If worried about defense of self and others, how much time martial arts training?

If given the choice I would choose a 45 ACP over karate any day. CCW gives you the freedom to walk/get away in order to avoid the use of deadly force. Keeping distance is critical to avoid contact and to seek cover and fire if threatened with serious bodily injury or death. In North Carolina, simple assault is not a justification to use deadly force. Only imminent threat of serious bodily injury or death...or for females sexual assault. CCW obligates me to de-escalate and avoid needless conflict. (So why did I choose to enter the forum again???):)

But I do physical training every day. Keep the heart and lungs in top shape.

I support the right to CCW in a peacefull and responsible manner.
 
I think any number of DA's would take issue with your contention that any attack on you, when you are armed, justifies deadly force if pressed.
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The converse argument is that you have to let someone beat you unconscious. Most states laws do not require that (none that I can think of). They do not require that your assailant be armed. They require that you have a fear of death or serious bodily injury. I'd like to hear the argument supporting the wisdom of letting someone knock you unconscious, take your gun kill you and who knows how many others. I'd like to hear the argument supporting fighting someone when you are armed period. Every confrontation you enter when you are armed is potentially a lethal confrontation. Everyone who carries should understand that. Are the standards applied differently? Yes, and they should be. But if someone chooses to assualt you after having been warned that you are armed, that you would just like to leave and having blocked your retreat, it is definately a lethal encounter.

You have no way of knowing the level of skill that your attacker(s) possess or for that matter what weapons they may have. You may not take a second punch. Some state have a "like force" requirement, some don't. It is important to know your state's law and case history. But to say that you have to take a beating just because you are armed is not true. Just as saying you should get involved in a fist fight while armed is folly.
 
Well, I'm a firm believer in Chi and adrenalin.

I believe that training for those forces presents a vibe to the attacker that throws off their planned attack, or, they quickly realize they are dealing with a situation they are not familiar with.

One of my martial arts teachers, in the 70's World Full Contact champ Clinton Mosley and I used to go out, and, while he didn't drink much, he enjoyed acting like he was having a REALLY good time. People made the mistake of thinking they could screw with him at this point. Simply put, most wannabe bad guys wilted under the focus of his energy, and, if that didn't work, he usually came up with a remark that totally threw them off their game, and made them realize this might be the first day of a new death.

My old boss, long time martial artist, general green beret who reupped till the war was over in Vietnam, used to have
problems because his focus and energy would scare the daylights out of the people that he worked for, and the people that he worked with. There are many ways to avoid fights, and, being prepared to fight, and die, is not something most victims are willing to do...
 
It is either/or, not both

If you are carrying, you cannot get into a physical altercation, period. No matter how good a fighter you are, the chaotic nature of a physical altercation presents a very real chance of you losing your weapon during the fight, so yes, martial arts is important, but if you are carrying, you cannot fight. I disagree that pulling a gun is "deadly force." SHOOTING a gun should always be to kill, but that should be an extraordinarily rare occurence....
 
What started all this....

People are way off the original topic...

This all started out in a different thread, when somebody asked about responses to witnessing a beating going on, that resulted in one fighter being knocked out, and the other continuing to beat on him. Scenario assumed we didn't see what started the fight, and so didn't know if the unconscious guy had done something heinous. What would we do?

My answer was call 911, and let the guy know that cops were coming. If he continued, then try to get other witnesses to assist in taking the guy down and holding him there. Failing that, it was a question of try to pull him off and lock him up, draw a weapon, or leave. I opted for pulling the guy off, but bearing in mind I'd have to keep a focus on weapon retention if things went south. The option of letting the unconscious guy continue to take a beating seemed morally repugnant.

The question wasn't about acting macho, or starting fights, and my answer wasn't about either of those things. The question also wasn't whether martial arts were more useful than a CCW, but whether CCW holders also trained physically for lesser confrontations (or, has been pointed out by other posters, for situations where a weapon can't be carried).

To those who think there is absolutely no value in MA training, I would point out that I've avoided a couple of fights with drunks by slipping punches or rolling out of a shove, and letting them lose balance. (Both were cases of mistaken identity - guys thought I was somebody else and attacked - wish I knew who my evil twin was...) In both cases, the guys opted to find something else to do. I don't like hitting or otherwise hurting people. The training, though, is very useful at times, even if only for avoiding or minimizing injury to self.

Obviously, a lot of people here feel that drawing a weapon is the only alternative if a weapon is carried (or leaving the scene). I was trained for military security many years back, where we were taught continuum of force rules. For military and / or police, who are carrying weapons, there is still a requirement to attempt lesser levels of force where feasible. For civilians, laws may vary, but we all still have to live with our own actions.

In the military, under international laws of war and under CJCS doctrine, we have theories of necessity and proportionality. While these don't directly apply to CCW, they do provide a pretty good insight into the ethics of use of force.

I do agree this offshoot of the thread has run its course, and I now see why senior members dislike the scenarios threads.
 
MLeake said:
I now see why senior members dislike the scenarios threads.
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I do not mind scenario threads as long they are reasonable in nature, provide info or produce a new slant in thinking.

However, there is a very real issue here, the use of MA and reality.

Before I ever rode a bike, Hunter Thompson wrote that a bartender with scar tissue across his knuckles can hit harder and faster than a black belt that had never been bloodied. And trust me, seeing is believing.

If the older guys owe our younger members anything, it is to dispel the colorful answer in which they might like to believe. Keep the anecdotal 'war stories' down to a practical level. Send them off in the right direction for some good info and research materials.

And the truth of the matter is that if you take your shiny new black belt to a ticked off cowboy you'll awaken a week later in a hospital. And as much as that differs from the Hollywood portrayal, the concept plays itself out in reality every night in a thousands of honky tonks.
 
My intention was NOT to get into a discussion about a scenario. Nor is my intention to discuss the merits of martial arts in potential fights. MY thread was posted about the fact that shooting is a martial art, and, it requires both training in that art, and, cross training when possible, as well.

Fitness is also a factor. Your ability to move, react, get your gun out, avoid fights, all are based in fitness. A gun is no better or worse then the person shooting it.

Also, I suspect Alexander Karelin, or Ron Morris, who have tendons and grip similar to most hydraulic vices, might be much more recoil resistant then I, giving them the ability to fire quickly a much larger caliber gun then I can...Heck, maybe my 525's at 1350 out of my Ruger Maximum feel like a 22lr to a guy that size...

Another quick story, from Franco Columbo's bio. Columbo was first a 35-0 boxer, who quit after nearly killing someone to become a power lifter, then body builder. He and Arnold met in Germany, came to the US, and trained in LA. Story goes they would have a little wine, and, for fun, pick up the front of a parked car, and put it on the sidewalk. Then, they would take the rear end of the next car, and put it on the sidewalk, and proceed down the street, making a 'snake' out of the parked cars...

Columbo is also on the top of my list as far as guys I never want to box, or fight..
 
I am concerned with home/self defense so I try and watch UFC at least twice a week. I have watched so many fights that I feel that my family is safe. If that is not enough, I like to watch fight videos on youtube and break.com.
 
The Tourist said:
Keep the anecdotal 'war stories' down to a practical level. Send them off in the right direction for some good info and research materials.
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Good point!

Personally, I’m not a big fan of martial arts and think only the very best-trained few really gain the skills necessary to likely prevail over a determined (or crazed) foe that gets the drop on them. I’m afraid that the people buying the $3000 black belt have purchased nothing more than misguided self-confidence that may even lead them into situations that demonstrate their folly…. or worse. I’m also convinced that excessive pumping of weights and seeing oneself all bulked up in the mirror is at least equally dangerous for the same reasons.

IMO, while not quite so glamorous, wrestling, as a hand-to-hand SD is superior to the punching/kicking/throwing-based martial arts.

My advice:
1. Build endurance.
2. Build strength without bulk.
3. Take hand-to-hand SD classes, work on the techniques.
4. Don’t let any of the first three get you to thinking you’re a tough guy.
5. Stay out of situations where trouble will find you (bars, clubs, house parties, etc.).
6. Get the hell away from an attacker if you can. Exit the situation if possible, even if it means looking like a coward.
 
I have watched so many fights that I feel that my family is safe. If that is not enough, I like to watch fight videos on youtube and break.com.
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A friendly word of caution. Watching fights is absolutely NOT the same as being in them and thinking that watching them makes you a better fighter is dangerous.
 
I'm six feet and 200 pounds and lift weights on a regular basis. I do not want to engage in hand-to-hand of any sort. I have back problems and one quick turn the wrong way and I'm hit by paralyzing pain and would be out of commission and unable to walk let alone fight.

Hence, the forty :D
 
Martial Arts in Movies

I always like it when some guy puts on a prelimanary martial arts display in a movie to intimdate someone who pulls a gun and blows them away;)
 
Also, I suspect Alexander Karelin, or Ron Morris, who have tendons and grip similar to most hydraulic vices...Another quick story, from Franco Columbo's bio. Columbo was first a 35-0 boxer, who quit after nearly killing someone to become a power lifter, then body builder.
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Man, I'd never want to get into it with someone like that. Like flighting a 250# python...fuggedaboudit! I have a freind who's a 52 y/o ex-cop adn active bodybuilder, deadlifts 500+ w/o straps. Grip like a hydraulic vice like you say...he grabs you, good luck getting ungrabbed!
 
How much training, Just enough to learn technique and the rest is up to you. Since we cant carry in Canukistan I have been mugged (attempted) at knife point and circle booted in another alteration. Fighting is a last resort and if you can carry do so.
 
grymster2007 said:
Watching fights is absolutely NOT the same as being in them
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While I agree 100% with your observation, you realize, don't you, that you're speaking heresy to thousands of guys from McDojos.

In the end, that's the real problem. We take these young kids, give them just enough knowledge to get them into real trouble, tell them they are invincible and then let them watch a Rambo movie. It is flatly irresponsible, culpable and self-serving to send a younger unschooled fighter (who won't back down) up against a drunken cowboy when the boy thinks he's an equal.

When Michael Keaton was still doing stand-up, he once told a joke about facing a mugger. He put his hands up in the typical "karate kid" pose and told the mugger her knew ju jitso, kung fu, karate and twenty other Japanese words.

Perhaps we should not blame the kids. Perhaps we should start using the epithet "McSensei."
 
The Tourist said:
you're speaking heresy to thousands of guys from McDojos.
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I know and I’m not doing this to get people jacked up. I speak from experience here and I’m trying to help these guys out. I’ve seen it dozens of times where a guy has a bit of training in MA, whether boxing, karate, judo or taekwondo, and through misguided self-confidence, they get into a scrap that they should have walked away from. When they run into a guy that just flat knows how to fight, they get hurt and sometimes real bad.

These days, it’s even more dangerous. As a young lad, I got into a lot of scraps and while I did face a few knives and guns , those were different times and most guys back then settled matters with their fists. Seems that these days, people would just as soon shoot you as get a knuckle bloody.

I don’t know the answers. Maybe get some training, but put at least as much effort into avoiding the situations where one might get into a confrontation. I don’t care who you are, I can guarantee that there’s some wiry 5’4” guy out there who can absolutely kick the crap out of you. I’ve seen it and I’ve lived it. And these days he might not want to get blood on his shoes, so he might just shoot you.

Just some thoughts from a late-forties guy who’s seen and experienced a lot of fighting, has seen the times change and the dangers rise. Hope nobody takes offense.
 
grymster2007 said:
These days, it’s even more dangerous...I don’t know the answers.
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I'm in the same boat. Having said that, I have the same needs for safety and security all TFL members do. And to be honest, we're all getting older.

I'm sure you remember the old missile idea of The Cold War. It was called 'MAD,' meaning mutually assured destruction. We also call this idea a "Pyrric Victory." In simple terms it means that if you are foolish enough to attack me, you will also suffer.

In many ways, I do the same thing.

I figure/know that someday I might have to face a younger, faster, stronger man with far superior fighting skills. Set your ego aside, we all know that any of us could be laying on a cold floor begging, "no mas, no mas."

It is here I use Kirk's answer to Kobayashi Maru. I cheat.

The one thing I can do better than most is sharpen. I put samurai edges on my pocket knives. Oh, I may in fact get knocked down, but to do this an aggressor will have numerous tendons severed and at least one puncture wound dangerously close to a femoral artery.

Why do I mention this? Here's a dirty little secret. I'm not the only 'boomer who's going to do this.

Why sould I get beat up because you want to dramatize the skill of your karate belt? Why should my teeth get knocked out?

"Tourist, you're a slimy, scheming, cheatin' poltroon! You intend to maim a younger guy who's spent countless hours in a dojo! And you used a second, hidden knife"

Yes, I will. As millions will. As every stevedore, biker and cowboy will. You will lay in a hospital bed undergoing numerous surgeries with just your shiny new black belt to comfort you.

Assaulting a man is serious business. And you're going to have to come to terms that in 75% of the time it will be you laying on the floor.
 
I have no illusions about my immortality, or prowness, at this point. I'm constantly reminded, on a daily basis, as I watch college and even ex-pro basketball players, and even some high school kids, of their superior physical strength.

That said, the oddest thing I find in youth is thinking that they will win, due to their youth. Having shook Ed Parker's hand, and watched a fairly old Tino Temescululo spar with
my then Sensei, some people retain, and refine their art to maximize their effectiveness. Tino kicked my sensei in the groin, lightning quick, and it worked, putting down a 6'2" 240 pound, lightning quick, former World Heavyweight Full Contact champ.

Point being, as you age, your targets, and situation changes. Old guys have to go for targets that instantly stop, or disable the attacker. Also, for this reason, use OG's want to avoid conflicts at all cost.

I find as I get older, and have to deal constantly with conflicts between large, aggressive, adrenalin pumped players that I'm developing ways of dealing, or defusing, potential situations that I didn't have prior. Problem is, conflict management isn't a high enough priority in most martial arts schools...

I'm looking at every non-violent method of avoiding violence I can, and, every weapon possible, at this point. Pepper Spray is a constant carry, ordering some new holsters, so I can quite possibly always have a gun with me, even if it's a mouse gun.

Wonder if Jack can build a .480 Ruger on a Titanium J Frame???;)
 
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