Illegals: Should Assets and Profits Be Seized?

yea yea yea i know, most are hard working people just looking for a better life, well alot of them arent too. you cannot tell me that if ALL of the illegals were to be deported(and kept out), that we wouldnt be better off.
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I'll tell you that and more. If all illegal immigrants vanished tomorrow into thin air, the US economy would be smashed. You can't lose a few million laborers, then replace them with laborers who charge (if you're lucky) three times to five times the rate, and expect your standard of living to stay the same. Your problem is that you cannot understand the concept of labor adding value. All you see is, illegals get money, therefore, that's money out of "our" pockets. This is not the case. They are paid because the work they do is worth more than what they are paid to the employer.

If costs go up and everything else stays equal, standard of living goes down.
 
Ayyy, now there's the rub....

"If costs go up and everything else stays equal...."

Taxes, health care, and housing, to start with would all reflect the drop in demand; and citizens might even hear English spoken again..... :D
 
"All you see is, illegals get money, therefore, that's money out of "our" pockets. This is not the case. They are paid because the work they do is worth more than what they are paid to the employer." that IS the case. who do you think is paying for the healthcare and educations for these people and thier often large familys? the taxpayers. you do know that many illegals are pain under the table,cash money. no taxes paid. hey thats a pretty sweet deal, where do i sign up for that?
 
shootinstudent - of course the illegals can't vanish tomorrow..... what a silly assertion.

The problem took time to become as large as it has.... therefore the logical solution is a plan that, in time, corrects the problem.

No one is assuming that umpteen million jobs are unfilled tomorrow.

The problem at hand, however, is still as ridiculous and for that I defer to 9mmSoopys description of the problem.
 
Trip20:

provide a plausible scenario for maintaining the current standard of living, minus all illegal immigrants. Then you will see what is wrong with 9mmsnoopy's idea.
 
shootingstudent, i gather that you must be a pretty young guy in his teens or early 20's, so you dont know any better, youve never lived an America that wasnt overrun with illegals. trust me on this, the standard of living,not to mention, crime,traffic,etc... were all better 20 years ago before the mexicanization of America got started. as i said earlier, all of the "grunt work" jobs got done back in those days. you seem to think America would fall to pieces without the 12 plus million illegals that are here now with more coming every day. these aint rocket scientists and brain surgeons coming over here, every single one of them are uneducated, the smart ones dont need to come, they figured out a way to make a good life in mexico.
 
9mmsnoopy,


Take a look through here and tell me how things are worse now than they were in 1980: http://www.bls.gov/data/home.htm

Snoopy, what you're missing is that there aren't many american born young folk these days like there were in the past. The demographic is changing. The baby boomers did not have many kids, and the population is declining because of it. That means more old people, and fewer young people, relative to each other. So the fact that you think there were enough kids to do the grunt work back 20 years ago, does not mean there are enough new workers to do it now.
 
was a radio talk show on this morning that was discussing illegals and employment. one guy called in and said he owns a construction business, he went on to say that he does indeed hire illegals and that they are paid an average of 10 to 15 bucks an hour. you cannot tell me that there are not Americans out there who wouldnt do those jobs for that kind of coin. 15 bucks an hour is a pretty good payday, a person can take pretty decent care of himself and family making 15 an hour. this guy also said that the reason he hires them is they are better workers. i think thats a bunch of crap. if the mexicans were such ambitious and dedicated go getters then they wouldnt need to come to America.

mexico is not a 3rd world country, they have resourses there, if the people of mexico arent using them, well whos fault is that? vicente fox is just loving that 13 BILLION thats being sent back to mexico from illegals living here.
 
Mexico may not be a 3rd world country but it is run like a 3rd world country.

As far as pay rates go, the onion pickers hired in S. Texas usually get around 10 bucks an hour illegal or not. Many Citizens just don't want to do that kind of stoop labor for anywhere even near that price. It happens. They don't hire illegals just for the cheap wages, in many cases it is their work ethic which tends to outshine a legal worker that gets them hired.
 
Shootinstudent,

Snoopy, what you're missing is that there aren't many [A]merican born young folk these days like there were in the past. The demographic is changing. The baby boomers did not have many kids, and the population is declining because of it. That means more old people, and fewer young people, relative to each other. So the fact that you think there were enough kids to do the grunt work back 20 years ago, does not mean there are enough new workers to do it now.
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I would argue that what you are missing is the advantages technology provides. Allow me to use a small example to illustrate:
In years past cotton had to be picked by hand, a very labor intensive process. As technology advanced, machines were developed that allowed less labor and higher productivity. In the days of my parents and grandparents, cotton producers had to hire many individuals during harvest in order to bring in their crops. Today, a single cotton farmer can harvest in a single day more than an entire field of workers could have in a week. As all things economic, prices dictated the need for the allocation of resources to improve harvesting methods for cotton.

Products such as tomatoes are still harvested primarily by hand, in part because illegal immigrants have interfered with the free market. They have established a price ceiling on labor (albeit unwittingly), which has kept the price of labor for tomato picking low enough to keep the necessarily innovation that would have occurred had the market for tomato harvesters progressed in an uninhibited way. We now find ourselves in the position always found when price controls are implemented. The solution isn’t to continue with the price control. Unfortunately, removing price controls often involves short-term swings in price towards the other direction. My personal assessment is that the removal of illegal immigrants would be slowly enough to minimize this impact, but even if I am incorrect in this assumption, the need to remove illegal aliens remains, if for no other reason than to establish true market forces in our economy again.
 
ahenry,

How is it a price ceiling that workers are used over machines? If the machines were cheaper than immigrant labor, no rational businessman would refuse to use them. And even when machinery does roll around that makes a process more efficient, it's still cheaper to use fewer immigrant laborers where the remaining need exists. We most definitely have today a price system of allocating resources to the problem.

What would be an interference with free trade would be restricting business's choices in the labor market. If you bar a source of labor to agricultural business, then you've restricted its ability to choose the most efficient method of production.
 
How is it a price ceiling that workers are used over machines? If the machines were cheaper than immigrant labor, no rational businessman would refuse to use them.
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Workers being used rather than technology is not a price control. The price control that has occurred here is the restriction of the normal change in the market for labor. This normal change has been artificially controlled by the illegal entry of laborers that forced the market price for labor to be lower, or rise a slower rate, than it would have been had the illegal laborers not entered the market. As prices increase in a given market, in this case the market for labor, it leads to various outcomes, one of which is technological advances. By artificially keeping the price of labor lower than it would have been had there been no illegal immigration the price incentive to innovate has been stifled leading to a higher cost of labor (American labor) and no offsetting advances in technology. The only real long term solution is to eliminate the price control; either by eliminating the black market of illegal immigration by eliminating (as much as possible) illegal immigration, or by opening the border completely, thereby allowing a truly free flow of labor across our borders. For a myriad of reasons the latter solution is impossible, leaving us with one alternative.
 
This normal change has been artificially controlled by the illegal entry of laborers that forced the market price for labor to be lower, or rise a slower rate, than it would have been had the illegal laborers not entered the market.
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How is this "arfiticial" or a control? No one forces business to hire illegal immigrants. The reason they change the price is that they do enter. If you want to restrict the labor market, then you do things to stop that...but they enter in the first place because business freely chooses to hire them.

It would be an artificial control to bar entry to the market, not to permit it.
 
NOW you've lost it........the credibility of your rationale is shot. By your admission, illegal methods of production are valid and allowable in the marketplace, 'cause businesses voluntarily choose to engage them......ergo, there is no such thing as illegal business practises; why even bother to pass child labor laws????? Seems that apparently "illegal" means anything but....
 
Citizen,

Using labor is not an "illegal method of production." The individual has no right to work, but the process is the same no matter who is doing the work.

And yes, child labor laws are an artificial control on the operation of the market. Clearly so. Some regulations are good. My point was to respond to ahenry's idea that illegal immigration was holding up techonological development "artificially." Immigrant labor provides a more cost-effective method, obviously, than any alternative in some industries. That's not artificial. If, for example, companies were forced to spend billions to make robots that could do all the work, when there were another option that they were not allowed to exercise, that would be a result produced by artificial limits on the market.

Good and bad are different from "artificial" and free market. A truly free market does not recognize borders, because it's about letting businesses decide what they want to pay for.
 
why even bother to pass child labor laws?????
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Uh- because children by their very nature cannot decide for themselves to make life altering choices. Adults, either illegal or legal can make a consensual decision to work and for how much. Similarly anybody who cannot enter into a contract cannot enter into a labor relationship.

One clearly is not the equal to the other.
 
On impulse I am tempted to say yes; but asset forfeiture is such an abused concept I think before it is extended anywhere else it's other wrongful applications need to be brought to heel first. In all cases it should only be used against property owned by persons actually convicted of a crime.
 
How is this "arfiticial" or a control? No one forces business to hire illegal immigrants…It would be an artificial control to bar entry to the market, not to permit it.
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I am really not trying to be rude here, but honestly, you need to go study some economics. I’ll try one last time to explain it: For a myriad of reasons we as a nation do not have a completely free flow of labor from other nations, we require certain things to occur in order for a foreigner to enter our labor market. Even if we minimized those requirements there would still be restrictions on foreigners entering our labor market. I’m not going to list the reasons we do this, and just stipulate that it is so. By laborers entering the market outside of the law, they have kept the price of labor below what it would have risen to over time. As I explained before, this price control has kept the innovation from occurring that would have occurred had the labor market been able to advance at the rate it should have.

A truly free market does not recognize borders, because it's about letting businesses decide what they want to pay for.
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It’s debatable whether a “truly free market” requires open borders, but the belief that an open border is better for a nation is what differentiates our views. I mean no disrespect, but if you honestly believe America would be better off with completely open border than you are a fool.
 
if my jumbo jack cost me a quarter more because the tomato growers couldnt hire ILLEGALS , i would GLADLY pay that. i guarantee you right now, if there was a tomato farm in my town, and they were going to pay me 10 bucks an hour to do so, i would snatch that up quickly as a second job. Americans WILL do that job for 10 bucks an hour. wouldnt you rather pick tomatos for 10 than flip burgers for minimum wage?

it wont be long when American teens wont be able to find jobs at mcdonalds,etc... go in a jack in the box and see whos working there. "do you want fries with your yumbo yak"
 
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