Illegal Aliens: This just keeps getting more and more militant by the day
- Thread starter Doug.38PR
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Antipitas, thank you for bringing a little civility into this discourse. The issue is sovereignty. Do we have the right to defend our country against invasion? If destroying a country's flag and raising your own (on federal property, no less) does'nt constitute invasion, what does?
badbob
badbob
all i am hearing around houston is how the katrina evacuees have caused the crime rate to skyrocket, they definately have played a part in it, but its a drop in the bucket compared to the crime caused by the ILLEGALS.
i propose a new organization be started--- LUWAC
thats League of United White American Citizens. why not? hispanics have LULAC, which is as racist an organization as they come, so whats fair is fair right?
i propose a new organization be started--- LUWAC
thats League of United White American Citizens. why not? hispanics have LULAC, which is as racist an organization as they come, so whats fair is fair right?
JuanCarlos
New member
Well, if the government of Mexico had sent these guys to do it, then maybe it would be invasion. As it is, it's disorderly conduct and destruction of federal property. "Invasion" is just a nice strong word to use for rhetorical purposes. They're just immigrants looking for a way to make some money. If we let them in legally, maybe more would bring their families, settle down, assimilate in to the culture more readily, and be less likely to participate in demonstrations such as this one.
Because whites are, in most places, still the majority...and in those places where they aren't technically the majority, they are far from a downtrodden minority*. They are in less need of a group to look out for their interests than a minority. Yes, it seems unfair. However, try actually being a minority sometime...it sucks more.
Besides which, nobody is stopping you from forming such an organization...but good luck getting membership, as whites generally won't be drawn as quickly to such a group due to their lack of need for one.
* - Having to press "1" for English does not constitute being "downtrodden."
"Because whites are, in most places, still the majority...and in those places where they aren't technically the majority, they are far from a downtrodden minority*. They are in less need of a group to look out for their interests than a minority. Yes, it seems unfair. However, try actually being a minority sometime...it sucks "
true, in most places whites may have the most numbers, but thats changing daily. Los Angeles, Houston,etc.. some of the largest cities are now having hispanics in the majority. hey, nothing wrong with that if it happens naturally, but thats not the case, its because of the millions of illegals who are here now with more coming every day.
what exactly is a minority these days anyway? theres no more slavery in this country, everyones born free and only ones own stupidity can change that. every American has the same opportunity as the next to make something of themselves. so tell me how being a minority as you say "sucks" i can sure see how it would have sucked 40 years ago, but things have changed for the better.
the pro illegal people always use the same arguement, if your against illegals your "a racist". thats ALL they have got. its rediculous and pathetic.
i dont care what race they are, latin from mexico,asian from china,black from nigeria or white from ireland, if they cant do it the right way, we dont need them here.
true, in most places whites may have the most numbers, but thats changing daily. Los Angeles, Houston,etc.. some of the largest cities are now having hispanics in the majority. hey, nothing wrong with that if it happens naturally, but thats not the case, its because of the millions of illegals who are here now with more coming every day.
what exactly is a minority these days anyway? theres no more slavery in this country, everyones born free and only ones own stupidity can change that. every American has the same opportunity as the next to make something of themselves. so tell me how being a minority as you say "sucks" i can sure see how it would have sucked 40 years ago, but things have changed for the better.
the pro illegal people always use the same arguement, if your against illegals your "a racist". thats ALL they have got. its rediculous and pathetic.
i dont care what race they are, latin from mexico,asian from china,black from nigeria or white from ireland, if they cant do it the right way, we dont need them here.
"Having to press "1" for English does not constitute being "downtrodden"
downtrodden? no. highly aggravated? yes
ive been to mexico, they dont cower and cater to foriegners there. nor would i expect them too, so why should we cater to them. there shouldnt be anything printed in a foriegn language here except foriegn language school books. most LEGAL immigrants will speak atleast some english before they ever get here, so all of this 1 for english 2 for spanish is all for the benefit of a bunch of people who SNUCK into the country.
if you sneak into mexico you get arrested. enough said.
downtrodden? no. highly aggravated? yes
ive been to mexico, they dont cower and cater to foriegners there. nor would i expect them too, so why should we cater to them. there shouldnt be anything printed in a foriegn language here except foriegn language school books. most LEGAL immigrants will speak atleast some english before they ever get here, so all of this 1 for english 2 for spanish is all for the benefit of a bunch of people who SNUCK into the country.
if you sneak into mexico you get arrested. enough said.
JuanCarlos, it doesn't have to be sanctioned by the Mexican government to be an invasion. It is a mass of people coming up here and taking over our country changing our culture and laws and customs. Yes many of them just want to make money, but they are de facto being used in the midst of all of this.
BUT, the Mexican government DOES sanction this as they have stated over and over that they want these people coming north. They want the money they send back. They want their vote up here to get their kind of people in office who will support Mexico and (eventually) de jure or de facto make the Southwest a part of Mexico. They have guidebooks and supplies to help them come north. They give out notice of where smugglers can be found to pick them up in the southwestern deserts
Your concern for those who just want to make money is touching, however misplaced. Instead of condenming the U.S. for "not paying them enough" etc. you should be condemning the Mexican ruling elite who economically force them to come up here and leave their country. In short, the Mexican elite want to live off of our wealth
BUT, the Mexican government DOES sanction this as they have stated over and over that they want these people coming north. They want the money they send back. They want their vote up here to get their kind of people in office who will support Mexico and (eventually) de jure or de facto make the Southwest a part of Mexico. They have guidebooks and supplies to help them come north. They give out notice of where smugglers can be found to pick them up in the southwestern deserts
Your concern for those who just want to make money is touching, however misplaced. Instead of condenming the U.S. for "not paying them enough" etc. you should be condemning the Mexican ruling elite who economically force them to come up here and leave their country. In short, the Mexican elite want to live off of our wealth
JuanCarlos
New member
9mmsnoopy said:
Only in Horatio Alger stories. As it is the socioeconomic class you're born into has a lot to do with what opportunities are open to you [EDIT: notice I didn't say everything. Yes, there are still people who manage to break out of their starting socioeconomic status. But I have to argue that it isn't always simply a matter of choice]. And the class many minorities are born into is, even today, still influenced by the racism that was rampant decades ago. Then there are the more subtle effects of the racism that is still prevelant in society, and institutional racism in the justice system. Everybody may technically be equal now in the eyes of the law, but in reality it doesn't tend to work out that way.
Of course, this isn't supposed to be a discussion on still-lingering racism that is present in this country. You want one, go ahead and start one...I'll be there. But before we do...
Have I used this argument? I'm a pro-legal person, and I don't think I have. I've just asserted that our country has had a long history of taking in immigrants and that perhaps our current immigration policies should be relaxed somewhat, especially as applies to allowing Mexicans a way to find legal work here. Moving along again...
Yes, most legal immigrants will speak at least some English. However, for many it is not their primary language. Thus a company might find they gain a significant Latino marketshare by providing Spanish-language assistance. You're making the assumption that only illegal immigrants are using the Spanish-language assistance...or that only illegals need it. You're wrong...there are plenty of legal immigrants with substandard English skills compared to Spanish.
Doug.38PR said:
Changing our culture and customs...and this is by default a bad thing? The Germans, Italians, and Chinese did the same, and America still seems to be chugging along. What is the downside of Mexican influence on our customs and culture? More taco stands?
Yes, there is the issue of becoming a bilingual society and the headaches it brings...just ask Canada. However, that is something that can be remedied by actually declaring an official language and enforcing it...or possibly through alternate means. Either way, the other waves of immigrants didn't come off the boat knowing English either...it takes a generation or two for that to take hold.
There is also a personal fear of mine that Catholic church will have more influence in our government...then again, I don't think that's any worse than the Protestant (particularly Evangelical) influence you're seeing now. However, as long as we continue to fight to defend the first ammendment, that's a problem that can be solved as well.
Our country has absorbed several other cultures over the centuries...I fail to see how the Mexican culture is somehow "worse" or more harmful to society than they were.
That, and American business (and indeed American consumers) want to live off the backs of cheap Mexican (and Indian, and Chinese) labor, while making damn sure those same people can't get into our country thus providing competition with the factories they are opening (or contracting with) there.
Also note again that if we actually allowed more Mexicans to come in legally, they'd bring their families instead of sending the money back home. Those families would be voting not in favor of Mexican interests, but in their interests as citizens.
Seriously, I fail to see how a drastic increase in legal Mexican immigration would really harm this country (rather than simply "change" it). Not enough jobs? Open factories here instead of in Mexico. Lowered wages for American workers? They're already competing with Mexicans (and Indians, and Chinese)...at least this way the workers they're competing with would also be paying US taxes. Cultural change? Covered it. Whites becoming a minority? Explaining exactly how that is necessarily a "bad" thing should be reserved for the racism thread, methinks.
I know it certainly isn't lack of space...half of Mexico could move just to my state and it'd still be no more densely populated than California.
Also, back to our original subject, do you think as many Mexicans would still retain their allegiance to Mexico (leading to demonstrations like the one above) if we actually let them be Americans? No right or wrong answers, really...we can't know for sure because we refuse to try it. I suspect no. Within a generation or two they'd become loyal Americans just like the Chinese, Germans, Italians, etc. before them.
Having lived the majority of my 66 years within 30 minutes of the Mexican border, having Mexican relatives, having spent a reasonable amount of time in Mexico, I know the entire Mexican political and legal mess is criminal, from Zorro [Fox], right down to the neighbor hood watchman.
It has been very sickening to see the absolute corruption of Mexico spread into the U.S.
U.S. side politicians and law enforcement are rapidly becoming Mexcanized, it is just a matter of time until this side on the border is as corrupt as the Mexican side, seems that town in Arizona is already there.
The people coming over without legal authorization are most definately "Criminal Alien Invaders", it is an affront to truth to claim otherwise.
Just consult a dictionary for the defination of the 3 words.
I am amazed at the number of people who do not support the Constitution and the laws of the land.
It has been very sickening to see the absolute corruption of Mexico spread into the U.S.
U.S. side politicians and law enforcement are rapidly becoming Mexcanized, it is just a matter of time until this side on the border is as corrupt as the Mexican side, seems that town in Arizona is already there.
The people coming over without legal authorization are most definately "Criminal Alien Invaders", it is an affront to truth to claim otherwise.
Just consult a dictionary for the defination of the 3 words.
I am amazed at the number of people who do not support the Constitution and the laws of the land.
Am I the only one that's noticed that the Pro-USA protests are populated mainly by women, elderly people, and the infirm? I suspect that that's because the younger, stronger, men are trying to earn the money to support themselves, their families, and the illegal scum that sponge off of America. I wonder how eager they would be to assault a group of men that were capable of defending themselves?
That is one HELLUVA good point!!
Or are these illegals going to actually claim that the original inhabitants of central and south America spoke SPANISH?! :barf:
It's amazing that we can't simply point out something as basic as that and have them slink away in the utter defeat that should truly be theirs. Their position is utterly bankrupt intellectually, morally, legally...
We are in a world of *&#! when the POLICE will not even ARREST anyone despite having BOTTLES THROWN AT THEM WHEN THEY TRY TO RESTORE ORDER!! :MAD:
WTF is going ON, people?!
-azurefly
juancarlos said:
Okay, fine. My family immigrated in the 20th century from Poland and Russia. They had nothing to do with "theft" of land from native Americans -- so any of these Mexicans claiming that I should have to give restitution or whatever to "natives" can just shut up. At least, anyone who wants to claim that being "Mestizo" exonerates them from having stolen land from native Mexicans.
They have their reason for ducking culpability for the theft of Mexican land by Spanish conquerers. I have my perfectly valid reason for saying that I had NOTHING to do with stealing the Indians' land over a century before my family ever got here.
-azurefly
JuanCarlos
New member
drinks said:
Looked them up (just to be sure), and I wasn't impressed. By those same definitions every last immigrant to this country, including your ancestors (assuming you aren't full-blooded Native) were "alien invaders." Consult my other posts if you're curious why putting "criminal" on the front doesn't make it any more impressive to me.
EDIT: Also, what town in Arizona were you talking about?
juancarlos said:
Well, obviously someone born to wealthy parents is better off than someone born to working-class stiffs, jc, and has more, or better, opportunities open to him.
But the point is, there is no more institutionalized, legal discrimination in the U.S. ANYWHERE it can be found, it is ILLEGAL -- and there are abundant resources for anyone who is victimized by illegal discrimination to get help taking it to court and quashing it.
So, what's your major point above? Are you really complaining about the fact that different people's backgrounds and family histories result in different levels of good things in their lives??
That's LIFE.No one OWES anyone born into a "low" socioeconomic class a free ride down a paved road to success -- only the opportunity to travel that road on their own merit and effort.
Should government be taking wealth from those who have it and reapportioning it so that it doesn't make any difference whether your parents busted their humps to provide for you to go to good schools, live in a nice area with little crime, or be given good food, clothes, cars...and your neighbor's parents did not? No longer should the good things that people get to enjoy be theirs because they worked for them (or even just because they lucked into them)?
The poor family down the street, who didn't value education, who blew money they could have saved or invested on beer, chrome rims, overpowered stereos, gold "grilles", who did not insist that their kids work hard in school -- they have the right to complain that their kids don't have "opportunity," can't go to top colleges, are not employable? And they have the right to have government take from your family to give to them just because your family made good choices and succeeded?
Where in the hell does this theory of entitlement come from?
-azurefly
The problem with this is that it does not stand up to history. What is going on is you have two different cultures, languages, races and religions clashing together. This breeds conflict. This is something multiculturalists don't understand. On one hand they see everybody equal and should be able to live together (forcably in some cases), and on the other they want everybody to be different and tolerated in spite of all their learned and natural differences. You mention the Germans and Italians etc. Well, the difference between them is that they were always a minority (even to this day) and they were concentrated primarily in the big cities and/or scattered in little pockets of the midwest with a few pockets in areas of the South like Virginia and Texas. To some extent or another they were ultimately assimilated in American culture because they were a minority. But even they had their conflicts with the dominate culture in America (German Unionists during the War Between the States who didn't understand the old State's Rights concept and were influenced by the Enlightenment and were part of the failed German centralization efforts of the 1840s for example) and had seperated in their own subcultures in their own neighborhoods and counties. This created gang problems and the problems gangs bring (Gangs of New York provided a good illustration of this not to mentioned the Russian and Italian moffia of the 20th century) Now, take a people from a contiguous country like Mexico who are flooding into the country faster and over a FAR shorter period of time than any immigrant group in history....so much so that that within 10-20 years they can become a majority in most of Texas and the southwest and you have dynamite waiting to go off. What you are doing is putting two different countries in one and that will ultimately, in one way or another, lead to war. The 100 years War between England and France was a result of a situation just like this between English serfs and barons taking up title and lands in France clashing with the French and gaining more influence in France. 100 years of bloody conflict. I'd hate to see such a thing happen here
contender6030
New member
I really can't believe some of the BU!!$#it that has been spewed in this thread. We are being invaded by a people that want to take over our country and turn it into an annex of Mexico! Just because they are not using guns and tanks makes it any less of an invasion. They are doing it little by little hoping that the "higher ups" won't pay attention to a few at a time. They have made it clear they want nothing to do with becoming American! Mark my words, unless someting drastic is done AMERICANS will become the minority!
JuanCarlos
New member
See, now you've made an interesting point. Yes, Mexicans are immigrating at a rate much higher than any previous groups (both in raw numbers, obviously, and also as a percentage of total US population). I suppose this would indeed lead to much less assimilation on their part, as their superior numbers would make it much less neccessary. So rather than them becoming more like us, the entire nation might culturally become a bit more like them.
I have yet to see, however, an objective explanation as to why an increased Mexicanization of the US would be a "bad" thing. Are we suggesting that the corruption in their government, or the poverty in their nation, are some kind of inherent cultural or racial trait? It basically depends on our attitudes towards them as the dominant culture (which you touched on with the gang violence involving German immigrants)...if we accept the change willingly, it actually might not be all that bad. More taco stands and increased bilingualism really can't be defined objectively as "bad." Though again, I'm not a fan of the latter. Yeah, it'd be a big change, and that's always scary when you're in the majority.
Of course, all this only applies to increased legal immigration...as long as we keep "forcing" them to come illegally (yes, I know they are not forced to come...but if they do want to come, they are pretty much forced to do so illegally), then we'll most definitely still have all the same problems we have now (failing to identify themselves as American, poverty, crime, etc.)
contender6030 said:
Do you see how you've added pretty much nothing to the conversation here? You've also, again, failed to address objectively why AMERICANS (by which I assume you mean white Americans, or at least non-Latino Americans) becoming a minority is a bad thing.
I hate to dump cold hard fact on your statement, but .....
Germans are the largest single ethnic group to immigrate to the US to date, with about 8 million entering the country. Germans are the most widely distributed ethnic group in the US, with 6 million people of German descent living in CA and PA alone. According to the 2000 census 43 million people claim German descent, more than any other ethnic group.
But don't take my word for it. Here's a map.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County.jpg
im with you(obviously) contender. rock on.
its out of control. in houston and many other places, police will not inquire into anyones citizenship status, pablo from mexico can cause a wreck, have no license or insurance, and not speak a word of english, the cops wont touch him. its a sanctuary policy. police chief will say "its a federal law, not our jobs to enforce it" well the drug laws are federal too chief, but if a cop sees someone sitting on his porch smoking a joint, hes damn well going to enforce that law. so whats the difference?
its out of control. in houston and many other places, police will not inquire into anyones citizenship status, pablo from mexico can cause a wreck, have no license or insurance, and not speak a word of english, the cops wont touch him. its a sanctuary policy. police chief will say "its a federal law, not our jobs to enforce it" well the drug laws are federal too chief, but if a cop sees someone sitting on his porch smoking a joint, hes damn well going to enforce that law. so whats the difference?
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