If you absolutely have to open carry...

[moga]

Seriously though. Most people are so oblivious that they don't even notice when your openly carrying until they're in a position that they can't possibly ignore it. That I know from experience.

Now as far as any tactical disadvantage to openly carrying. Most garden variety thugs would rather expose them selves to the least amount of risk possible when on the job. Which means that they go out of their way to avoid the armed citizen. OTOH, if you have stirred up the hornet's nest of MS-13 or Gulf Cartel syndicate members, etc. than that axiom may not ring true. But in most cases the last thing that the guy kicking in your door or trying to carjack you wants to find is the business end of your EDC. At first sight of it they haul ass. Can you count on that? No -- but if your not ready to go the full mile if that unfortunate combination of events comes to pass, well...you know the rest. But unequivocally I can say that the choice to carry openly has not a darned thing to do with intimidating anyone. That's just absolutely beside the point.

Although it was the offspring of a misunderstanding, I would respectfully like to reply to the idea of living in a bubble. I live in a major metropolitan city with a population of over 500k so I definitely don't live in a bubble. However, unless I absolutely need to, I don't frequent places and events that involve a high density of people per square meter. So in a manner of speaking, it's entirely possible to "live in a bubble" if you make decisions around the concern. Obviously it gets a lot easier as you move out of the concentric circles around US cities but I am pretty much be cognizant and have already sized up every person that comes within about ten feet of me. It's not even a conscious act anymore but something I do without thinking, like breathing. Even when carrying concealed I do this and always have. That's just a part of big city living that comes with habit. So is hand to hand skills.

 

[curt.45]

http://www.google.com/search?source...=1T4ACEW_enUS321US321&q=open+carry+in+indiana

info for Indiana, still I think its a bad idea.

I've run into cops that were cool and a bunch that weren't.

 

[raftman]

There's a simple solution, IMO. So we have here 2 sides of the coin. The big advantages to open carry seem to be it's more comfortable, and one doesn't have to dress a certain way just to accommodate their gun, which is all well and good. Of course, it comes with the tactical disadvantage of revealing yourself to a would-be attacker as the one to disable first on account of your being armed.

Couldn't one just take different route and concealed carry something like a P32, P3AT or similar gun? They're tiny, weigh just a few ounces and could easily be kept in an in-pocket holster and be no more obtrusive than a wallet or blackberry. Dressing around it is easy too, just have to have pockets. So you can carry a gun, without really affecting what you wear, or having it be uncomfortable, without attracting potential negative attention of open carry, without losing the tactical advantage of concealed carry. It's the way to go, the way I see it.

 

[OuTcAsT]

-Sigh- Open Carry is not all about being harrassed or stared at. At the end of the day, who really cares about what others think? Not me....

But yet you have no issue with letting others know what you think ? -sigh-


The fact remains that for some of us, we have the option to either OC or CC depending on the circumstances. I prefer to practice both. Around town, and in general OC works best for me during daily life, and CC works best for other occasions. Situational awareness is critical to your safety in either manner of carry. OC does not make you any more of a target, nor does CC make you any less of one. Carry in the manner that you are the most comfortable with, and that suits your situation best. and allow others the same courtesy.


ETA: If you live in a state or city that harasses folks for OC then it might not be your best option, a crew cut ain't gonna make it any more acceptable.

 

[inSight-NEO]

Now as far as any tactical disadvantage to openly carrying. Most garden variety thugs would rather expose them selves to the least amount of risk possible when on the job. Which means that they go out of their way to avoid the armed citizen.

To me, this assumption is not worth the risk. If I CC, Im armed and that is good enough for me. The unexpected requires much quicker reaction times/improv vs. the expected.

But unequivocally I can say that the choice to carry openly has not a darned thing to do with intimidating anyone. That's just absolutely beside the point.

Well, not necessarily based on what Ive read recently. Many here assume that the mere sight of an openly carried weapon will indeed prevent a violent act. In fact, the first quote of yours deals with this very thing. To go "out of their way to avoid an armed citizen," as you put it, proposes an intimidation factor.

 

[inSight-NEO]

The fact remains that for some of us, we have the option to either OC or CC depending on the circumstances. I prefer to practice both. Around town, and in general OC works best for me during daily life, and CC works best for other occasions. Situational awareness is critical to your safety in either manner of carry. OC does not make you any more of a target, Carry in the manner that you are the most comfortable with, and that suits your situation best. and allow others the same courtesy.

Point taken. In reference to the "not caring" statement of mine...I was referring to those who would be viewing my OC weapon...nothing more.

I, however, strongly disagree with OC not making you "more of a target." You might as well say that wearing an LE uniform and a badge does not make one "more of a target." Its sad to say, but if you want to be prepared for a criminal...start trying to think like one (not the "garden variety" criminal...rather, the type who would slay you with no more thought than he/she would give to making a sandwich).

 

[moga]

I would simply like to point out that openly carrying doesn't always attract negative attention.

I personally would not carry a mouse gun to temper the irrational fears of people who are afraid of tools. What's next? That's a slope far too slippery to allow myself to be perched on. Bottom line is that we each have to decide what is best mode of carry for ourselves given our laws, culture, convictions, and belief systems. What works for one may not work for all. Some people OC, some CC, and some do both. Hell, if you like it then I love it but the buck stops when I'm asked to accommodate people that just live in perpetual fear of every thing.

Well, not necessarily based on what Ive read recently. Many here assume that the mere sight of an openly carried weapon will indeed prevent a violent act. In fact, the first quote of yours deals with this very thing. To go "out of their way to avoid an armed citizen," as you put it, proposes an intimidation factor.

I am going to leave this subject alone after this post so that no one misunderstands our back and forth to be a bickering session. But wearing a gun is not meant to intimidate all those with whom a person comes into contact. Intimidation is projected from the person who desires it. It is up to the party with whom he comes in contact to respond to it or not.

If a person who has felonious intentions decides not to bother an armed citizen, its in all likelihood to have little to do with the intimidation factor of the sidearm. It's due to the fact that there are other, more easier marks from which to pick to get something by force that involves much less risk than tangling with an armed citizen. Criminals may be smart at times but the bottom line is that they're lazy and want their treats with the least amount of work involved. Thugs may not be scared per se but they also have a survival instinct like everyone else. Finding perforations in their attire is usually not in their plans for the day. Getting by on criminal acts that involve defenseless people is the setup for which they strive. That's my take on it anyway and that plus $1.25 may or may not get you a cup of Joe in your locale.

 

[inSight-NEO]

I would simply like to point out that openly carrying doesn't always attract negative attention.

Neither does a "blown," candy-apple red 69 Camaro...but it more than likely would.

Now, I dont live in "perpetual" fear...I just use common sense, given my particular situation. If you want to OC, fine. I prefer CC as to me the element of surprise, more often than not, trumps whats expected. If you expect something, you can prepare for it. If you absolutely know what you are up against, even better.

If I am a criminal breaking into a home and am unsure what Im up against, I cannot make the necessary adjustments until the crap hits the fan; I only have assumptions to go with. If I am wanting to "take down" a populated area, again, if I cant see any weapons..no necessary adjustments can be made unless they are simply based on assumption. If I see weapons, I can at least account for them and make the necessary adjustments based on "fact," rather than assumption. Sometimes, this may simply involve "leaving things alone." Other times (if I am so inclined), this may just involve making the necessary preparations and dealing with things in the "appropriate" manner...ie., violently, effectively, without fear and without remorse.

Im certainly no criminal and would not want to be. But, to not "think" like one can prove detrimental given any situation involving weapons and/or violence. Im thinking that the way one chooses to carry is no exception.

While I do account for the "garden variety" thugs, its the intelligent, unwavering, merciless, "been there done that" criminals that truly scare me. These individuals are what I spend most of my time worrying about and/or preparing for.

Regardless, OC if you want....thats fine by me. But, ask yourself this...If you do not OC for its assumed "violence prevention" or "intimidation" factor, why then do you prefer OC? Convenience? The ability to carry a larger firearm? Faster weapon accessibility? Simply because you can? The third choice (faster accessibility) I can understand. The others simply, IMHO, do not justify OC vs. CC...not in terms of the right to open carry, but the practicality of it.

I firmly believe that everyone should have the right to OC (and CC, of course) if they deem it necessary. But, at the same time, I just do not believe OC to be the most "prudent" of means when it comes to carrying a weapon. Keep in mind, if your weapon is more accessible (OC) you just may be more inclined to use it when you should not. It can (and does) happen.

Anyone who disagrees with/questions my viewpoints are certainly more than welcome to continue this debate via PM, as I do not wish to continue reiterating my thoughts (or needlessly extending this thread) to the point of blatant redundancy.

 

[raftman]

The thing is, it doesn't matter if people's fear is irrational, the problem is it's it's just what is the prevalent outlook is, at least in some communities. If I were to open carry in my town, I WILL attract negative attention, and it won't be just occasional awkward stares, someone will call the police too, and I probably will get arrested as well, it's just a place that is truly THAT antigun. When many people here see someone with a gun, they don't see someone with a tool, they see someone who they think is willing and able to do them a great deal of harm. It's illogical of course, I mean, one doesn't assume that anyone they see that has knuckles and just itching to punch them in the face or anyone with feet is willing and able to kick them in the stomach; but these are the realities of many cities and towns across the nation. It's not a matter of not caring what other people think, although I would argue that having every person look at you as if you are a frightening, dangerous person would be pretty upsetting after a while, it is quite liable to cause you a lot trouble.

To be fair the title mouse gun is often misleading because a .32 ACP, .380, or 9mm rounds are nothing to sneeze at.

 

[Keltyke]

Situation number two: I have a disagreement with some loudmouthed blowhard about a parking space at Wal-Mart.

When you carry a deadly weapon, you quickly learn to let the little things slide. SC law says it well when it states the CWP holder "can in no way be the cause" of the situation in which a concealed weapon is used.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

That being said, I am glad that OC is legal because should my CCW accidentally be exposed, I'm still legal.

Same here. Make no mistake, I still OC. But it's usually around my own house, in rural areas, and when I'm biking at night. Since I live in the tri-county suburban Detroit area, even though Michigan is a traditional OC state, I still have a shirt covering my carry during most daytime hours away from home. Michigan has to be one of the windiest states in the union, so though I retain a CPL, the OC allowance generally puts any "brandishing" screams coming from the unwashed masses to rest.

 

[Webleymkv]

When you carry a deadly weapon, you quickly learn to let the little things slide. SC law says it well when it states the CWP holder "can in no way be the cause" of the situation in which a concealed weapon is used.

I very well understand that one can't afford to have a temper and carry a gun too, but I've encountered more than a few people who will take great offense at very little. I don't want to give some jerk an opportunity to cause trouble for me just because he wanted my parking space or some other such nonsense.

 

[inSight-NEO]

I don't want to give some jerk an opportunity to cause trouble for me just because he wanted my parking space or some other such nonsense.

Expand on this please...How would you deal with this situation, if you were armed? If OC, would you try to make your weapon "viewable" (given that its openly visible) so as to diffuse the situation via (lets face it) intimidation or just let it go, while not even considering you have a weapon readily available...in plain sight? If CC, would you just let it go and pass it off as "beneath you" or would you still try to make it known you are armed, regardless that the weapon you hold is not quite as accessible as an OC weapon would be?

I ask because, subconsciously, I believe one would be more apt to make a weapon "known," in this situation, if they were to open carry vs. conceal carry. Not, of course, with the intention of actually using the weapon, but merely as an unspoken warning/deterrent.

 

[NavyLT]

What really bothers me is when I hear, "I would OC, but, even though it is legal, I don't want the police to hassle me."

Last time I checked, this was America, and if we are afraid of the police while engaging in perfectly legal activity, then it doesn't seem like it is going to remain the America that I defend for very long.

 

[OuTcAsT]

You might as well say that wearing an LE uniform and a badge does not make one "more of a target."

Apples to oranges? Certainly a LE Uniform has risks involved with it's wearing, because of the Situations they must put themselves in to do the job. The Firefighter, EMT, and even the guys that paint stripes on the highway face the same dangers. Hazards they must face to do their jobs.

why then do you prefer OC? Convenience?

Yes.

The ability to carry a larger firearm?

Yes.

Faster weapon accessibility?

Yes.

Simply because you can?

Yes.

You Say;

Now, I dont live in "perpetual" fear

But then you make this statement?

While I do account for the "garden variety" thugs, its the intelligent, unwavering, merciless, "been there done that" criminals that truly scare me. These individuals are what I spend most of my time worrying about and/or preparing for.

Curious.

If I see weapons, I can at least account for them and make the necessary adjustments based on "fact," rather than assumption. Sometimes, this may simply involve "leaving things alone."

Exactly, and I would venture that 99.9% of the time this is going to be the response. A criminal that is as intelligent as you fear will also be able to spot a CC person just about as easily as OC. (ask a LEO) If he is predisposed to the level of violence that you prepare for then it will be your response that will make the difference, not how you are carrying.

 

[Daryl]

InSight said:

In essence, it may be unwise to make the assumption that everyone who sees your weapon is going to be intimidated by it (or you) in the least.

I agree 100% with this statement. If a person carries a gun to intimidate others, then perhaps they should give up carrying a gun. That is NOT a good reason to carry in any way, shape, or form.

To the OP,

This must be something that's weighing heavily on your mind? You've apparently never OC's, but you're bouncing all over the 'net telling others how it should be done, if it should be done?

This looks like the same thread on a different board:

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=57056

OC really isn't that big of a deal; it's just another way of carrying a tool, and one that's more apt to be used by those in hot weather. CC can become uncomfortable in very hot weather, day in and day out.

I've held a valid CCW permit since 1995, and have been open carrying since the mid-1980's. I'm no stranger to carrying a firearm either way. I'm VERY good at concealing a firearm in light clothing (I can easily carry four handguns wearing tight fitting blue jeans and a tucked in shirt, and you'd not notice a bulge), but it IS less comfortable than open carry in a decent holster.

To me, it seems a very liberal minded thing to try to dictate how others do things. If you want to carry concealed, then by all means do. I conceal at times too, and it's nice to be able to do so.

I also open carry, and will continue to do so. The majority of folks who think badly of open carry have never tried it, so how could they possibly know?

Daryl

 

[inSight-NEO]

Apples to oranges?

Not really. Sure, LEO have the power to arrest which, along with the weapon, makes them subject to violence. But, dont think for a second that strapping on a weapon (easily visible) wont make you a mark. Sure, you cannot arrest, but you can pose a problem. Problems, such as those involving weapons, usually get solved with, well, more weapons. Surely you can see this.

Also, if you are banking on the fact that, what was it?.. 99.9% of violent criminals will flee at the sight of your gun? Well, what can I say to that other than Id love to see where you came up with those numbers.

If he is predisposed to the level of violence that you prepare for then it will be your response that will make the difference, not how you are carrying.

Well, not necessarily. Most situations like this could involve multiple officers. Need accounts? I can give at least 10 offhand. I am talking about smart, knowledgeable criminals..who are probably armed as well. How would you fare against such people? If you could approach such a situation without any problems, then maybe YOU should try out for the local PD.

Please, as I mentioned earlier, I dont want to "puke up" this thread with the same responses..over and over. Lets continue this debate via PM or not at all. If not, you go your way and I will go mine. It makes absolutely no difference to me.

 

[Webleymkv]

Quote:
I don't want to give some jerk an opportunity to cause trouble for me just because he wanted my parking space or some other such nonsense.

Expand on this please...How would you deal with this situation, if you were armed? If OC, would you try to make your weapon "viewable" (given that its openly visible) so as to diffuse the situation via (lets face it) intimidation or just let it go, while not even considering you have a weapon readily available...in plain sight? If CC, would you just let it go and pass it off as "beneath you" or would you still try to make it known you are armed, regardless that the weapon you hold is not quite as accessible as an OC weapon would be?

If said individual does nothing more that scream, yell, etc. then I would simply ignore him and go about my business (though I may stay within sight of the car until he leaves to make sure he doesn't attempt some sort of vandalism). If he decides to try to attack me, then I would meet him with appropriate force including drawing my weapon should that be necessary. I would not expose my weapon in any way unless I was ready to draw and fire. My typical method of carry isn't particularly inaccessable (OWB under a cover garment with no retention strap on the holster), so the increased speed of OC versus CC isn't really a big issue. This all applies to CC of course as I've never practiced OC for the above-mentioned reasons. Pleas don't misunderstand, I don't advocate getting in a shouting match over something as trivial as a parking space, but I'm not going to park way out in the boondocks just because someone might be offended over me taking a closer spot. I've personally seen people willing to take very drastic measures over things much more trivial than a parking space that they percieve as offensive.

In response to those who say that OC doesn't necessarily attract negative attention, that may be true. But properly executed CC will never attract negative attention, or any attention at all for that matter, unless the weapon is needed at which point attention is the least of your concerns.

With regards to OC out of comfort, I'm sure it is a bit more comfortable. However, I can conceal a S&W K-Frame .357 Magnum with a reasonable level of comfort in clothing no more exhotic than a pair of jeans and a loose-fitting T-shirt. I am reminded of Clint Smith when he said "a gun should be comforting, not comfortable."

As to being able to carry a larger gun, I can quite easily carry a 4" N-Frame S&W or Government Model 1911 in colder weather, and my K-Frame .357 is no big deal in the warmer months. I don't really feel the need to carry a handgun any larger than these be it openly or concealed.

Finally, while I agree that OC shouldn't be any big deal nor cause for hassle from the police, unfortunately what "should be" and what "is" are often two different things. There are documented cases of a great deal of "hassle" from police in Indianapolis, which is less than an hour from where I live, over OC (see post #9 in the link below).

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=342883&highlight=cuffed+stuffed

For me, in my area, the minor inconvenience of CC is well worth avoiding the risks of OC.

 

[94bluerat]

I live in SC. There is no open carry here. When We are in NC we always OC. Mostly in the mountains and on 4 wheelers, but also at OBX. Except where posted by the fed.

 

[NavyLT]

You know, it is really simple. Criminals shoot cops because, at all cost, they do not want to go to prison. Criminals shoot uniformed security guards for the same reason, because they are not smart enough to know that uniformed security guards can't arrest them.

My feeling is, they won't shoot an ordinary, openly armed citizen for exactly the same reason. They don't want to go to prison for murder, they just want an easy target. I feel so strongly about this that I bet my life on it. Why in the world would they shoot an ordinary citizen because he has a gun. Why would they not just wait for the openly armed citizen to just go away or the simple act of just moving on to another target that is not openly armed.

And why in the world would they shoot me in order to take my gun? THEY ALREADY HAVE A GUN, otherwise they wouldn't have anything to shoot me with! How many people that use the argument of getting shot in a bank robbery have been in a bank robbery? Yet, how many of us, like me, are out there because we have been victims of petty, dumb, scum criminals who are just looking for the easy target?

I'm sorry, but for me, I am letting you know right up front that if you choose to mess with me, it is pretty dang clear that your are going to be messing with 11 .45 ACP +P rounds.