I'm so angry at S&W, are there firearm lemon laws?

So I had a look at my S&W 460 XVR PC and I have the same process markings in my bore as the OP is observing. It does not appear that I have the said marks in my rifling though. My rifling looks smooth. Not worried about this as my 12" 460 shoots outstanding out to 200 meters. I tried taking some borescope photos but they didnt come out so well. I would have to say that my bore marks are slightly less than what I see in the op's pic. I have about 400 rounds through my 460 so it's possible that there is a period of time where fired rounds "lap" the barrels' machined surfaces.





 
I've been a machinist for a long time.. heck, been at my custom job shop since 96', I did my apprenticeship in tool rooms and work now with CNCs and lasers. Looking at the OP's picture... I'm just scratching my head trying to figure out how those tooling marks were put in.

It almost looks as if a rifling broach was chattering while going through. But other posters have said they use EDM now. Using EDM can leave manufacturing marks... but not like that in my experience. Also, looking at the right side raised land, it looks as if those marks are cut all the way through. See how they almost look like a bunch of beads or wire ends placed side-by-side? That is cut through.

I wouldn't continue to fire that gun no matter how many people tell you to " just shoot it and don't worry"... Because, that my friend , is worrying.

**Edit: I see that is actually ECM, not EDM, that they are using. I'm not familar with that techniuqe.. so perhaps that is why I am so confused looking at it. That said, I just did a search for ECM rifling and did not see any image look like that OP's picture. I still say don't shoot that thing.
 
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Instead of everyone sending the OP into a panic, how about we put this to bed in a educated manner and initiate a phone call to S&W for the facts ?
 
Waspinator said:
I've been a machinist for a long time.. heck, been at my custom job shop since 96', I did my apprenticeship in tool rooms and work now with CNCs and lasers. Looking at the OP's picture... I'm just scratching my head trying to figure out how those tooling marks were put in.
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Not being a machinist, but being fairly intelligent and knowing how things work, I've been scratching my head too, and waiting for someone with a valid explanation. The marks seem to continue from the lands to the grooves with marks on the side of the lands too? Almost like it was polished with a wire brush harder than the barrel material. Almost like it could it be lead fouling and those are the marks from the brass brush? Again, I'm baffled.

I too would send pics to S&W. Their customer service is better than that. I too would wait for conformation from them as to whether the gun is safe to shoot. I would think that grooves like that perpendicular to bullet travel would quickly contribute to severe fouling, whether lead or copper and not pnly degrade accuracy and performance, but increase the already high pressure even more.
 
If you in such a big hurry "My big thing is I don’t want to wait another 8 weeks" then demand a refund and go spend your money some ware else? What is so difficult here? What response did S&W give you yesterday when you contacted them?
 
Waspinator:

A few things that you may already know.

ECM is done by a non corrosive plug with the shape of a rifled bore locked into the bore. Corrosive chemicals are pumped through the bore and they burn out a mirror image of the inner plug. Leaves you with smooth rifling. The first time I heard about it general dynamics had started using it to bore artillery barrels. I don't believe that it is common in rifles, only handguns.

Nobody uses broaches anymore. those things were eliminated decades ago, and hook cut rifling is probably almost gone by now.

I have almost convinced myself that the thing was drilled, but not reamed to a sub caliber smooth bore. Drilling leaves spiral cuts as the thing works its way through. Reaming it with a straight flute reamer cleans off those ridges and cuts it to proper size. Then, the things are button swaged. The carbide button is bore sized and has grooves that are supposed to be land diameter. If a button swaged barrel that wasn't reamed smooth is processed, those rings from the drilling will not go away, they will just be compressed into a bore that is the proper size, but still covered inside with the marks of the drill.

https://absolutemachine.com/what-is-button-rifling/

There just can't be any other explanation for near microscopic apparently concentric grooves that cut across the inner surface of the barrel. They either forgot to ream or the reamer was wrong somehow.
 
I am told that the S&W PC barrels for these guns are actually made by an outside supplier called Lothar. They use a computer controller broaching method to create rifling.

At least this is what I have been told by others, which looking at this, may make some sense.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Walther uses buttons. Some of the larger companies use cold forging such as remington ruger and CZ for rifles. A broach is fine for running out handgun barrels because it doesn't need to be treated after the work is done. No forging or annealing to stabilize the compressed metal. A broach for rifling is far less expensive than they were even 20 years ago, the precision machining and materials have done so. Maybe some of them are diamond, cobalt, tungsten, not hardened carbon. A broach is a single pas and done unit like a button, but seriously, there's no reason to prefer a broached over button swaged.

Harold, a broach would not have left those marks, it is pushed or pulled through the barrel and cuts the steel out and drags it forward. First, that set of cutters would have eliminated the rings around the inside. Second, in almost EVERY case you would have found evidence of lengthwise scratching. There would be flakes and chips that get caught, or maybe nicks in the cutters.

A broach used to require dozens of individual hooks that were all hand set and required constant sharpening. they were only steel. It was a quicker way to rifle a gun than a single cutter but what gunsmith wanted to tie up his time in this? Only mass production has made it practical again. A smalll company that makes its own barrels is more likely to use button rifling. I can't prove this, but this is the only possible explanation that I can come up with. A poor job of reaming followed by a poor job of rifling.
 
If it belonged to me and this was the only problem involved, I would consider fire lapping the bore to see if the rings are removed.
 
Im wondering if those marks are the result from some type of internal expanding mandrel that is used as fixturing for a machining operation ?
 
That barrel AIN'T RIGHT!!!! Make S&W replace or refund. I took some pics of my 460 Performance Center barrel. My barrel has maybe 50 rounds down it and it's smooth as glass, no tool marks or anything, just a little copper which is perfectly normal.
 

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My barrel has maybe 50 rounds down it and it's smooth as glass, no tool marks or anything...
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I see faint traces of lines like those in the OP's bore pic.

Pic 1 at around 4:30, and pic 3 around 8-9:00.
 
Carmady said:
I see faint traces of lines like those in the OP's bore pic.

Pic 1 at around 4:30, and pic 3 around 8-9:00.
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I looked at the pics again and even ran the scope down the barrel again, I see no such lines. Maybe it's the picture quality making it look like that, I don't know.

Either way mine shoots well and looks nothing like the OPs barrel.
 
I haven't even had a chance to call them yet because I've been so busy at work, and I am usually working during the same hours they take phone calls. Hopefully I'll have time to do it tomorrow (probably not) or Friday.

I will keep everyone informed on the outcome.
 
The photo is incredible. Shooting lead down it would be dreadful! I'm not even certain how they could make a barrel like that! I have an off-the-shelf Model 686 and it's perfect. That you should have a Performance Center gun with those problems males me glad I didn't have a gun those guys screwed up! Weren't they supposed to make S&W guns better?

Getting them on the phone sounds like a good idea. The idea is to make them send you a fabulous gun in return and get them to inspect the damn gun before returning it. And for that you need a commitment from a manager.


Smith & Wesson is one of the best gun makers of
all time, and, in its prime, also made some of the
world's most beautiful revolvers. This 629 was
virtually perfect, and it was flawless!

Surely the Performane Center has a manager. And he's the one you need to talk to. If you've sent the gun in twice, they should certainly feel a certain amount of shame o over the matter. I remember one time I bought a beautiful stainless steel Virginia Dragoon. Not a fancy gun by any standards. The first time I shot it, second shot, the hammer crystallized and shattered like glass. It was just a screw-up of the metallurgy. The thing I remember was how nice the people were at Interarms. I drove to their place in Alexandria, Virginia, and they fixed it for me overnight. Can't imagine an expensive gun at the S&W Performance Center! I world expect them to be very apologetic, especially with a barrel that looked and sounded like a zipper!

I'd send the photo first, then talk to the PC manager. Then I'd ask him what I was looking at, and how a barrel could be manufactured like that! I've bought a lot of S&W guns and most of them were perfect. Even the autos. The first generation autos were astoundingly bad and gave the company a black eye, but my second and third generation guns were great. The only issue was on a 659 9mm model. The backside of the gun, on top, was uneven, and was a bit higher on the left than the right; however, it shot reliably, and accurately. It was just unsightly. And it was one of my favorite guns. I owned two others of the same model. Still do. But I got rid of it and kept the other two. Just found it distracting.

Please let us know what happens. I hope they make things right.

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I'm not even certain how they could make a barrel like that!
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My thoughts exactly. I dont know how that could be done, I mean if you wanted to. The radial ridges down in the grooves like that? On top of the lands, common, but; down in the grooves, weird?
 
Email the CEO you will get referred to the executive complaint staff. They will take care of you. Tell them you want the new gun you paid for in perfect condition, or a full refund of your purchase price and other costs.
 
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