If you don't learn from history...

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feel that government has no business in marriage in the first place. It's a contract between people, not people and government. Mormoms frequently marry children though they skate by the legal issues by not bothering to mention it to the state. Marrying a couch? Why is that's one of the first places y'all go? Is a couch an adult capable of making a sound decision? Is an animal an adult capable of making a sound decision? I guess if you allow gays to marry then maybe black will one day be marrying whites. oh no!

Problem is it is not a right---it is a privledge that is granted buy getting a license, thus Government. With that marriage comes entitlements such as death benefits etc...I'm not sure what you are saying about marrying kids---are you OK with it or not? Grant these benefits to polygamists as well? Entitlements? Every alternative lifestyle would have to be given the same as Gays.

The fetus is not infused with blood until the circulatory system has developed which happens around the third week. If blood = life then conception != life. I don't like abortion but I don't believe neither science nor religion has the authority to determine the point when life exists and thus government has no authority to control what happens to a fetus.

There are numerous religious scriptures that indicate life begins at conception(I won't list them all)---that aside I can't know for sure and neither can you. Most people however argue FOR abortion in the first trimester, which is well beyond heartbeat, vital organs, blood, brain waves etc...so religion aside I'm still against 1st trimester abortions---not because of my religion but the facts I stated. I know some people hate the arguement but IF I'm right and it does begin at conception and they are wrong and we discover this 10 years from now(scientifically)---what do you say? Sorry?
 
Problem is it is not a right---it is a privledge that is granted buy getting a license, thus Government. With that marriage comes entitlements such as death benefits etc...I'm not sure what you are saying about marrying kids---are you OK with it or not? Grant these benefits to polygamists as well? Entitlements? Every alternative lifestyle would have to be given the same as Gays.
It's only a priveldge because racism created the marriage license to prevent freed slaves from marrying whites.

I have no interest in marrying a 16 year old but there are states in which 16 is legally old enough for consentual sex and marriage. I don't want any entitlements for anyone. No married person should get any kind of tax break that a single person does not get. The bottom line is that marriage is an agreement between people, not between people and governments.

There are numerous religious scriptures that indicate life begins at conception(I won't list them all)---that aside I can't know for sure and neither can you. Most people however argue FOR abortion in the first trimester, which is well beyond heartbeat, vital organs, blood, brain waves etc...so religion aside I'm still against 1st trimester abortions---not because of my religion but the facts I stated. I know some people hate the arguement but IF I'm right and it does begin at conception and they are wrong and we discover this 10 years from now(scientifically)---what do you say? Sorry?
I know those other passages. My point is that there's too much conflicting information from both camps that neither one has the leg up to claim it knows when life begins.

Even if it's proven that life begins at conception I still don't believe the government has any authority to get involved. Until birth that fetus is a part of the woman's body and her choice to do with as she pleases. Doesn't make me happy but I would rather put the choice in a woman's hands than in the government's. Anything less assumes that government owns every human life, not the individuals themselves.
 
I have no interest in marrying a 16 year old but there are states in which 16 is legally old enough for consentual sex and marriage. I don't want any entitlements for anyone. No married person should get any kind of tax break that a single person does not get. The bottom line is that marriage is an agreement between people, not between people and governments.

I know what some states laws are---not my question. Are you for Nambla being able to marry a child for example? Polygamists? You are in the huge minority when it comes to pro Gay Marriage WITHOUT entitlements---big difference in people's minds. If what you say is true--then you can get married in a ceremony and get married---just not according to the state----which is where entitlements come into play. You can make any agreement you want---government won't stop you, but when you ask for entitlements is where the problem(for others) comes in.
 
I know what some states laws are---not my question. Are you for Nambla being able to marry a child for example?
Define child. A 17 year old the day before his 18th birthday is considered a child in some states while in others he was no longer a child after his 15th birthday.
Polygamists?
Doesn't hurt me, why should I care? One dude marrying three women does not affect me. AT ALL. One chick marrying three guys does not affect me. AT ALL.

You are in the huge minority when it comes to pro Gay Marriage WITHOUT entitlements---big difference in people's minds. If what you say is true--then you can get married in a ceremony and get married---just not according to the state----which is where entitlements come into play. You can make any agreement you want---government won't stop you, but when you ask for entitlements is where the problem(for others) comes in.
What entitlements are you referring to? Feel free to list them and tell me which ones you should get for marrying a woman but that I should be denied for marrying a man.
 
Define child. A 17 year old the day before his 18th birthday is considered a child in some states while in others he was no longer a child after his 15th birthday.

You seem to be avoiding the question. Say a 12 year old like NAMBLA wants---for it?

What entitlements are you referring to? Feel free to list them and tell me which ones you should get for marrying a woman but that I should be denied for marrying a man.

Make up your mind---first you say you don't want the Government involved then you say you want entitlements?:confused: Be it Veteran's benefits, SS claims, Marriage Tax breaks etc...

From the Gay & Lesbian Advocates and Defenders--
["Civil unions are a good first step, but they don't go far enough.... Gay and lesbian couples want and need what everyone else has—the right to receive the full protections bestowed by the state and federal government that come through marriage." /QUOTE]

So they DO want the government when convienient.:rolleyes: Bottom line, I personally believe marriage should be between a man and woman---as do a vast majority. It has been voted on numerous times. You want to get married to a man--go ahead--just don't expect the Government to give entitlements the people don't want. If you are entitled---then so is NAMBLA and so are Polygamists and so on...why stop with you.

Also make sure to illustrate how denying those entitlements to same-sex couples protects or strengthens your marriage.

Who said anything about strengthening or protecting my marriage?:confused: For me that comes thru God--I know you don't like to hear it but...
 
If that comes through God, why on earth do you insist on having the government muck with marriage in any way? Why not leave the whole thing between two people, their church, and God? Are you in favor of a government license or permission to engage in any of the other sacraments, too, or is marriage the only one that requires you to give God some legal backup?

If two people want to get married, then they will do so, regardless of the laws on the books. There's no power in the world that can prevent a guy and a girl, or two guys or two girls, to stick rings on each other's fingers and call each other "schnookums". That's not what this debate is about, and you know it just as well as I do.

What's at stake here is no "special right for gays", it's the right of some people to enforce their own religious preferences with the help of the State's guns. You claim the right, via proxy, to disallow financial and legal benefits to other people simply because you do not like their sexual preferences, even when their employers would have no issue with giving them those benefits.

It's all about you enforcing your own religious worldview on your neighbors via legislation and force of arms. It has nothing to do with marriage or morality or what have you, just with power and your inability to keep your nose out of other people's lives.

As for your NAMBLA argument--that's a red herring. Minors can't get married because they cannot enter into contracts, period. Once they reach the age of consent, why should it matter whether they consent to marry a same-sex partner or an opposite-sex one?

All that barking about "State's rights", and then you folks jump up and down with glee when some gay Congresscritter from Massachusetts dies, and his legal spouse (by MA law) can't collect his retirement benefits like any opposite-sex spouse, because there's a federal law pre-empting the State's laws. Will of the people...majority votes...State's rights...blah blah blah. It's all about whose ox gets gored, eh?

But be sure to scream long and loud the next time the Dems push a federal law through which pre-empts some of your favorite gun laws in your State.
 
You seem to be avoiding the question. Say a 12 year old like NAMBLA wants---for it?
I doubt a 12 year old is qualified to make an informed decision in any state, thus wouldn't be considered an adult and the argument is moot.

Make up your mind---first you say you don't want the Government involved then you say you want entitlements? Be it Veteran's benefits, SS claims, Marriage Tax breaks etc...
I don't want the government involved but I want to know which entitlements you believe that you deserve for marrying a woman that should inherently be denied from me for marrying a man.

So they DO want the government when convienient. Bottom line, I personally believe marriage should be between a man and woman---as do a vast majority. It has been voted on numerous times. You want to get married to a man--go ahead--just don't expect the Government to give entitlements the people don't want. If you are entitled---then so is NAMBLA and so are Polygamists and so on...why stop with you.
I don't want government involved in marriage. What a group of gay rights activitsts want is of little concern to me. At the end of the day the point remains that government does not need to be involved. Period.
 
You claim the right, via proxy, to disallow financial and legal benefits to other people simply because you do not like their sexual preferences, even when their employers would have no issue with giving them those benefits.
That's what I'm saying. Either give all married couples, gay or straight, the same benefits or give all married couple, gay or straight, no benefits. I still don't understand what entitlements are such a big deal but then again I really don't believe married folk should get any kind of tax breaks or some such just for getting married. If it's things like inheritance or power of attorney then I understand.
 
wow, ain't this fun?

1. Marriage, regardless of sexual inclination, is a STATE issue, not a Federal one.

2. Abortion, likewise, although the Supreme Court ruled otherwise, in violation of their authority (imagine that).

3. Independents? I'd like to see Strayhorn or Friedman win the Texas Governorship just to shake up the status quo (ain't gonna happen, but I can hope). On the other hand, Lieberman may very well win as an Independent in CT, and I hope to Hell he does. Regardless of whether I agree/disagree with his positions, he is the best hope for a third party candidate this election cycle. And you gotta start somewhere...
 
MOW asked:
... the last time you had to use your weapons against your Government was ???????
and the answer to that question is proof of exactly what? That you have never had to do so is not proof or even evidence that you may never need to do so.

Marko said:
... make sure to illustrate how denying those entitlements to same-sex couples protects or strengthens your marriage.
That may not be an objection. I don't think that my marriage, for example, is endangered by anyone's same sex marriage. My objection is to the legal recognition of a marital status that gives the same benefits to a same gender marriage that is recognized by our society and government to an opposite gender marriage. The legal recognition of that choice as a "marital union" would result in costs that we all would bear, even if we disagree with the union on moral grounds. The argument for same gender marriage is made on moral grounds, i.e., civil rights. I don't agree with that argument because I don't see the difference in this and the NEA using union dues to support an NEA-endorsed candidate for public office, when an individual member may not support that candidate. It is a use of personal contributions by the union to further their collective agenda to which certain individual members object. Costs to insurance companies may rise depending on the future trends in the spread of aids. That would result in a cost to many of us. But my biggest objection is the costs incurred by government at all levels by a category of spouses that are created by the stroke of a pen. Oila` ... you're a spouse! survivor's benefits? SSSI? Sure.

It is a case of unintended consequences, if I am not mistaken. The ramifications are not measured by the threat to my marriage. It can, however, be measured in other ways. See this article about Gerry E. Studds' (D-Mass.) surviving spouse's expectations as an example of my point about cost.

I have heard Neal Boortz use the same argument. It is not the point. Even though I may see it as a moral surrender, I don't formulate an objection on the grounds of a threat to traditional marriage.

It can be argued, though, that traditional marriage is weakened by the mere equation of a morally unacceptable version of marriage to the traditional version. They are not the same. A woman is not a man. So is this a bastardization of the term "marriage"? Why does the gay community choose to play marriage? The language is changing and this is psychological warfare. The objective is simply to get what you want ... and I mean in tangible terms. Legal protection. Call it marriage long enough and shout it loud enough and pretty soon ... it is marriage. Is this a perversion of the 14th Amendment?

'Guess I'm out of the closet on this one. By the way, to all who read this, as a moderator here, I still do not condone gay- or lesbian-bashing or name calling. Read my post carefully.
 
Marko's point was most cogently stated right here:
Are you in favor of a government license or permission to engage in any of the other sacraments, too, or is marriage the only one that requires you to give God some legal backup?

[snip]

What's at stake here is not "special right for gays", it's the right of some people to enforce their own religious preferences with the help of the State's guns.

And it IS a cogent point.

That said, I reserve the right to shut this one down once it fully swings from Constitutional debate to Gay or Religion debate.
Rich
 
Pertinent and relevant make cogent in my book and I agree.

My view is that "What's at stake here is not "special right for gays", it's the right of some people to enforce their own religious preferences with the help of the State's guns., may be restated as ""What's at stake here is not "special right for gays", it's the right of a minority to impose it's wishes on the majority, in the guise of civil liberty." If it's more than a mere wish to have their way, then many of us are wrong and don't realize it. I agree that the bone of contention is not one of religion. It's an argument of civil liberties. But I can't see the compulsion for this that is consensual across the board. It seems to be a small percentage of people on the scale of things that want more than general acceptance. It is the same approach that perverted Martin Luther King Jr's quest for "equal opportunity" into a guaranteed advantage.

Rich, how do you think of the argument concerning the quest for "legality" as it pertains to a step up in "privilege" or "legitimacy", if you will? (If that argument was made clear in my previous post.) I willingly take the traditional marriage argument off the table. But what about the additional, special spousal costs as a result of legitimacy given to gay and lesbian marriage? Is that not more burden to us than just letting people "be what they are" or "want to be"? Is that a legitimate, deserving and fair outcome for the rest of us?

I guess it comes down to this: Is not giving a minority group a special advantage, discrimination in the social sense? Is denying a minority group an advantage, merely for the asking, prejudicial?
 
Bud-
My post wasn't directed at yours, in particular. But Marko already answered your questions:

But what about the additional, special spousal costs as a result of legitimacy given to gay and lesbian marriage? Is that not more burden to us than just letting people "be what they are" or "want to be"? Is that a legitimate, deserving and fair outcome for the rest of us?
I have to assume you're talking about an economic benefit here.

Like Marko, I couldn't care less whether your roommate is a boy, a girl or Howard the Duck. But, when you start arguing about your special marriage deductions being somehow diminished by being granted to Joe-Bob, the couple, I stand up and say, "Hey, guys. What about me? I'm single. Always been that way, from a legal standpoint. You're BOTH taking MY tax dollars and you never heard a peep from me."

And so it is that we come back to (what I understand as) Marko's point:
Marriage is recognized by America's Government as having special Tax and Legal protections. Why? If you argue that it's because marriage sanctifies the relationship between a Man and a Woman, then government need grant it no special privilege. God has already done so. If you argue that it's because "coupleship" makes a stronger America, then gay and straights both deserve the special privilege, tax and retirement status.

In other words, as a pretty much neutral party, I've no problem with the greater legal benefits your wife receives over my girlfriend. But I would have a problem if you turned to me and said, "Well, Judy and I enjoy 'em; but you're not really in favor of Hank and Jim getting the same benefit, are you?"

Hell, yes, I am. Unless, of course, you'd be in favor of removing the State from the institution of marriage altogether. ;)
Rich
 
Marko---is it me or do you seem just a little bit hostile towards Christians?:rolleyes: I'm surprised that you aren't living somewhere in Europe---must be the guns that keep you here.;)

Bud gave you some really good answers along with the financial aspect. what do you want---it has been put to a vote and people don't want it. Democracy not good enough, maybe a Liberal judge can step in and usurp the laws----maybe even a Mayor in SF?!:barf:

why on earth do you insist on having the government muck with marriage in any way?

When did I insist. That's the way it is. So you don't won't the Government involved in marriage UNTIL it comes time for you to get benefits---then you like them?.

Minors can't get married

1. Neither can Gays legally.
2. Polygamy isn't legal----should they get benefits too. Where do you draw the line?

It's all about you enforcing your own religious worldview on your neighbors via legislation and force of arms.

I see, guess EVERYONE against it must be religous fanatics.:rolleyes: Doesn't explain such a large majority against it.

Here is something you in particular should read IMO---
http://www.janegalt.net/blog/archives/005244.html
 
then gay and straights both deserve the special privilege, tax and retirement status.

Why stop there? Polygamists would then be entitled as well, no? How about brothers and sisters who want to marry? Consenting adults no?
 
My favorite part of the blog-----


My only request is that people try to be a leeetle more humble about their ability to imagine the subtle results of big policy changes. The argument that gay marriage will not change the institution of marriage because you can't imagine it changing your personal reaction is pretty arrogant. It imagines, first of all, that your behavior is a guide for the behavior of everyone else in society, when in fact, as you may have noticed, all sorts of different people react to all sorts of different things in all sorts of different ways, which is why we have to have elections and stuff. And second, the unwavering belief that the only reason that marriage, always and everywhere, is a male-female institution (I exclude rare ritual behaviors), is just some sort of bizarre historical coincidence, and that you know better, needs examining. If you think you know why marriage is male-female, and why that's either outdated because of all the ways in which reproduction has lately changed, or was a bad reason to start with, then you are in a good place to advocate reform. If you think that marriage is just that way because our ancestors were all a bunch of repressed bastards with dark Freudian complexes that made them homophobic bigots, I'm a little leery of letting you muck around with it.
 
Lemme repeat myself:
That said, I reserve the right to shut this one down once it fully swings from Constitutional debate to Gay or Religion debate.

Thread closed.

And it's a shame, really. Could have been a really good debate about equality and the Constitution. Way to go, MoW. :rolleyes:
Rich
 
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