If worried about defense of self and others, how much time martial arts training?

[Covert Mission]

Lurper:

Actually, in many if not most states the use of force continuum is not applied to civilians. Most states only hold the "reasonable person" test. What would a reasonable person expect to do at the given time with the same knowledge you had.

We're debating semantics I think. Of course, you must know your local laws. In TX (iirc) you can shoot to protect personal property. Doing that in many states will get you indicted. I agree with you but stand by what I said: whatever you want to call it-- use of force continuum or reasonable person test-- the theory is the same, though it may be applied differently. Is the use of force appropriate to the threat? Being LE presumes a certain level of training and preparedness, though there are many non-LEs who are well trained and capable, certainly in empty-hand combat. Most cops aren't martial artists. Each scenario is different, and that is why being aware, and having played the "what if" game with yourself sufficiently, means you'll be as prepared as you can be for an encounter and how to respond. Again, if you have only a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

I know what you're getting at though. If someone wallops you from behind with a 2x4 (and you're still conscious), you know that another shot could be lethal, and if in fear for your life or serious bodily harm, deadly force may be appropriate. But if some jerk at the bar clocks you with a roundhouse, of course you could die or be severly injured with just the perfect circumstances, but that may not warrant deadly force. One always must try to match the proper response with the threat, but that's very subjective and must usually be decided on the fly. If you're 70 and use a walker, you're obviously at a bigger disadvantage than someone half your age, and may have to respond differently. Knowing of course, that the DA or grand jury/jury could get the last say sometimes as to whether you made a good choice, but that's the chance we take isn't it?

Cheers.

 

[Lurper]

. . . the theory is the same . . .

It's not so much semantics as concepts. But the theory is different. Some states literally require that you meet force with like force. Others like AZ and WA for example only require that you be in "fear of death or serious bodily injury or the THREAT of death or serious bodily injury."
What I have issue with is that every time this question comes up, someone wants to try to tell others that they can't shoot their assailant if he is unarmed. Or, that the law in essence requires them to take a punch, kick etc. before they can defend themselves. It varies from state to state. They typically use it to justify why civilians should carry o/c or other LTL weapons. In my professional opinion, although I cover them as options I advise against civilians carrying LTL. Just as I would advise them not to get in a scuffle or fist fight. What is paramount for them to understand is that when you carry, every confrontation is potentially lethal or justification for the use of lethal force. Therefore, the best course of action is to avoid confrontation at all cost. Because even when fully justified, your life will be different from the moment you pull the trigger on. Just as we teach that retreat is the best option even though not required by our state (AZ) law. We advise that if it is an attack on you or a loved one, use lethal force if not then dial 911 and be a good witness. Even though there are specific crimes that justify lethal force (arson of an occupied structure for example). This doesn't mean that you stand by and watch someone get beaten to death, it means that you call 911 and tell the assailant that the police are on the way. It is too easy to get into trouble when you don't know all of the circumstances of an event. We use several true stories to illustrate that, like the guy who thought he saw a sexual assault in a city park when it was really two consenting adults playing out their sexual fantasy. He chose to get involved and ended up being criminally charged.

You are correct that the standard is applied differently by gender, age, experience etc., but is has to be that way to work. It is imperative to not only know your state's laws, but case law as well.

 

[rantingredneck]

To answer the question of how much time.........not enough anymore.

In my junior high and highschool years I competed and spent 9-12 hours a week in 2 dojos. I kept that pace up for about 8 years. After that it was a few hours a week training, some teaching. In college we had an ad hoc group of martial artists from a variety of disciplines that formed a loose "club" and did some cross training together. After college I had less and less time. Old injuries (left knee hyperextension, lower back pinched nerve, dislocated right shoulder) came back to haunt me. I became certified in PIC then CPI and later NCI for work and was an instructor for a couple of years. Then promotions took me beyond where it made sense for me to keep teaching for the company. Someone else has that joy now. Then we had kids and some of you know how that goes. Never enough hours in the day.

Now I'm recovering from a second back injury, this time a break with surgery. I doubt I'll ever at this stage in my life get back in the shape I was in high school and early college. Now I'm older and slower. I'm still handy with my fists and pain compliance/controls but I keep my feet planted firmly on the ground these days. If I had to rely on empty hands or a knife I hope I could still be effective. Hopefully I'll never have to worry about it. Hopefully I'll never have to use my CCW either.

 

[Socrates]

To roundly address some of these points:
Had dinner with Ed Parker, Kenpo co-founder from Hawaii, along with Tino Temescululo, Clinton Mosley, Charles Halliday, his brother, a 7th degree Kempo and Si Lum specialist, another 5th black who loved to break bricks in Wing Chun exhibitions in China town, and, spent some really fun time in the ring with a guy about my size, who was undefeated world heavyweight full contact champ, and fought in Hawaii. Can't remember his name, because 15 round with him did serious brain damage, not kidding really, Dennis Alexio. Used to beat up Phillipino pro boxers for fun in Hawaii, at Kalakaua gym.

All that said, being able to take a punch makes the bar much higher as to what situation constitutes a threat to your life. If some Hawaiian 6'3" prison guard, who weighs 220, hooks you in the jaw twice, and you pretty much laugh it off, and, you don't go down, well, you aren't in fear for your life. Couldn't do that now.

The gym I box and train in is run by the Gracies, so I have no illusion about the merits of martial arts, vs. wrestling. In fact, I consider wrestling, the right kind, pretty near the ultimate martial art.
As far as the top of the list for guys I'd never want to fight:
Alexander Karelin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Karelin

Strength is paramount in Greco-Roman wrestling, which doesn't allow a competitor to take down an opponent by attacking his legs. That places a premium on lifts and throws. Such tactics are common in lighter weight classes, but Karelin--"King Kong" or "The Experiment" to fellow wrestlers--is the only super heavyweight with the strength to hoist a 290-lb. foe and fling him to the mat, in a maneuver the Russian calls a "reverse body lift." To execute it, Karelin locks his arms around the waist of an opponent, then lifts the wrestler like a sack of potatoes and, arching his back, heaves the hapless fellow, feet first, over his head.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,997892,00.html

Combine the toughest genetics on the planet, 15 pound baby, maybe the best training ever, some steroids, and a will that is truly scary, and 4% body fat, not to mention being as strong, or stronger, then the current World Olympic super heavyweight weightlifter, and he's a guy I would not want touching me.

To quote Ron Morris, of Power Unlimited:
"I've only been in one fight. The guy broke into the gym, stole some stuff, and tried to run over me, to escape. I grabbed on, with both hands, squeezed, and, only let go when he quit trying to escape, and, quit screaming."

Ron, a lightweight at 275 pounds at the time, could dead lift around 700 pounds. Nice to have hands that strong squeezing your arms...

 

[threegun]

All that said, being able to take a punch makes the bar much higher as to what situation constitutes a threat to your life.

If you can take 2 hooks to the head from a 220 pound man either you have a brick with ears for a head or that guy just doesn't know how to punch. The finest boxers in the world have trouble taking a single clean landing hook from an equally weighted foe. I submit that you are a rarity in both training and damage absorbing ability.

My sisters neighbor got his butt whipped by a midget (I'm dead serious). A fellow neighbor had to beat the midget off his helpless body. The moral of the story is don't get into hand to hand unless you have no other option. You just never know. From a lucky shot to running into someone who's head is as hard as yours and experience better.

Get some pepper spray if you need a less than lethal means of SD.

 

[Covert Mission]

Socrates:

Funny stuff! A mere mortal like me would no doubt HAVE to shoot someone like that who was on a rampage. I have a friend who, in his day, was 6'5" 305 and about 5% bodyfat, and was benching over 500#. He was stronger than all the Chicago Bears, with whom he worked out, except one, he says. He used to go on "'roid rages", one time pulling the door off a guy's car after the guy cut him off in traffic. I told him it was a miracle someone didn't shoot him, out of sheer terror!

Lurper:

What is paramount for them to understand is that when you carry, every confrontation is potentially lethal or justification for the use of lethal force. Therefore, the best course of action is to avoid confrontation at all cost. Because even when fully justified, your life will be different from the moment you pull the trigger on.

I agree on most of your points here and above. We're on the same side, just making different specific points. The speed that a hard look can graduate to verbal exchange, physical intimidation, blows exchanged, weapons produced, and then man down can be exceedingly quick. All it takes is the right (wrong) catalyst. Avoid, avoid, avoid if at all possible, though sometimes we know it's not.

As the Scots proverb says: "Many a man's mouth has broken his own nose." Or worse, gotten him shot, stabbed, beaten, all in the name of macho posturing or reaction.

 

[Socrates]

Ahh, the old days. Yes, I had a VERY good jaw. Had a shot at the 80 Olympic team, if we'd gone. Worked out with the number one middleweight non-pro, 253-2 at the time, Amilio Amantine, another lightweight 76-3 or so, and a heavyweight that was like Ali, Mike Dixon, who was 35-0-5 at the time.
17 years later Alexio retired me. He went after, and busted up his sparring partners. I weighed 175 at the time, and, he stuck his head in the middle of a very hard, very fast, 7 punch combination. Didn't knock him down. From there out, for 14 rounds, he was trying to hit my
heart, and, he was also trying to knock me out. He did hit me hard enough so part of my memory kind of went. People I'd worked with for 5 years, I couldn't remember their names for two-three weeks after that. Scared me enough to stop it, even boxing the Phillipino pro lightweights, I decided that was enough. If we'd been kicking, I'd either be dead, or crippled. He was very rare in that he could land full power kicks, with no pads on his shins, and, it didn't bother him. He did manage to hit the end of a rib next to my heart so hard it had a minor break/fracture.

Alexio was something like 55-1 and World Heavyweight full contact champion of the world at the time. He was very fast, and, his kicks were incredibly powerful. The Gracies might have got to his legs, or might not. If they got hit coming in, it would likely be dead wrestler, he kicked so hard.

As for the Hawaiian prison guard, he could hit, but, I saw them coming, and, rolled with them, easily. He also had a bad leg, so I easily stayed out of range after that. His uncle told me I should of worked him over, good. But, he beat him up pretty good for me, and, considering his uncle was the police officer who took my report when I called HPD after the assault, I'm glad I didn't break the guards' legs...

I was very lucky, since I had fantastic martial arts teachers
teaching me how to punch, and kick, and, NOT in the standard ways. I remember hitting bags next to Milton McCrory, former Welterweight world champ, when the Kronk gym guys came to Kalakaua gym.
We were hitting heavy bags next to each other, and he was hitting the bag next to me. I hit MUCH harder, and nearly as fast. Then Thomas Hearns stepped in, and, I quickly decided if he wanted a sparring partner, it wasn't going to be me. That guy could punch. Got together with the old timers after the Kronk guys left. We started talking about punchers, and, they said by FAR the hardest hitting guy in the gym ever was George Foreman. In particular his uppercuts sent the bags flying like, well like Mike Tyson flew when George hit him with one...

I said all that to point out that there is a tremendous difference between a highly trained, or committed, fighter, vs. someone who trains for a job situation, part time. The prison guard could hit, but, was not a trained pro or amateur fighter. He would have been pretty easy to tear up. Anybody stupid enough to try and jump someone when he had an injured knee probably should have been given a severe beating, and his uncle gave him that. However, in the back of my mind is always the thought of ending up on the ground, trying to wrestle a VERY strong guy, who outweighs you by 45 pounds. That's always enough to keep me out of a serious fight, period.

By the way, the guard was pretty impressed with my ability to take punches as well. He called me up and asked me to train him the next day. Hawaii, what a place....

 

[MLeake]

Response to Creature

Creature said: "That quote in the OP sounds like a guy who is secretly looking for a fight just to prove that he is some kind of a martial master. But as some wise man once said, there is always someone bigger, stronger and faster. I am not willing to take that gamble with my, or anyone else's, life or well being.

But then he forgets that Mr. Colt came along and made everyone equal. The implication that only those who work out and train in a martial art deserve to be secure in their person is, in my opinion, elitist and disgusting. It is obvious that he hates "to think" at all."

This is interesting. I think Creature only read the quote taken out of context. The original post was about a fight where the winner was on top of an unconscious opponent, continuing to pound on him. Question was, would any of the CCW holders intervene, and if so, how?

I made no implication whatsoever that only martial arts buffs deserve to be secure. I did point out that relying solely on a firearm would severely limit the ability to respond to a wide range of potential problems. For instance:

How do you handle your drunken cousin who insists he can drive? Let him drive off, then call the cops, hoping he doesn't kill himself or somebody else? Shoot him? Hmmm, maybe there are other options in between... How do you deal with the high school bully who is beating up your kid? Draw down on him? Or just let him beat your kid until help arrives?

For Lurper, I agree that in many situations, the best option is to leave. That isn't always an option, unfortunately. For instance, in the scenario that started all this, the unconscious guy may get beaten to death if you leave.

As far as Lurper's contention that CCW carriers should stay out of conflicts, I did indicate in my original post that I would not be happy about having a weapon in that scenario, since it would add the complicating factor of "What if I intervene physically, and the guy goes for my gun?" I also said that I really, really don't want to have to shoot anybody. So in general, I agree with Lurper, but would stipulate that sometimes leaving or remaining uninvolved are just not viable options.

Back to Creature: I don't feel any need to prove myself as a martial arts master or tough guy. I'm not a master, and I'm not particularly tough. However, I have intervened in a couple of instances in the past; one of them actually reflected the fight winner scenario to a near T, only the loser wasn't unconscious, just outweighed by 120lbs. Bigger guy was just starting to pound littler guy's head into the pavement when I decided I couldn't wait it out any longer. The other case was one I initially mistook for a mugging, but which turned out to be a domestic fight between a homeless couple. Lucky I didn't get stabbed by the wife when I turned my back on her to confront the dude, but it turned out sort of ok. At least, he was no longer kicking or punching her when they left; she refused to be taken to a shelter, and I had no cell phone with which to call the cops.

I've also swum out into a lake to retrieve a girl who swam after her dog. Of course, she ran into some trouble, and yelled for help. I dove in, although I'm not a great swimmer by any means, and frankly thought she might drown both of us. But nobody else was doing anything, aside from pointing and yelling and generally not helping. Luckily, just having another person in the water with her calmed her down enough that she could swim in under her own power, with me alongside. Her idiot boyfriend just sat on the lakeshore and watched. I thought he couldn't swim, but it just turned otu he was a jerk. The girl's dog swam in on its own, thinking it was all a great game.

I've stopped to render aid at a vehicle rollover until EMS arrived, too, although I am not an EMT. Not proving anything, just noting that some of us actually can't look at our own reflections if we don't try to help. It has nothing to do with being bigger and badder, just has to do with a feeling of social and ethical responsibility. Some of us were raised to not turn a blind eye on people in trouble.

End of soapbox speech.

 

[MLeake]

Addendum

In retrospect, there were some other points I raised in the original scenario that were not addressed in this thread, when my quote was taken out of context.

First, I advocated calling 911, and letting assailant know that police were on the way. (This was suggested in the current thread by Lurper, as well)

Second, I also advocated trying to get help from other witnesses, if possible, if use of physical force seemed necessary.

I think I made it pretty clear that entering into a one on one engagement would not be my preferred option, especially due to the added complications inherent in having a weapon on hand.

Please, please, please do not pull quotes out of context, and do not attack people based on a partial reading of a post. Thank you.

 

[Erik]

Being able to defend yourself means just that, and there are more instances where that means going hands on instead of going to guns. Remember, it is not always your choice. So that said, I advocate that those capable of doing so seek training to be able to defend themselves without the weapons they might not be justified to use or might not be able to use even when they are.

Time? As much as you can. A little a week is better than none.

 

[The Tourist]

Training, weight lifting, physical size and appearance make you less likely to be a random target for the sharks that attack and rob people, looking for easy victims.

I believe this to be true. I have been lifting heavier during the last six months and I was astounded to find I now weigh 275 pounds. Frankly, I'm glad I enhanced the engine on my bike with new cams in the re-build this winter. I hope it can haul me around.

I got blind-sided on this issue since I just had a physical and I wear the same pants. But the comment that Socrates made helps me in ways that might not be apparent at face value. It's the old case of how do you prove a "negative" in a debate?

In other words, how many times did a potential mugger decide not to act when I returned to my truck in a dark parking lot? How many times did an aggressive panhandler decide it wasn't safe to block my path?

As for MA in the true, real world sense, I tried never to use it in saloon dust ups. For one reason, you never know just how good a stranger is having never seen him fight. He could be a fourth-degree Korean champ and yet weigh only 110 pounds.

With some chagrine I must admit I am a practioneer of the lost art of furn-fu. That is, if threatened, I use all of my resources to keep you from touching me. I use "found objects," like a barstool and other bits of furniture--hence the name "furn-fu."

I don't care if you're Chuck Norris incarnate, when six or eight very angry men descend on you with barstools, pool cues and huge cut-glass ashtrays you're going to end up an ink spot.

To quote Duke Nukem, "That's going to leave a scar."

 

[Scorch]

Here's a question for the CCW holders here: If you are really worried about defense of self and others, how much time do you spend on physical fitness and martial arts training? Situations which justify use of limited force are much more common that those which justify deadly force. And I'd hate to think that people in the forum would choose to draw a weapon because it's their only viable option for a physical intervention.

Sounds like typical stuff you hear from someone who has never been in a confrontation and stiill believes in a "fair fight". First, it's not like you can go to the local Y one day and become a martial artist, it takes a lot of time to become proficient (I know this for a fact, I am a 2nd degree black belt). Second, even a well-trained martial artist can be taken out by a knife or a gun used by someone who has never stepped into a dojo. Third, the whole idea of matching force with your opponent is ridiculous. "Oh, you don't have a gun, so I'll put mine away". Be serious. The idea in a confrontation is to end it without being injured. If he has a stick, I want a gun. Being a martial artist in a barroom brawl is like the old "don't bring a knife to a gun fight" saying. You fight to win, and win quickly.

 

[Lurper]

. . . there are more instances where that means going hands on instead of going to guns.

Again, such as?

 

[markj]

if I perceive you as a possible threat, the gun comes out

In central Ill?

 

[markj]

and stiill believes in a "fair fight

I broke up a fight, guy had his thumb in the others nose, tore his face up a bit. Saw another bite a guys hand, guy grabbed inside of lip and tore it off. Fair fight? only in a ring with a ref.

Some guys can fight some cant. Simple fact. Just try to steer clear of problem areas and keep yer testosteron levels low in other words wear a thick skin and let it roll off yer back....

 

[Erik]

Such as? Such as when the fight is on before you know it. Such as when your attention is devided. Such as when you do not have a safe back drop to fire. Such as when you do not have weapons. Such as when you have to retain your weapons. Such as the fight is with someone who doesn't merit lethal force. Such as you have to figt prior to deploying the guns. Such as firearms enthusiasts are not imune to the statistical likelihood of their invlvement in arious types of assaults. (Anyone here live where shooting outnuber fights?) Such as, such as, such as...

Firearms are tools. Great tools I wouldn't care to be without when the time to use them arises. That doesn't mean they are the only tools all the time, the best ones for every situation, or the ones you will be allowed to use first.

So be prepared for physical confrontations. That's all.

 

[Erik]

Prepared to me means begins with being in reasonable shape and having an idea of how to effectively survive a physical assault.

Think of it like firearms knowledge, skills, and abilitites: If I said be reasonably prepared to defend yourself with firearms most here would agree.

---

I realize everyone's situation is different: Rural vs urban, retired vs working, loner vs family type, and certainly that schewes things. Point? Threads sometimes get drifted or dominated by folks with unusual circumstances who argue them fairly well as "normal." Who knows? Maybe that's me, by the way, in my advocation of training for the rough stuff.

 

[Hemicuda]

I have NO intention of grappling with anyone... that is why I train with and carry a gun...

 

[Lurper]

Such as? Such as when the fight is on before you know it. Such as when your attention is devided. Such as when you do not have a safe back drop to fire. Such as when you do not have weapons. Such as when you have to retain your weapons. Such as the fight is with someone who doesn't merit lethal force. Such as you have to figt prior to deploying the guns. Such as firearms enthusiasts are not imune to the statistical likelihood of their invlvement in arious types of assaults. (Anyone here live where shooting outnuber fights?) Such as, such as, such as...

Any attack that is pressed on you is justification for lethal force. If somone punches you and walks away, then it isn't. The law does not require you to take a beating before using lethal force. Nor should it. There should never be a "fight prior to deploying guns." There is rarely a "fight with someone who doesnt' merit lethal force" if you are armed. Which is the whole point

 

[MLeake]

Various responses:

To HemiCuda: You may have no intention of dealing with an attacker without using a gun. However, odds are that an attack will be ambush style, from behind, so you might want to at least do some training in escaping from grabs and in weapon retention. Attackers usually have the advantage of choosing time and place, and not to the victim's benefit.

To Lurper: I think any number of DA's would take issue with your contention that any attack on you, when you are armed, justifies deadly force if pressed. This may be true for people who are physically infirm, much smaller, etc. I'm 6ft and 215 and in reasonably good shape, and might have a hard time justifying use of a weapon vs some teenage or 20something attacker to a jury.

To Erik: Agreed. It's better to have some training than none, and there are any number of instances where a weapon is not legally available.

To Mark: Have had at least a couple instances in FL where guys have died from punches, after falling and hitting heads on car bumbers or curbs. Fights are not a good idea. As for believing in fair fights, I'm half Sicilian. Think again.

For Scorch: Not all 2nd degrees are created equal. Some are great, some went to belt mills. Beware generalizations. Several years wrestling and a lot of years aikido here, plus some kickboxing, and I avoid fights. Getting injured is not fun. Much better to buy a guy a beer, chill him out, etc. Read the whole scenario, please, then critique.