If worried about defense of self and others, how much time martial arts training?

S

Socrates

Moderator
Here's a question for the CCW holders here: If you are really worried about defense of self and others, how much time do you spend on physical fitness and martial arts training? Situations which justify use of limited force are much more common that those which justify deadly force. And I'd hate to think that people in the forum would choose to draw a weapon because it's their only viable option for a physical intervention.
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This question came up. Previously, I spent at least 3-5 days in the gym, 2-3 hours a day. I also used to shoot 3 days a week 2-3 hours a day, on a vacant police range.

Location changes have changed that. Now for work, I run up and down a basketball floor, and, work full-time as a teacher. Doesn't leave much time for other stuff. Post basketball season, I plan to go back to 3-4 days a week, probably 3, due to the gym schedule and location, and get back in the gym, hitting bags, kicking and stretching.

I'm thinking I need to do 3-4 months of running, 3-4 months of boxing/martial arts, 3-4 months of swimming, each year, as time permits.
 
Cops will tell you that trying to grapple with somebody is the very LAST thing that you should do. Check the internet out with a google search. All too often there will be a martial arts cop who is an expert in hand-to-hand combat who runs up against a skinny doper. The doper, who has to have bricks tied to his ankles to keep him from being blown away by wind gusts, will pull a blade and carve up Mr. Macho like a filet steak. I've seen it time and again. If your presence is a threat to me or if I perceive you as a possible threat, the gun comes out and I wait for your stupidity or reason to kick into place. If you walk away, no harm done. If you launch yourself at me, you've had a bad day. Never take unneccessary risks if you want to live. There are times that being nice can be an unneeded risk. I don't think that one should always point a gun at another person BUT there will be a time where discussion ends and a needed form of action will have to occur. Be ready to take action at any time or die.
 
Interesting point to ponder. I play with kettlebells and deadlifts. Not so much to get buff, but because I am overwieght and want to stay as healthy as I can.

A mangled leg has kept me from martial arts training for seven years, but I do work on strikes and low kicks infrequently.

As an armed civilian I try to avoid all conflicts. Very wary of getting into physical confrontation while armed as this could place a gun in the attacker's hands.

But your point is valid. So for me the answer is "not enough" time training in physical training.

I am trying to get my leg to where I can run (don't laugh - walking was an accomplishment after my traffic accident).

When I can do that a Judo class or two is in order.


If I can get back to training, doubt that I will take more than one class a week. When in my twenties I could do one or two brutal full contact classes per week. Some decades later one spirited Judo class per week seems a lofty goal.
 
If not for the brain, and face damage, I think boxing is one of the best martial arts skills of all. Shooting, and dealing with the stress, is very difficult. It's almost as hard as being relaxed, and fast, when someone very large is trying to rip your head off.

I've been in two, or three, what I would call serious situations. One, three very large, drunk and high black guys decided they would beat me up, due to the bowling alley manager kicking them out, and, they thinking, since I had to be nice to the guy, he was my friend. One hit me over the head with a Walther PPKS, but, in the situation, I was ready to try and kill them, and die that day. I think this screwed up their 'wired' perception, and spoiled their fun. They took off, and left me alive. I was able to take the blow to the head, requiring 15 stiches or so, without it affecting my ability to respond. Oddly enough, in the situation, I was waiting for the barrel to start to be pointed at me. If that had happened, I was ready to do as much damage as I could, before I died.

Three guys were never caught...
 
That quote in the OP sounds like a guy who is secretly looking for a fight just to prove that he is some kind of a martial master. But as some wise man once said, there is always someone bigger, stronger and faster. I am not willing to take that gamble with my, or anyone else's, life or well being.

But then he forgets that Mr. Colt came along and made everyone equal. The implication that only those who work out and train in a martial art deserve to be secure in their person is, in my opinion, elitist and disgusting. It is obvious that he hates "to think" at all.
 
It is better morally and legally to have as wide a range of options as possible short of drawing a gun. Are you going to shoot your neighbor's autistic son or a drunk friend because you can't defend yourself without a gun? There are many violent encounters that do not require or justify lethal force or firearms.
 
I spend 3 days a week working out for about an hour, with the heavy bag and calisthetics and 30 mins every other day working the ground with a 60lb heavy bag, its a work out alright! i go to the range 3 days a week for at least 1 hour...... i've been doing full contact MMA for a long time and been in plenty of "bad situations" working security at a few local night spots and there is one thing i can say about training- it's always there when you need it- you never leave it at home, I DON"T TRAIN BECAUSE I"M ON A MACHO TRIP :barf::barf::barf: or because i need to prove somthing, but because it is necessary ask around to any leo, find out if it's unnecessary to train in hand to hand just because he/she carries a gun.
 
I feel more and more vulnerable, as I'm getting towards 55-60. I'm loosing flexibility, so that normal tasks can cause muscle pain, or nerve pain, and slight pulls.

I wish I could find a doctor that would perscribe steroids, like Bobby Bonds had, that would improve my vision, and, allow me a brief 3-4 month training period with weights that might heal the damage caused by blood clots in my leg, and lungs, and reduce my fat content, increase my muscle mass, and allow me to eat a little bit.

I guess as one gets older the adrenal rush you get from fighting is something that you don't want to go to. Still, being able to move, and handle yourself in such situations is vital.

Irony is my Always carry is pepper spray, directional version, yet I've never used the stuff. Hear it works but never had to spray it at anything.

I have no intention of ever getting in a fight with anyone, at this point of my life, but, being prepared for any situation, and never having to use it is just what martial arts are for.

A good teacher would say the original starting point is lost, and, the goal becomes well being, health, and safety.
 
Well, martial arts and Karate are fine and all but it really comes down to the size of the person as well. If you're outsized to a sufficient amount it's really not going to matter how well trained you are, it's just fact. Some say a person's hands are not deadly weapons, but I gaurantee you I've seen guys that could literally kill you with their bare hands especially if they were mad enough or drunk, so it really depends. People can get killed in fights as well as with weapons, my grandmothers brother went to prison for 11 years for killing a guy in a bar fight, no weapons involved. If you feel you can defend yourself physically you should, but if it's obivious you're going to come out on the losing end you should protect yourself with whatever means necessary to do so.
 
Training, weight lifting, physical size and appearance make you less likely to be a random target for the sharks that attack and rob people, looking for easy victims.
 
Socrates,

In LE it's called the "use of force continuum". Same concept applies for non- LEs...you apply the type and quantity of force appropriate for the threat. Of course, sometimes if not most of the time, you have to adjust that "on the fly." You're trying to stop the threat (key words) once you can't disengage.

Here's a simple example of continuum:
Disengage threat (get away) > verbal commands (Get back!) > empty hands defensive (push back) > less than lethal (OC, taser) > non-lethal offensive (punch/kick/martial arts/grappling/impact weapon) > display of lethal when warranted (draw pistol and issue command to cease and comply...be careful that you're not unjustifiably brandishing, a chargeable offense) > lethal force to protect life and stop threat

As an instructor friend says, "You have to have more than one tool in your toolbox." I carry a Surefire, a knife, a cellphone, and often, a Glock. As a civilian (non-LE most of the time, when not a reserve cop), I have a plan: be a good witness, avoid and/or disengage the threat, or escalate my reaction appropriate to the threat, bearing in mind lots of enderemployed lawyers and do-gooders who will try and hang you out to dry upon use of lethal force. That's always the last option.

Having about 4 yrs of mixed martial arts under my belt makes me realize the limitations of MA. I can handle certain situations, and simple joint locks and holds, and some defensive or even offensive maneuvers, are great when the drunk at the bar gets grabby, etc. But you never know who you're going against and what their intentions are, or how they are armed or trained. There are a lot of bad dudes out there, and even a lot of black belts have gotten their butts kicked by multiple assailants or a good street fighter, especially if armed. In Brazil, they had a rash of bouncers, all skilled martial artists, killed by BGs outside nightclubs. I always disengage when possible. You also have the liability: you tear into someone with your MA training, he falls and hits head and dies or goes into a coma after, or even just gets the losing end...who's gonna get arrested and/or charged, at least initially, when the cops come (and all his friends swear you started it!). Fighting is a last resort, at least now that I am older and wiser! And bear in mind that a big percentage of fights end up on the ground, and the guy who grapples best often wins. This is also a time when you might find yourself fighting to retain your CCW pistol when the BG realizes you have it, and he goes for it. Now he's armed when he wasn't before....dohhhhhhhh!

As an older guy myself (50), I realize the value of something I studied a bit under my Jujutsu sensei: combat cane. He taught the cane much like a short staff, and the hardwood canes (which you can carry anywhere, usually, iirc) are a formidable weapon in the right hands. The strikes, hooks, joint locks, throws, etc are amazing. I definitely want to study it again. (I wish we could legally carry ASPs). BTW, I am pretty fit, but I'm not 30 anymore to my dismay. :)

FWIW...random thoughts. Cheers.
 
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Boxing is not a bad method of SD, but one of my brothers tried out for and didn’t quite make the ‘92 Olympic freestyle wrestling team (he tipped the scales at 185 lbs. and I was 220-230 then). He’s one bad Josepe and while my boxing skills are superior to his, he can whup me every time. Simply takes me to the mat and works his magic. As for martial arts, I’ve put away a number of black belts and have lost to a few. Seems to me one can buy an advanced belt in a couple of years. Those guys usually fall to someone who knows how to hurt people, exploits opportunities and keeps their head. From my experience, far more effective are the people that started with martial arts at a young age and spent 6, 8, 10 years gaining the skills to really prevail in hand-to-hand combat.

In general, I’ve found iron-pumper folks to be rather bound-up and a little too focused on their bodies to be any good at street fighting. Nothing wrong with keeping toned, but I’d avoid anything that builds bulk. Doesn’t seem to be any more effective than the “fat” bulk I carry.:)

+1 to the skinny doper guy slicing you up. Avoid hand-to-hand whenever possible.
 
One thing I forgot, and it's a biggie: situational awareness. Stay in "yellow" when out and about, be aware of who's around you and in your space, and have a plan. So many people walk around oblivious, and I don't care if you're Jet Li, Rob Leatham, or a SEAL, if someone gets the drop on you because you weren't paying attention, you're behind the power curve. Doesn't mean being paranoid...just aware. IMHO.
 
I have 2 hours of 1 on 1 hand to hand combat training a week. The techniques I have been taught were taken from BJJ, Muay thai, Kali (Escrima), it is similar to Krav Maga and Marine Martial Arts. Plus have Bodyguard and restraint training.

I also workout about 3 other times a week; strength, cardio, etc...

What I have learned through all of this is that you are still not prepared to be attacked. The difference between a fight and an attack is that an attack is usually when you the victim has no idea force is coming and the attacker has planned for this event it will be quick and unless you know what you are going to do you will get hurt... severely.

A fight is one where you are facing your opponent and know why there is a problem and you can decide whether to fight, run or reason. I will always try and reason.

Now for you that hold a CCW I belive that you should always defend yourself if attacked but avoiding a fight where possible is your best option.

RF11
 
There are many violent encounters that do not require or justify lethal force or firearms.
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If LEO or Security perhaps. Not so sure as a civilian. Here is the thing I am pondering. If I am not in fear of serious injury, why fight?

The last time (over twenty years ago) a drunk punched me in a bar I tipped the bar tender and left. If the guy did not injure me with a sucker punch why fight him?

Have been in well over a hundred scraps doing security work in D.C.. When you have to remove somebody or take them into custody there may well be a situation where lethal force in unjustified buy you still must exercise some control.


Thinking out loud here as it were, if an opponent has means intent and ability to do you grave bodily harm or fatal injury, or to another then deadly force is justified.

If they can't seriously injure you, leave. If they prevent you from leaving that goes to intent. If they are much stronger or skilled in fighting than you are we have a disparity of force.

Don't get me wrong, I think having some skills are great. Mostly I am a wrestler and that stood me in good stead against street toughs resisting arrest.

The whole point of armed civilians is that the gun is an equalizer. It allows the weak and old to defend themselves against the young and the strong. It allows the individual a means of resisting a gang or mob.

In my case, physical trauma precludes me from training in a gym or dojo. I still do what I can but my chances of kicking vanilla ice cream are bleak right now. Does that mean I should not do security work right now?

Yes it does. I don't and I won't return unless i rehabilitate my injuries to the point where I can use the whole continuum of force.

Does it mean I should not keep/carry a gun for defense? Don't think so.

Too many elderly, non-athletic, and infirm folks have defended themselves with firearms for me to even jokingly advocate that those without physical skills not carry.

OTOH while being able to scrap is a good skill sometimes, as an armed civilian you should try to avoid this. If some punk shoves you, I say let it go. Walk away with confidence. If they try to stop you it's a different game.

So to me as a civilian a confrontation that does not put me in fear of life or limb is schoolyard stuff I don't need to be involved in. Since a blow to the head can be lethal and I can't run away it would be bad if somebody would not let me walk (hobble) away.
 
Situations which justify use of limited force are much more common that those which justify deadly force.
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If you are carrying and a situation doesn't justify lethal force, you should not get involved.

There are many violent encounters that do not require or justify lethal force or firearms.
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Such as? If it's violent and an attack on you, it justifies lethal force.

In LE it's called the "use of force continuum". Same concept applies for non- LEs...you apply the type and quantity of force appropriate for the threat.
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Actually, in many if not most states the use of force continuum is not applied to civilians. Most states only hold the "reasonable person" test. What would a reasonable person expect to do at the given time with the same knowledge you had.

Know your state's laws!!
 
Lurper already posted pretty much what I was going to. Average Civilian, avoid the confrontation if possible. A lot of states still have a duty to retreat law before you can use deadly force. Thankfully, I dont (God bless Texas). Know your states laws befrore you carry and be familiar where you can and cant carry and how you are allowed to use you weapon.
 
You could be Chuck Ladell and still get KO's by a lucky punch. Its best not to go hand to hand especially if you are armed.

I posess KO power in both arms..........wupty doo. Many guys do.
 
Personally? I'm training now about 6 hours a week, which is WAAAYYY down from what I used to train. Last year, I was averaging 10-15 hours per week in the dojo (er... in multiple dojos).

That old saying, "You can never train too much"? Well, I tested that theory...
 
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