He didn't like that. I'm not sure why as there was no reward going to the first person in line it was just a line . He started tapping me repeatedly on the shoulder. I asked him what did he want & he said nothing. I turned back around & then he started tapping me on the shoulder again. I told him to quit it. He persisted. I turned around & warned him to quit it. He didn't. Then I spun around & gave him a hard right that sent him back a few feet. He may have been bigger but I have the gift of grit & no matter how much pain I take I get right back up. I'm stubborn I reckon. Anyway during the fight I get pushed down. Then the trouble maker turned his back to me & I got him in a neck lock. Then the Teacher showed up at last & ordered us both to the principals office. It didn't matter to her that all the other kids** testified that I was in the right. As punishment, we both had to sit out in the hall for the rest of the day. I didn't mind as the only class left was Spanish class & I never liked it anyway. After the teacher left, I went to the library to read which I did enjoy:D .

My advice has already been said. Talk to a lawyer & get the record expunged or else it might come back & bite her if she ever wants to buy her own guns. Also, try to get a huge settlement so that you can buy her a pink AR** with all the trimmings as a reward for defending herself.

*Even kids who were normally not friends of mine.
**No offense Pax. I'm just using that as a example.
 
Your daughter is suspended for 2 days and charged with disorderly conduct? :mad: :mad: :mad: I'd have someone's head over this, and their car, house, livelihood! Self defense is not disorderly conduct! I'd list anyone and everyone I could on that lawsuit now. Who is doing the charging? I'd think you wouldn't have a problem with that criminally and should be able to have it expunged entirely.

If there are academic consequences from this 2 day suspension, I'd fight them too. Absolutely asinine:mad: :mad: :mad:
 
Zero Tolerance means you don't have to think. Zero Tolerance means there are no decisions to make. Zero Tolerance means everyone is guilty, there are no innocents. And Zero Tolerance started at your local Board of Education.

Personally, I wouldn't even bother with the idjuts at the school, I'd start right were the policy was made. The Board itself.
:barf:
 
Get ready, because it's not often I agree that an LEO crossed the line. This guy is a moron. I could understand checking both for weapons after finding none, it was nothing more than a "playground" fight. It should have stopped there.
 
Petre, sorry to hear what happened to your daughter. I went through basically the same thing when the school bully jumped on my son. My kid mopped the floor with him. Teachers saw the whole thing, sided with my son, and charges were not persued, as could have been the case if common sense hadn't prevailed. We were lucky for sure.
Antipitas is right, go after the school board. They know the policy is wrong and a jury will side with you, plus they are scared silly of being sued. Things won't change if everybody just rolls over for it. Good luck.

badbob
 
And why something like this was not handled in house. What infuriates me the most is the cuffs , ride in the police car and the police station work.
Click to expand...

Columbine hysteria.

When i was a kid, I would be involved in a fight at least once every school year, and the worst punishment we suffered was a trip to the principal's office, a stern lecture, and being forced to face each other and shakke hands.

Most of the time, we just ended up shaking hands and making peace on our own.

I agree w/Antipitas that the school board is the best place to start.complaining.
 
UPDATE on this ...

WOW ... :eek:

EVERYONE is backpedaling on this one ... the school , the police (we went to the PD as well as the schoold today to get some answers) ...

It was actually uncomfortable talking to the principal as I WANTED to be angry and he couldn't apologize hard enough.

I'm in shock. He said he had no idea she was cuffed/printed etc ... and was absolutely mortified. He said it was school board policy to call the police now or he'd have just had her calm down in the office.

This however showed me WHO I need to direct my anger at ... Antipas is 100% correct ... the SCHOOL BOARD and their asinine policy is definitely the place to see.

My daughter is back in school tomorrow with an apology from the principal who acknowledged it was not her that was at fault ... hard to be mad at him anymore.

The other girl is going to be expelled but oddly enough was at school today because ... there was no one to watch her .... WHAT A SURPRISE.

Anyway ... I now need to talk to some idiot professor that heads the districts school board.

Thank you for all the thoughtful comments .
 
Same thing happened with my 14-year-old son a couple of months ago, more or less. I didn't post this here, but on a car forum where I've been a member for a long time. I went through the same thing, with the Zero Tolerance and Zero Brains, as there were plenty of witnesses. Reposted here...

Punk kid 0, my kid 1.


Ok, more correctly, it's punk kid 1, my kid 2. At school today, while headed for the bus, some kid sucker-punched my 14-year-old son in the side of the head, knocking off his glasses. The kid tried to throw another right hand, and my son dodged it, so he tried a left hand, and my son slipped that, too. As the kid was pulling back the left hand, my kid jacked him in the jaw with a right, and followed with a left to the other side of his jaw. The punk kid went down and went fetal for a few seconds, thinking my kid was going to stomp him. My son was ready for round 2, but the kid ran off. There were no adult witnesses, but about 5 kids saw it. My son is almost 6'1", about 150, and fast as lightning. I guess those Tae Kwon Do lessons, and more recently the boxing lessons paid off. He said the kids eyes were kinda glazed over, and he ran kinda sideways when he took off. I tried not to laugh, but I smiled, told him "good job", and gave him a hug. His school has 4000 students, with plenty of gangs and a-holes, and he said he sees fights all the time. It's just one of the reasons we're moving this summer...

The day later...

The wife and kid talked to an Assistant Principal and one of the school police this morning. It's just about what I expected: If they take a report and they find out who the other kid is, they both get tickets (which I assume would be for Disorderly Conduct - fighting in a public place). They asked him about any problems with other students, and then said people don't get hit for no reason. My wife pointed out that kids get singled out and hit, and they replied that that only happens to gang members, and then asked if my son was in a gang. Yeah, that's great, turn it on the victim. I'm thinking of having my own talk with these people.
 
Petre, don't drop the ball here.

Yes, I know they are all backpeddling. But the damage is done. Your daughter was arrested and booked. She now has a criminal record, even though charges may have been dropped!

In a similar situation, what I did was to have my attorney draft a letter of intent to sue and hand it to the Board. Then I had him start the process to expunge my son's record.

How it works in your area of the country may be different than mine. But the upshot was that I never had to actually sue. The Board paid for the expungement and my attorney's fees. Plus, the Board changed the policy to reflect that students do have the right to defend themselves from unwarranted aggression... This was all laid out in the letter of intent.

I consider that well worth the $500 1987 dollars I was out (yes, this crud was happening 20 years ago), for about 3 months.
 
I assume your daughter was cuffed in the presence of others. That being the case "no harm, no foul" just won't cut it. It is one thing for the principal to be apologetic in you and your daughter's presence. It is another issue for the principal to make the point publicly that your daughter did not deserve to be cuffed and hauled and that what happened to her was wrong. Good reputations are hard to achieve and very easy to lose. You daughter did nothing to deserve a shot at her character.

Justa thought.
 
"My wife pointed out that kids get singled out and hit, and they replied that that only happens to gang members, and then asked if my son was in a gang."

That's a good one. I was in NRSK (the nerdy redheaded short kids with glasses) gang. That's why I was singled out. :rolleyes:

I got in a fight with a sixteen year old seventh grader on the back of a bus in middle school. We didn't have zero tolerance then. The assistant principal opened his book and asked my attacker how many times he had been in the office. "I don't know.... Two?" "I'm still in April, and you've got more than that."

I was let off with a warning. He got two weeks in-school-suspension. It carried into the next year. :D

By the time I got to high school we had zero tolerance, ten days out for fighting, both parties. The way it was explained to us was, "If you put up your hands you're fighting." A very liberal, pacifist, friend of mine was beaten up when he asked (very politely I might add) for a classmate to stop harassing his sister. It turned into Man, I don't want to fight you; I just want you to leave her alone. I don't want to get kicked out. This backpedaling continued throughout the entire beating. He put up his hands, sure, but it was just because it's instinct to cover your head when it's being hit. A bunch of other kids saw this, including friends of the beater who thought my friend was a sissy for refusing to fight back. Everyone said he never did anything to defend himself.

We had another policy that you automatically failed a class if you missed more than 9 days. So this kid darned near failed a whole semester of classes over this thing.

Fortunately, he was let back into school after three days, because several parents and kids came forward on his behalf.

I can't imagine getting arrested and charged criminally for something like the original poster described. This is what the system has given our children to bear. It almost brings tears to my eyes to think what our grandchildren are going to have to deal with.
 
Last edited:
Hurt 'em bad.
Make 'em think (for a change).
It's about time.
I am not a sue-'em-all type but this makes me crazy.

Do a favor for the next class. Make them think.
 
Antipitas says - Petre, don't drop the ball here.

Yes, I know they are all backpeddling. But the damage is done. Your daughter was arrested and booked. She now has a criminal record, even though charges may have been dropped!

In a similar situation, what I did was to have my attorney draft a letter of intent to sue and hand it to the Board. Then I had him start the process to expunge my son's record.

How it works in your area of the country may be different than mine. But the upshot was that I never had to actually sue. The Board paid for the expungement and my attorney's fees. Plus, the Board changed the policy to reflect that students do have the right to defend themselves from unwarranted aggression... This was all laid out in the letter of intent.

I consider that well worth the $500 1987 dollars I was out (yes, this crud was happening 20 years ago), for about 3 months.
Click to expand...

Thank you for that advice ... I'm going to talk to my Lawyer about taking this plan of action.

Someone needs to do something about some of these stupid rules. Might as well be me. And I certainly do not want my daughter to have a record for this ridiculous incident.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top